Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[Grace T.]

Nobody has to scan the internet. And also, those are not memes but reposts of some moron or mentally unstable person who originally posted that in the first place. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes and be ridiculed.

And yes, any argument that says male born trans do not have a physical advantage over females is a weak argument. It is cheating whether you admit it or not.

We have had two female-to-male players on my DD team over the years. I actually almost got into a fight with an opposing parent because of his insensitive remarks towards one of these players. Here is the difference though. She (he) plays on an elite level girls team because she was only able to make the 3rd team. This is the case for most, especially as they age. Extremely rare cases like Alyssa Thompson and Mia Gyua were able to play on the Boys side at later ages. Males have 99.9999999999999999999% worries about a F2M player affecting them, but when you put the shoe on the other foot, females are impacted at least 10 fold.

This issue is more about protecting our young females from being robbed of competing against equal competition and not the feelings of those children with mental health problems that are likely a result of abuse and poor parenting. To expand on that, the Trans population, if we take the upper end is 0.75%. To stack on top of that, trans athletes probably account 10% of that tiny population. At most we are probably talking 1 female per 1,000 females that play a sport.

In return, supporters of this idealogy, want to allow outright cheating, alienating of many others around, all setting a dangerous precedent where it is ok to lie and cheat.

For the sake of debate, if I decided I identified as a black person when I was 18, by these standards, I would be able to start a minority business and profit massively as white man through lying and cheating (even though act ignorant to that fact) even though identify as Black. Meanwhile, I am getting more opportunities than genetic Blacks because I am white, AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.

Not sure if you watched “You People” on Netflix yet, a great movie btw, there is a scene at the rehearsal dinner between Jonah Hill and Eddie Murphy. The end of the sequence ends in I know an asshole when I see one. You are that asshole.

“Likely a result of abuse and poor parenting”

you realize of course this is exactly the scumbag shittakery Eotl does. During the pandemic (yes I took names and no it won’t ever be forgiven) many of us were warning about the consequences of shutting schools and sports which we were sadly proven right about several times over. Eotl attacked my parenting and said I was responsible for my kid not being able to cope.

my Extended family has a ftm in it. I can most assuredly tell you his parents are some of the finest people out there, are better than my parents, did everything they could for their kids, and even sent him onto Princeton (come back to me when we hear where your all kids went to school). What happened to their kid had nothing to do with them any more than my kids adhd has anything to do with me. What’s more is I take personal offense to this as it’s the same kind of shittakery that was done to gay people: they must have been abused by the parents or something to turn out that way. As anyone who has ever had a black sheep child that turned to drugs or alcohol can tell you, sometimes it’s the way the kid is wired. Hey, maybe we can start blaming those kids in danger of being moved down because of mtf s because their parents didn’t take their soccer careers serious enough! Why didn’t they get Hgh, soccer trainers, supplements and peds! How dare you put your kid in a position where they are threatened as a mediocre player like this!

you have a good heart for standing up for your dd teammate. But you are showing some bias here. I hope you’ll have more foresight in dealing with it than dad 4 has shown and that the karma spirits are more kind with you on this one than what you’ve shown to parents who are dealing with a horror like this.

 

[SurFutbol]

Organizations like FIFA, NCAA, and IOC would agree with anyone for the right price.

Their support proves nothing other than that they think it's easier to throw women's sport under the bus than risk a leftist boycott.

Every once in a while, the headlines find a Rio Olympics 800m or a Lia Thomas. When that happens, the standards bodies take a half measure to fix it. But they really don't give a crap one way or the other.

That's such bs. None of these entities allow trans participation because they've been bribed and you know it. It's just how you rationalize the fact that the legitimate arguments in favor of allowing trans children to participate in youth sports far outweigh those against. The irony is that the only boycotts with respect to trans participation in youth sports have been by you whiny transphobic losers. It is you and your religious bigots who've been the ones who are whining and boycotting.

The assertion that the NCAA only took a half measure to address the Lia Thomas issue also bs given that she (and probably no trans woman) can participate in women's college swimming. What you really mean is that you believe "half measures" means anything short of ruining the lives of trans children.

 

[espola]

That's such bs. None of these entities allow trans participation because they've been bribed and you know it. It's just how you rationalize the fact that the legitimate arguments in favor of allowing trans children to participate in youth sports far outweigh those against. The irony is that the only boycotts with respect to trans participation in youth sports have been by you whiny transphobic losers. It is you and your religious bigots who've been the ones who are whining and boycotting.

The assertion that the NCAA only took a half measure to address the Lia Thomas issue also bs given that she (and probably no trans woman) can participate in women's college swimming. What you really mean is that you believe "half measures" means anything short of ruining the lives of trans children.

Who bribed them?

 

[Grace T.]

Nobody has to scan the internet. And also, those are not memes but reposts of some moron or mentally unstable person who originally posted that in the first place. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes and be ridiculed.

And yes, any argument that says male born trans do not have a physical advantage over females is a weak argument. It is cheating whether you admit it or not.

We have had two female-to-male players on my DD team over the years. I actually almost got into a fight with an opposing parent because of his insensitive remarks towards one of these players. Here is the difference though. She (he) plays on an elite level girls team because she was only able to make the 3rd team. This is the case for most, especially as they age. Extremely rare cases like Alyssa Thompson and Mia Gyua were able to play on the Boys side at later ages. Males have 99.9999999999999999999% worries about a F2M player affecting them, but when you put the shoe on the other foot, females are impacted at least 10 fold.

This issue is more about protecting our young females from being robbed of competing against equal competition and not the feelings of those children with mental health problems that are likely a result of abuse and poor parenting. To expand on that, the Trans population, if we take the upper end is 0.75%. To stack on top of that, trans athletes probably account 10% of that tiny population. At most we are probably talking 1 female per 1,000 females that play a sport.

In return, supporters of this idealogy, want to allow outright cheating, alienating of many others around, all setting a dangerous precedent where it is ok to lie and cheat.

For the sake of debate, if I decided I identified as a black person when I was 18, by these standards, I would be able to start a minority business and profit massively as white man through lying and cheating (even though act ignorant to that fact) even though identify as Black. Meanwhile, I am getting more opportunities than genetic Blacks because I am white, AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.

Not sure if you watched “You People” on Netflix yet, a great movie btw, there is a scene at the rehearsal dinner between Jonah Hill and Eddie Murphy. The end of the sequence ends in I know an asshole when I see one. You are that asshole.

Ps here’s a little science for you all. I admit it’s been at least five years since I looked at the material so I’m open to critique. But my understanding if they’ve run now several studies of trans brains both before and after any sort of hormone treatment. The fascinating thing is that the brains are different from either the cis male or cis female (going in both directions) and have several similarities to that of the preferred expressed gender. The consensus among dad4 s beloved experts is that there is something physical going on in the brain much like with adhd or autism. You literally have people walking around for example with something resembling a female brain in a male body. Can you imagine the horror of what that would do to even a half way sane person let alone someone who was been mentally disbalanced over the years from other factors ranging from bullying to drugs and alcohol?

 

[Grace T.]

Ps here’s a little science for you all. I admit it’s been at least five years since I looked at the material so I’m open to critique. But my understanding if they’ve run now several studies of trans brains both before and after any sort of hormone treatment. The fascinating thing is that the brains are different from either the cis male or cis female (going in both directions) and have several similarities to that of the preferred expressed gender. The consensus among dad4 s beloved experts is that there is something physical going on in the brain much like with adhd or autism. You literally have people walking around for example with something resembling a female brain in a male body. Can you imagine the horror of what that would do to even a half way sane person let alone someone who was been mentally disbalanced over the years from other factors ranging from bullying to drugs and alcohol?

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to new research. The findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool...

www.sciencedaily.com

Just counting down the freakout that will happen when Peds start scanning children's brains in elementary school and identify children early on who might develop into LGBTQ.

 

[SurFutbol]

Nobody has to scan the internet. And also, those are not memes but reposts of some moron or mentally unstable person who originally posted that in the first place. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes and be ridiculed.

And yes, any argument that says male born trans do not have a physical advantage over females is a weak argument. It is cheating whether you admit it or not.

We have had two female-to-male players on my DD team over the years. I actually almost got into a fight with an opposing parent because of his insensitive remarks towards one of these players. Here is the difference though. She (he) plays on an elite level girls team because she was only able to make the 3rd team. This is the case for most, especially as they age. Extremely rare cases like Alyssa Thompson and Mia Gyua were able to play on the Boys side at later ages. Males have 99.9999999999999999999% worries about a F2M player affecting them, but when you put the shoe on the other foot, females are impacted at least 10 fold.

This issue is more about protecting our young females from being robbed of competing against equal competition and not the feelings of those children with mental health problems that are likely a result of abuse and poor parenting. To expand on that, the Trans population, if we take the upper end is 0.75%. To stack on top of that, trans athletes probably account 10% of that tiny population. At most we are probably talking 1 female per 1,000 females that play a sport.

In return, supporters of this idealogy, want to allow outright cheating, alienating of many others around, all setting a dangerous precedent where it is ok to lie and cheat.

For the sake of debate, if I decided I identified as a black person when I was 18, by these standards, I would be able to start a minority business and profit massively as white man through lying and cheating (even though act ignorant to that fact) even though identify as Black. Meanwhile, I am getting more opportunities than genetic Blacks because I am white, AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.

Not sure if you watched “You People” on Netflix yet, a great movie btw, there is a scene at the rehearsal dinner between Jonah Hill and Eddie Murphy. The end of the sequence ends in I know an asshole when I see one. You are that asshole.

There are so many transphobic premises from your whiny diatribe that it is hard to know where to start.

First, it is not cheating because the rules allow it. It is also not deception. The coaches know. The clubs know. The teammates know. The leagues know. In fact, everyone knew in Lia Thomas' case, giving all of you transphobic whiners the identity of the person to direct your death threats and hate mail. With trans youth, however, sometimes the opposing players don't know, or their shitbag transphobic parents, but that mere fact pretty clearly destroys your sad and pathetic assertion that trans participation results in an "unfair" advantage. But, as the Lia THomas situation shows, it is also important to not broadcast their status to the opposing team's transphobic daddies like you because we know people like you will harass and send death threats to children who deserve better. In fact, we know your kind will harass and send death threats to people you apparently concede deserve empathy due to the difficult lives they have lived. In fact, we all know about the one crazy guy at this site who tried to out an 11 year old girl who believed was trans, and humiliate her publicly at both the tournament and in this thread. In other words, there are important privacy interests that support ECNL and CIF policy of limiting disclosure to only those who have a need to know, and not broadcasting it to shitbag dads like you, many of whom will threaten to kill children. Perhaps the most important point to be gleaned from not telling the opposing team's transphobic daddies, however, is that if you can't identify a trans player on the field - and no one here has - it is a joke to claim that they have an "unfair" advantage. You and your friends just call their participation cheating" because you hate trans children and aren't getting your way.

Your assumption that being trans is a "mental health problem" and the result of abuse and poor parenting is also incredibly transphobic. Regardless, your lack of empathy is, well, not surprising.

Nor is your complete lack of logic skills. Your assertion that identifying as black would allow you to start a minority business and "profit massively" is also blatantly racist, but I will focus on it being a terrible example. The reason it is a terrible example is because you would actually be cheating and deceiving people, whereas the trans players are actually following the rules. If a government entity allowed participation as an MBE to those who merely "identify" as black, you disclosed that you were merely "identifying" as black, and you were then allowed to participate, that would be an equivalent comparison. But they do not for obvious reasons, which are the same obvious reasons that the NCAA, the IOC and women's professional sports leagues make it so difficult, and impossible in most circumstances, for a trans woman to participate.

What is nuts about your "comparison", however, is that you are ignoring the much better comparison with arguments being made by your transphobic friends. They claim that trans participation in youth sports should be barred because transphobic people "might" abuse it by pretending to be trans so they can win trophies. This is about as stupid as saying that we should get rid of MBE programs because racists might similarly abuse the process by pretending to be black so they can win government grants. Now do you understand how freakin' stupid and ridiculous your bs arguments are?

Ultimately, the argument against trans participation in youth sports always boils down to "I hate trans people and will make whatever excuse it takes to rationalize it."

 

[thirteenknots]

I think the main factor limiting this is the fact that most trans athletes are decent people.

They know that they have a huge advantage over female athletes and have no desire
to beat up on some girls to win a trophy. < -BINGO !!! 100%

My guess is that most quality mtf trans athletes end up on coed college club teams, and
you never hear about them.

The TRUTH.

 

[thirteenknots]

There are so many transphobic premises from your whiny diatribe that it is hard to know where to start.

First, it is not cheating because the rules allow it. It is also not deception. The coaches know. The clubs know. The teammates know. The leagues know. In fact, everyone knew in Lia Thomas' case, giving all of you transphobic whiners the identity of the person to direct your death threats and hate mail. With trans youth, however, sometimes the opposing players don't know, or their shitbag transphobic parents, but that mere fact pretty clearly destroys your sad and pathetic assertion that trans participation results in an "unfair" advantage. But, as the Lia THomas situation shows, it is also important to not broadcast their status to the opposing team's transphobic daddies like you because we know people like you will harass and send death threats to children who deserve better.

How do you miss 5' 9" to 6' 1" (Height varies according to source)
Wingspan (Approx Arm Length) 74"
Average Womans (Approx Arm) 69"
That is an advantage of 5" to the touch pad, just that.
It holds true in whatever sport you compare.

In fact, we know your kind will harass and send death threats to people you apparently concede deserve empathy due to the difficult lives they have lived. In fact, we all know about the one crazy guy at this site who tried to out an 11 year old girl who believed was trans, and humiliate her publicly at both the tournament and in this thread. In other words, there are important privacy interests that support ECNL and CIF policy of limiting disclosure to only those who have a need to know, and not broadcasting it to shitbag dads like you, many of whom will threaten to kill children. Perhaps the most important point to be gleaned from not telling the opposing team's transphobic daddies, however, is that if you can't identify a trans player on the field - and no one here has - it is a joke to claim that they have an "unfair" advantage. You and your friends just call their participation cheating" because you hate trans children and aren't getting your way.

Your assumption that being trans is a "mental health problem" and the result of abuse and poor parenting is also incredibly transphobic. Regardless, your lack of empathy is, well, not surprising.

Nor is your complete lack of logic skills. Your assertion that identifying as black would allow you to start a minority business and "profit massively" is also blatantly racist, but I will focus on it being a terrible example. The reason it is a terrible example is because you would actually be cheating and deceiving people, whereas the trans players are actually following the rules. If a government entity allowed participation as an MBE to those who merely "identify" as black, you disclosed that you were merely "identifying" as black, and you were then allowed to participate, that would be an equivalent comparison. But they do not for obvious reasons, which are the same obvious reasons that the NCAA, the IOC and women's professional sports leagues make it so difficult, and impossible in most circumstances, for a trans woman to participate.

What is nuts about your "comparison", however, is that you are ignoring the much better comparison with arguments being made by your transphobic friends. They claim that trans participation in youth sports should be barred because transphobic people "might" abuse it by pretending to be trans so they can win trophies. This is about as stupid as saying that we should get rid of MBE programs because racists might similarly abuse the process by pretending to be black so they can win government grants. Now do you understand how freakin' stupid and ridiculous your bs arguments are?

Ultimately, the argument against trans participation in youth sports always boils down to "I hate trans people and will make whatever excuse it takes to rationalize it."

Denial doesn't make it Right.

It's CHEATING.

You know it.

Post # 683 is correct.

 

[thirteenknots]

[Ultimately, the argument against trans participation in youth sports
always boils down to "I hate trans people and will make whatever excuse
it takes to rationalize it.]"**

** The Above bracketed statement by SFb is a flat out disgusting LIE !

 

[dad4]

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to new research. The findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool...

www.sciencedaily.com

Just counting down the freakout that will happen when Peds start scanning children's brains in elementary school and identify children early on who might develop into LGBTQ.

Why freakout? That research has nothing to do with pediatricians screening 3rd graders. The point is more that academic contests and programs should include transgirls among girls and transboys among boys.

But we are talking about athletic contests, not academic ones. For athletic contests, XY and XX are what matters. XY athletes, of all kinds, belong in the XY divisions.

(Don't give me some tripe about the mental aspect of the game. Plenty of excellent athletes are dumb as rocks.)

 

[Grace T.]

Why freakout? That research has nothing to do with pediatricians screening 3rd graders. The point is more that academic contests and programs should include transgirls among girls and transboys among boys.

But we are talking about athletic contests, not academic ones. For athletic contests, XY and XX are what matters. XY athletes, of all kinds, belong in the XY divisions.

(Don't give me some tripe about the mental aspect of the game. Plenty of excellent athletes are dumb as rocks.)

Errr....having a kid who is as dumb as a rock in the mental aspects of the game, I resemble that remark. Further, it's clear that you've never been around a teenage boys soccer team because they are all dumb as rocks. I am literally shocked at how truly great some teams would be if the kids stopped doing stupid shit. Yesterday I was literally watching a high level boy in a scrimmage dribble the ball across the 18 instead of passing it, lose it, and then have it banged right back at the goalkeeper. Further, I think at least among boys this is the height of frustration for parents, and why they in turn do stupid stuff like yell at them "shoot it".

Double err.....you completely missed the point of the studies. It like literally has completely flown over your head. The point of the studies is that, like being gay or adhd, this isn't something people can control. It's not that they want to "pretend to be a girl". It's literally they have something like a girls brain hard wired into their bodies. Now, we can have the argument, which is a scientific one, over whether transition is the best course of action for them and when...the same as we can have the argument over whether you should medicate an ADHD child. But like ADHD, there is plenty of evidence to suggest this is an evolutionary quirk that to the extent it deviates from what we consider the mean (the same as an ADHD child), which means there's an argument that it should be treated as a disability complete with the balance act that was done there (e.g., we don't mandate everyone put disabled accessible bathrooms in their homes, but new business constructions are required to have disabled bathrooms).

Triple errr....you got to get your script straight. If "XY and XX" are what matters, then your logic leads you to a place where FTM are welcome in the girls division for as long as they like, even if they are taking testosterone.

Final err....and I can't believe given how smart you profess to be in math you don't see where this logically leads...if you can tell from early brain scans if boys and girls have a tendency to LGBTQ, certain "correct thinking" individuals might take it upon themselves as part of their expert loving wisdom to scan boys and girls for a tendency to be LGBTQ early on under the grounds that such children may need special nurturing and support as they grow older, and to take parent attempts at dissuading them from being LGBTQ and label them abuse that requires the intervention of the state.

 

[dad4]

Errr....having a kid who is as dumb as a rock in the mental aspects of the game, I resemble that remark. Further, it's clear that you've never been around a teenage boys soccer team because they are all dumb as rocks. I am literally shocked at how truly great some teams would be if the kids stopped doing stupid shit. Yesterday I was literally watching a high level boy in a scrimmage dribble the ball across the 18 instead of passing it, lose it, and then have it banged right back at the goalkeeper. Further, I think at least among boys this is the height of frustration for parents, and why they in turn do stupid stuff like yell at them "shoot it".

Double err.....you completely missed the point of the studies. It like literally has completely flown over your head. The point of the studies is that, like being gay or adhd, this isn't something people can control. It's not that they want to "pretend to be a girl". It's literally they have something like a girls brain hard wired into their bodies. Now, we can have the argument, which is a scientific one, over whether transition is the best course of action for them and when...the same as we can have the argument over whether you should medicate an ADHD child. But like ADHD, there is plenty of evidence to suggest this is an evolutionary quirk that to the extent it deviates from what we consider the mean (the same as an ADHD child), which means there's an argument that it should be treated as a disability complete with the balance act that was done there (e.g., we don't mandate everyone put disabled accessible bathrooms in their homes, but new business constructions are required to have disabled bathrooms).

Triple errr....you got to get your script straight. If "XY and XX" are what matters, then your logic leads you to a place where FTM are welcome in the girls division for as long as they like, even if they are taking testosterone.

Final err....and I can't believe given how smart you profess to be in math you don't see where this logically leads...if you can tell from early brain scans if boys and girls have a tendency to LGBTQ, certain "correct thinking" individuals might take it upon themselves as part of their expert loving wisdom to scan boys and girls for a tendency to be LGBTQ early on under the grounds that such children may need special nurturing and support as they grow older, and to take parent attempts at dissuading them from being LGBTQ and label them abuse that requires the intervention of the state.

I adopted the terms XX and XY because I got really sick of fools deliberately misinterpreting my words every time I said boy or girl. So I decided to rub it in and directly refer to the truth of the situation.

If you don't like the distinction, then talk to the fools who keep deliberately misinterpreting other people's words.

This begins with you. You know what I mean by XX division (XX humans not on T) and XY division (All XY humans, plus XX humans on T). Discuss it, or don't. But don't waste time with childish word games.

 

[Grace T.]

I adopted the terms XX and XY because I got really sick of fools deliberately misinterpreting my words every time I said boy or girl. So I decided to rub it in and directly refer to the truth of the situation.

If you don't like the distinction, then talk to the fools who keep deliberately misinterpreting other people's words.

This begins with you. You know what I mean by XX division (XX humans not on T) and XY division (All XY humans, plus XX humans on T). Discuss it, or don't. But don't waste time with childish word games.

You just don't like it pointed out at you because it points out that you have deliberately gone with a test that comes to your desired end result: shaft the trans regardless of the direction they are going.

Further, you know my background. I resent the "childish" part. Words matter. My profession is built on it. Which is why you've come under attack for the insensitive remarks you've made here, or the authoritarian ones you made in the COVID forum (yes, that's a bat I'm going to constantly beat you with from now until eternity, at least as long as we are both on this forum).

Finally, you could get to your desired conclusion by making it a testosterone and testosterone impact on athletic performance. That's where the real science comes in: can you ever extend an accommodation to the point where it is balanced so that MTF can compete in the F division and FTM can compete in the M division, at least in the divisions where we have decided it matters by testing. The answer may differ from sport to sport. It's possible the answer is going to be "no" for some sport, which leads you to the logical conclusion of a separate division funded by scholarships taken from the F and M, not "screw the trans people" who can't compete in the men's divisions either.

 

[dad4]

You just don't like it pointed out at you because it points out that you have deliberately gone with a test that comes to your desired end result: shaft the trans regardless of the direction they are going.

Further, you know my background. I resent the "childish" part. Words matter. My profession is built on it. Which is why you've come under attack for the insensitive remarks you've made here, or the authoritarian ones you made in the COVID forum (yes, that's a bat I'm going to constantly beat you with from now until eternity, at least as long as we are both on this forum).

Finally, you could get to your desired conclusion by making it a testosterone and testosterone impact on athletic performance. That's where the real science comes in: can you ever extend an accommodation to the point where it is balanced so that MTF can compete in the F division and FTM can compete in the M division, at least in the divisions where we have decided it matters by testing. The answer may differ from sport to sport. It's possible the answer is going to be "no" for some sport, which leads you to the logical conclusion of a separate division funded by scholarships taken from the F and M, not "screw the trans people" who can't compete in the men's divisions either.

Shaft the trans kids? What, if you don’t get to play against weaker players then you’re getting shafted?

The basic standard is that you don’t get to play down. I don’t call it a T standard because then you’d make up some bullshit story about an imaginary testosterone testing regimen for all youth sports players. Or you’d try to bring up very rare genetic conditions that are beside the point.

So I call it an XX and XY standard, with two exceptions. XX athletes on extra T count as XY for purposes of league placement. XY athletes on extra T don’t get to play anywhere because it’s cheating.

As for the science on T, you’re really talking science fiction. There is no treatment which makes an XY human the athletic equivalent of an XX human. Even if they someday develop that kind of treatment, neither you nor I would want to require it as a condition for participation in a youth sports league. So why insist on changing the topic to something which does not exist, and wouldn’t be required if it did?

 

[thirteenknots]

It's possible the answer is going to be "no" for some sport, which leads you to the logical conclusion of a separate division funded by scholarships taken from the F and M, not "screw the trans people" who can't compete in the men's divisions either.

Answer this honestly.

Why can't FTM compete " Competitively" in men's sports ?
Use Soccer as an example for instance......

 

[Grace T.]

Shaft the trans kids? What, if you don’t get to play against weaker players then you’re getting shafted?

The basic standard is that you don’t get to play down. I don’t call it a T standard because then you’d make up some bullshit story about an imaginary testosterone testing regimen for all youth sports players. Or you’d try to bring up very rare genetic conditions that are beside the point.

So I call it an XX and XY standard, with two exceptions. XX athletes on extra T count as XY for purposes of league placement. XY athletes on extra T don’t get to play anywhere because it’s cheating.

As for the science on T, you’re really talking science fiction. There is no treatment which makes an XY human the athletic equivalent of an XX human. Even if they someday develop that kind of treatment, neither you nor I would want to require it as a condition for participation in a youth sports league. So why insist on changing the topic to something which does not exist, and wouldn’t be required if it did?

No we just don’t care about playing down because otherwise we wouldn’t have age bands (note it’s been pointed out to you in high school soccer we in fact don’t). You don’t want the 13 year old kid playing up either against the 18 year old. Just as you say it’s unfair to have the ftm play against the cis f, why isn’t it unfair to have all trans play against the cis m who it’s been shown here (unrefuted by you) have an advantage due to having been through puberty and currently on testosterone.

for someone who professes to love data you are really bad at handling it. First, it doesn’t have to be identical, just close enough. Second, theshift towards f isn’t the only concern…the other is how far of a shift towards m. Third, if you don’t think any accommodation including the rebalanced ncaa rules are ever enough ok I’m open to that. Present your data. Show me the study. Fourth, make sure that data is tailored to the individual sport. I think there’s a case that can be made on the data so far presented for things like wrasling track and swimming but for a team sport the impact will be more minimal. Fifth, make sure the data is tailored for the individual case: starting point, time on treatment, time treatment started, surgical status, time from surgery.

as far as I know (and I’m not that deep into the science…no where near as much as Covid) they haven’t measured this to satisfaction yet. It’s a process the experts are weighing right now so we don’t have the scientific numbers (since it will have to be done for every sport for every individual case). At least you haven’t presented anything so far beyond some broad generalizations that show the given and admitted starting point that after the teen years men as a whole have an instrinsic advantage over women. None of that has been quantified so now is your put up or shut up moment. Waiting.

 

[Grace T.]

Answer this honestly.

Why can't FTM compete " Competitively" in men's sports ?
Use Soccer as an example for instance......

Because the same data that you rely on show that men have an athletic advantage over women shows that a ftm does not fully catch up to the cis men (bell curve to bell curve) or a mtf does not maintain the same performance relative to a cis man (bell curve to bell curve). I posted the articles before. The fact is the trans are in neither direction equivalent to or competive to (bell curve to bell curve) cis men which means that’s not a good answer to the problem either

 

[Grace T.]

No we just don’t care about playing down because otherwise we wouldn’t have age bands (note it’s been pointed out to you in high school soccer we in fact don’t). You don’t want the 13 year old kid playing up either against the 18 year old. Just as you say it’s unfair to have the ftm play against the cis f, why isn’t it unfair to have all trans play against the cis m who it’s been shown here (unrefuted by you) have an advantage due to having been through puberty and currently on testosterone.

for someone who professes to love data you are really bad at handling it. First, it doesn’t have to be identical, just close enough. Second, theshift towards f isn’t the only concern…the other is how far of a shift towards m. Third, if you don’t think any accommodation including the rebalanced ncaa rules are ever enough ok I’m open to that. Present your data. Show me the study. Fourth, make sure that data is tailored to the individual sport. I think there’s a case that can be made on the data so far presented for things like wrasling track and swimming but for a team sport the impact will be more minimal. Fifth, make sure the data is tailored for the individual case: starting point, time on treatment, time treatment started, surgical status, time from surgery.

as far as I know (and I’m not that deep into the science…no where near as much as Covid) they haven’t measured this to satisfaction yet. It’s a process the experts are weighing right now so we don’t have the scientific numbers (since it will have to be done for every sport for every individual case). At least you haven’t presented anything so far beyond some broad generalizations that show the given and admitted starting point that after the teen years men as a whole have an instrinsic advantage over women. None of that has been quantified so now is your put up or shut up moment. Waiting.

Ps there is a testosterone protocol for some sports on the collegiate and athletic levels. Indeed some super rare genetic and chemical cases have had to go on testosterone blockers as a result which screws up your nice neat xy xx standard. It’s because at that level it matters. Your genetics test is just a bullshit way to get to your desired discriminatory result because the testosterone test, if we care about fairness, is enough.

 

[dad4]

Ps there is a testosterone protocol for some sports on the collegiate and athletic levels. Indeed some super rare genetic and chemical cases have had to go on testosterone blockers as a result which screws up your nice neat xy xx standard. It’s because at that level it matters. Your genetics test is just a bullshit way to get to your desired discriminatory result because the testosterone test, if we care about fairness, is enough.

It's not nearly as messy as you think. Most of the fuss is over a single genetic condition which causes some XY humans to have undeveloped genitalia, but normal male testosterone.

Biologically, these are men with a birth defect. And, since they are XY with high T, either test gives you the same result.

The catch with a T test is that it is a very expensive way to get the same information. Maybe you can think of a natural condition where the two tests differ. The only example I can think of is an XX athlete taking T shots.

 

[Grace T.]

It's not nearly as messy as you think. Most of the fuss is over a single genetic condition which causes some XY humans to have undeveloped genitalia, but normal male testosterone.

Biologically, these are men with a birth defect. And, since they are XY with high T, either test gives you the same result.

The catch with a T test is that it is a very expensive way to get the same information. Maybe you can think of a natural condition where the two tests differ. The only example I can think of is an XX athlete taking T shots.

Doesn’t matter. If there’s an exception you are either faced with testing (genetics or t) or you get into an argument over how small the exception is that it doesn’t matter. That’s not what you are doing though: you are using the two tests combined because that’s the only way it gets you to your desired result, and at least with youth sports, subjecting only the trans people to it.

 

[dad4]

Doesn’t matter. If there’s an exception you are either faced with testing (genetics or t) or you get into an argument over how small the exception is that it doesn’t matter. That’s not what you are doing though: you are using the two tests combined because that’s the only way it gets you to your desired result, and at least with youth sports, subjecting only the trans people to it.

Everyone is subject to it. If you are an XY athlete, you have to go to the XY division. It doesn't matter whether you are gay, straight, trans, or furry. The rule is the same for everyone.

You're trying very hard to turn this into a debate over testing protocols. There is no need. People know their child's birth gender. You can just ask.

And, for the very few people who would lie about it, you can kick them out, same as we kick out people who lie about their child's age. We don't have some hugely complex system for enforcing age limits by measuring telemeres. We just kick out the cheaters if and when we find them.