Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

dad4 said:
Everyone is subject to it. If you are an XY athlete, you have to go to the XY division. It doesn't matter whether you are gay, straight, trans, or furry. The rule is the same for everyone.

You're trying very hard to turn this into a debate over testing protocols. There is no need. People know their child's birth gender. You can just ask.

And, for the very few people who would lie about it, you can kick them out, same as we kick out people who lie about their child's age. We don't have some hugely complex system for enforcing age limits by measuring telemeres. We just kick out the cheaters if and when we find them.
Click to expand...

So now you are back to ignore the unicorns (the cheater...they can just hide among the horses), the zonkies (the nonbinary who chose not to disclose a gender), and now the dragons (the genetically and chemically unusual), but death to the pegasi. It's easy to tell them apart anyways....they are the ones flying up there. Nice. And you wonder why you get accused of bias.

What's worse "if and when we find them" sounds an awful like the Utah witchhunt. Nice you are so prepared to subject the innocent cis girl to that.

Gotta say, I keep wondering when the end of the pit of horribles finally hits with you, but so far there doesn't seem to be a bottom. There must be one. I just keep listening for the "thud" and get surprised when I don't hear it.
 
@SurFutbol - All the fair points you sometimes have are always then throw out and discredited by your following assumptions about people that disagree with you. That is a classic sign of an extremist, whether right or left.

Oh, just because you are “allowed” doesn’t mean you are not cheating. That is just a scapegoating answer.

You really said my identifying as a Black person and making massive profits because I am actually white and would benefit from my Old White Male benefits? That is kind of the big subject lately and I think it’s crappy that Black business owners don’t get the same support. I’m sorry you can’t see the parallels of my example being a male can identify as a female and then participate as a female ——-> a white man identifies as a black man and then participates as a black man. One of which is ok, the other is not. If we are all about equality, then both should either be ok or both should not.

Next, not sure how supporters of this initiative keep saying there is no advantage???

Are men born with bigger hearts?
Are men bourn with larger lungs?
Do men have more bone and muscle density?
Are men born with faster hand/eye coordination?
Are men born with faster twitch muscles?

Anyway, from what I can tell, at least @Grace T. can debate like a normal person even though we may disagree however you @SurFutbol and a few others here are just some straight up ugly ugly people. I surely hope you don’t walk around judging people the way you do here. The only thing you know for sure about me is that I do not support M2F playing female sports, no matter the circumstance. That does not give you the right to guess what religon I might be (by the way, funny you strayed away from my Islamic points), it does not give you the right to assume my position on being LGBTQ+ or my politics. You do not know where I grew up, the people who I am friends with, so on, so forth. You do not know me.

This is what I know about you. You hate Christians, Muslims, Trumpers and staunch conservatives. Your posts actually say that to the very word. I also know you judge people based off one opinion that they don’t agree with you on. That is not what I consider to associated with a kind person. Its funny how you are allowed to act this way which is very similar to a racist but the racist is not allowed to speak (and for good reason!!!) but make no mistake, you are riding shotgun with that racist.

Well, it was a fun visit. I’ll check back in a few months.
 
MARsSPEED said:
@SurFutbol - All the fair points you sometimes have are always then throw out and discredited by your following assumptions about people that disagree with you. That is a classic sign of an extremist, whether right or left.

Oh, just because you are “allowed” doesn’t mean you are not cheating. That is just a scapegoating answer.

You really said my identifying as a Black person and making massive profits because I am actually white and would benefit from my Old White Male benefits? That is kind of the big subject lately and I think it’s crappy that Black business owners don’t get the same support. I’m sorry you can’t see the parallels of my example being a male can identify as a female and then participate as a female ——-> a white man identifies as a black man and then participates as a black man. One of which is ok, the other is not. If we are all about equality, then both should either be ok or both should not.

Next, not sure how supporters of this initiative keep saying there is no advantage???

Are men born with bigger hearts?
Are men bourn with larger lungs?
Do men have more bone and muscle density?
Are men born with faster hand/eye coordination?
Are men born with faster twitch muscles?

Anyway, from what I can tell, at least @Grace T. can debate like a normal person even though we may disagree however you @SurFutbol and a few others here are just some straight up ugly ugly people. I surely hope you don’t walk around judging people the way you do here. The only thing you know for sure about me is that I do not support M2F playing female sports, no matter the circumstance. That does not give you the right to guess what religon I might be (by the way, funny you strayed away from my Islamic points), it does not give you the right to assume my position on being LGBTQ+ or my politics. You do not know where I grew up, the people who I am friends with, so on, so forth. You do not know me.

This is what I know about you. You hate Christians, Muslims, Trumpers and staunch conservatives. Your posts actually say that to the very word. I also know you judge people based off one opinion that they don’t agree with you on. That is not what I consider to associated with a kind person. Its funny how you are allowed to act this way which is very similar to a racist but the racist is not allowed to speak (and for good reason!!!) but make no mistake, you are riding shotgun with that racist.

Well, it was a fun visit. I’ll check back in a few months.
Click to expand...
The question isn't "no advantage". I haven't seen anyone argue that here. The question is "how much of one" from the base line (which may start differently from a cis male), is there anything we can do about it to make sure the advantage isn't extreme, how much of an impact does that advantage really have on the particular sport (rastling lots, shooting little maybe even negative), what about the other way (what does treatment do from the other direction) and how much of an impact does that have on the particular sports. As before, it's a complicated question with no good answer.

Also the distinction with race is really simple. The science holds that this, like ADHD or autism or even being gay, is a natural condition which deviates from the mean. Race is not (at least not under the present science) since it is part melatonin and part cultural construct. If we want to get really messy there are some genetic conditions that may correlate to particular peoples within a race (such as the masai being really tall, but it doesn't follow that therefor all dark skinned people are tall). As far as I'm aware, identifying as another race isn't a condition which has been shown to be associated with differences in the brain.
 
Grace T. said:
The question isn't "no advantage". I haven't seen anyone argue that here. The question is "how much of one" from the base line (which may start differently from a cis male), is there anything we can do about it to make sure the advantage isn't extreme, how much of an impact does that advantage really have on the particular sport (rastling lots, shooting little maybe even negative), what about the other way (what does treatment do from the other direction) and how much of an impact does that have on the particular sports. As before, it's a complicated question with no good answer.

Also the distinction with race is really simple. The science holds that this, like ADHD or autism or even being gay, is a natural condition which deviates from the mean. Race is not (at least not under the present science) since it is part melatonin and part cultural construct. If we want to get really messy there are some genetic conditions that may correlate to particular peoples within a race (such as the masai being really tall, but it doesn't follow that therefor all dark skinned people are tall). As far as I'm aware, identifying as another race isn't a condition which has been shown to be associated with differences in the brain.
Click to expand...

Thats fair. I honestly could care less about who wants to identify as what and nor do I judge or dislike them for that.

I do care about M2F playing female sports. Obviously it’s a debate with strong arguments from each side. It will continue to be debated.

What I am absolutely against is any mutilation and hormone treatments of the body before age 18. Again, I don’t care what kids want to identify as but destroying your body before you are an adult is not something I will ever agree with.
 
MARsSPEED said:
Thats fair. I honestly could care less about who wants to identify as what and nor do I judge or dislike them for that.

I do care about M2F playing female sports. Obviously it’s a debate with strong arguments from each side. It will continue to be debated.

What I am absolutely against is any mutilation and hormone treatments of the body before age 18. Again, I don’t care what kids want to identify as but destroying your body before you are an adult is not something I will ever agree with.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I really hear you on this. It's a good argument, which is why I think most of us agree that the incentives shouldn't be to push kids to do it before 18 (which is also why I don't think that we should push kids who may be desperate to do this further by banning them in youth sports where we don't care about dope testing). It's such a big decision and they may very well wind up regretting it, as quite a few who have transitioned have publicly declared. On the other hand, there are cases (I've written about one I encountered early on my legal career) which the case is just very very obvious and it's very evident that something is truly off there and you are sentencing them to teen years which torment them and then to being derided as "obvious" by folks like dad4 because they didn't do something about it during puberty. The ma vie en rose cases. Then, there are the Caityln Jenners of the world that come to the realization very late in life. It's horrible and sad. Just like ADHD. No good solution.

I hear you BTW on the entire kids consent and 18 thing. It's ridiculous that there are different age of consents being bandied about for abortion, transition, voting, drinking, serving in the military and getting guns. You are either an adult capable of making decisions or you aren't. I for one think the entire thing should be kicked up to 21.
 
I think arguing with thirteenknots, crush, and Marsspeed is futile. They are the worst of the worst, posting illiterate messages and ugly memes. dad4 is here trying to have a decent conversation at least.
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
I think arguing with thirteenknots, crush, and Marsspeed is futile. They are the worst of the worst, posting illiterate messages and ugly memes. dad4 is here trying to have a decent conversation at least.
Click to expand...


" Ugly Memes "

You cannot and will not accept the TRUTH.

So you dig deeper in the dumpster......

Got it.

SDR moving in tandem with a Joe Biden credo....LIES.
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
I think arguing with thirteenknots, crush, and Marsspeed is futile. They are the worst of the worst, posting illiterate messages and ugly memes. dad4 is here trying to have a decent conversation at least.
Click to expand...
I disagree. 13 knots is just doing the reverse troll. It's an act just like espola's. It is what it is. Crush is crush....he's got his own drummer and his heart is in the right place. Marsspeed I say the same. The messages may be "illiterate" and the messages ugly, but it comes from a place of either ignorance or not having thought this through (which is why I've fillibustered on this). If they even get to a little bit of a "hmmmm" I didn't think of it that way moment, I'm happy (and I'm no friend of the leftist trolls either).

What dad 4 is doing is something particularly ugly. He's smart and articulate enough to know better. What's worse is he is or was an educator responsible for the mental and emotional growth of the children or young adults charged with him. What's worse is he's said his friends know trans kids that he has interacted with, and yet he has yet to show any arc of compassion or understanding. And it's come at a long line of other questionable behavior dating to other topics, everything from loving the Chinese/Australian COVID response, to literally "just shut up" and listen to the experts, to mansplaining misogyny to me and patriachalism.
 
MARsSPEED said:
@SurFutbol - All the fair points you sometimes have are always then throw out and discredited by your following assumptions about people that disagree with you. That is a classic sign of an extremist, whether right or left.

Oh, just because you are “allowed” doesn’t mean you are not cheating. That is just a scapegoating answer.

You really said my identifying as a Black person and making massive profits because I am actually white and would benefit from my Old White Male benefits? That is kind of the big subject lately and I think it’s crappy that Black business owners don’t get the same support. I’m sorry you can’t see the parallels of my example being a male can identify as a female and then participate as a female ——-> a white man identifies as a black man and then participates as a black man. One of which is ok, the other is not. If we are all about equality, then both should either be ok or both should not.

Next, not sure how supporters of this initiative keep saying there is no advantage???

Are men born with bigger hearts?
Are men bourn with larger lungs?
Do men have more bone and muscle density?
Are men born with faster hand/eye coordination?
Are men born with faster twitch muscles?

Anyway, from what I can tell, at least @Grace T. can debate like a normal person even though we may disagree however you @SurFutbol and a few others here are just some straight up ugly ugly people. I surely hope you don’t walk around judging people the way you do here. The only thing you know for sure about me is that I do not support M2F playing female sports, no matter the circumstance. That does not give you the right to guess what religon I might be (by the way, funny you strayed away from my Islamic points), it does not give you the right to assume my position on being LGBTQ+ or my politics. You do not know where I grew up, the people who I am friends with, so on, so forth. You do not know me.

This is what I know about you. You hate Christians, Muslims, Trumpers and staunch conservatives. Your posts actually say that to the very word. I also know you judge people based off one opinion that they don’t agree with you on. That is not what I consider to associated with a kind person. Its funny how you are allowed to act this way which is very similar to a racist but the racist is not allowed to speak (and for good reason!!!) but make no mistake, you are riding shotgun with that racist.

Well, it was a fun visit. I’ll check back in a few months.
Click to expand...

Here is the deal buddy. You actually made a number of points early on in this thread that I disagree with but which you were mostly able to hold it together by presenting your opinion in a non-offensive manner (posts 239, 271, 276). That said, you probably mocked gender pronouns in post 242, you called Brittney Griner a man in post 268, and you accused trans children of being selfish in 276, which was pretty fucked up. But I let all of that go because you at least tried to present most of your arguments mostly non-offensively, and you didn't do or say anything wildly transphobic at first. It was only after you personally attacked me in post 649 and 650 because you couldn't handle that I went down the rabbit hole on religion with someone who had clearly and unambiguously made it clear that they're transphobic. Even then, I didn't tee up on you since I know how people get when they're trying to hide that religion is dictating their hatred of trans people. No, I only came after you after it was only after you joined the meme party and started posting tweets of adult, fringe trans people whom you hate to support the bs argument that trans children should not be allowed to participate in youth sports because that would force children to share a locker room with people who you classify as "freaks", especially when you add that to your disgusting comment about Griner and your not remotely funny comment about gender pronouns.

The problem here isn't that I can't have an adult conversation. I have been respectful in those incredibly rare situations in which people have been able to make their arguments free of intentionally offensive commentary, and you actually had a chance. But the transphobic crowd keeps proving that they (including you) ultimately can't help yourselves, so you get what you deserve.

I don't hate Christians or Muslims btw. I hate Christians and Muslims who use their religion as an excuse to rationalize treating trans children without dignity and respect, who use it to rationalize their desire to deprive gay or trans people of their civil rights, and who use religion as shield to excuse their abysmal behavior. I also don't hate conservatives, although I suppose that depends what you consider a conservative today. I obviously don't respect anyone who claims to have "conservative values", like support for a free market economy, who then turn around and accuse trans children who are doing nothing more than being lawful customers of a private business "cheaters". Similarly, I don't respect people who claim to be "conservatives" who claim to support the 1st Amendment - unless someone says something they don't like in which case they accuse them of "cancel culture." They have proven that their not conservatives, they're just bigots.
 
Grace T. said:
I disagree. 13 knots is just doing the reverse troll. It's an act just like espola's. It is what it is. Crush is crush....he's got his own drummer and his heart is in the right place. Marsspeed I say the same. The messages may be "illiterate" and the messages ugly, but it comes from a place of either ignorance or not having thought this through (which is why I've fillibustered on this). If they even get to a little bit of a "hmmmm" I didn't think of it that way moment, I'm happy (and I'm no friend of the leftist trolls either).

What dad 4 is doing is something particularly ugly. He's smart and articulate enough to know better. What's worse is he is or was an educator responsible for the mental and emotional growth of the children or young adults charged with him. What's worse is he's said his friends know trans kids that he has interacted with, and yet he has yet to show any arc of compassion or understanding. And it's come at a long line of other questionable behavior dating to other topics, everything from loving the Chinese/Australian COVID response, to literally "just shut up" and listen to the experts, to mansplaining misogyny to me and patriachalism.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the read on me :) Crush is Crush and my heart is good. Grace T is good. Mars is good soul. 13 Knots has come on strong lately. We don't agree on all things but we do agree about all the liars out there. Dad the Ref is a way to sentimental for my taste but I'm sure is a find dad. The dad with 4 kids and math teacher has been nice to me. I am emotional so I do go off more than others and for that, I sorry Grace T.
 
MARsSPEED said:
@SurFutbol - All the fair points you sometimes have are always then throw out and discredited by your following assumptions about people that disagree with you. That is a classic sign of an extremist, whether right or left.

Oh, just because you are “allowed” doesn’t mean you are not cheating. That is just a scapegoating answer.

You really said my identifying as a Black person and making massive profits because I am actually white and would benefit from my Old White Male benefits? That is kind of the big subject lately and I think it’s crappy that Black business owners don’t get the same support. I’m sorry you can’t see the parallels of my example being a male can identify as a female and then participate as a female ——-> a white man identifies as a black man and then participates as a black man. One of which is ok, the other is not. If we are all about equality, then both should either be ok or both should not.

Next, not sure how supporters of this initiative keep saying there is no advantage???

Are men born with bigger hearts?
Are men bourn with larger lungs?
Do men have more bone and muscle density?
Are men born with faster hand/eye coordination?
Are men born with faster twitch muscles?

Anyway, from what I can tell, at least @Grace T. can debate like a normal person even though we may disagree however you @SurFutbol and a few others here are just some straight up ugly ugly people. I surely hope you don’t walk around judging people the way you do here. The only thing you know for sure about me is that I do not support M2F playing female sports, no matter the circumstance. That does not give you the right to guess what religon I might be (by the way, funny you strayed away from my Islamic points), it does not give you the right to assume my position on being LGBTQ+ or my politics. You do not know where I grew up, the people who I am friends with, so on, so forth. You do not know me.

This is what I know about you. You hate Christians, Muslims, Trumpers and staunch conservatives. Your posts actually say that to the very word. I also know you judge people based off one opinion that they don’t agree with you on. That is not what I consider to associated with a kind person. Its funny how you are allowed to act this way which is very similar to a racist but the racist is not allowed to speak (and for good reason!!!) but make no mistake, you are riding shotgun with that racist.

Well, it was a fun visit. I’ll check back in a few months.
Click to expand...

A few more points that I feel like I've made before, and then I'll let you get back to accusing trans children of being freaks and calling Brittney Griner a man. There is a method to my madness/offensiveness. I honestly think it's important to make sure that all the transphobes here fully understand that they need to keep it down when they're actually in public. You can claim I am fringe all you want, but the truth is my position on trans participation is sports is very mainstream, so much so that many people here agree with me even if they don't agree with my methods, as do CIF, ECNL, the NCAA and a bunch of others. I am also just one of many people who are perfectly happy to get in your face in person if you're going to treat a trans child as disrespectfully as you and many others have in this thread, and you need to know that. You need to know to STFU in public if you aren't absolutely, positively sure that you are entirely in transphobic territory.

Also, if you're someone like crush who is willing to repeatedly treat children horribly and then turn around and claim he is Christian as if that's an excuse for his behavior, the truth is that is a perversion of Christianity and he and you deserve for me to treat your fake religion like shit. If you truly had any respect for Christianity, you'd be telling him to STFU, and you wouldn't be denigrating trans children by insinuating that they're freaks and accusing their parents of abusing them. Instead, you'd be pointing out bible passages that discuss the importance of treating people in need with dignity and respect. So don't whine to me about disrespecting religion if you think "religion" supports being cruel to children who even you admit have had life much harder than your privileged children. If your religion hates gay and trans people, fine, don't be gay or trans. But STFU to extent you think it's a license to treat children cruelly like you and your friends do here.
 
Grace T. said:
The question isn't "no advantage". I haven't seen anyone argue that here. The question is "how much of one" from the base line (which may start differently from a cis male), is there anything we can do about it to make sure the advantage isn't extreme, how much of an impact does that advantage really have on the particular sport (rastling lots, shooting little maybe even negative), what about the other way (what does treatment do from the other direction) and how much of an impact does that have on the particular sports. As before, it's a complicated question with no good answer.

Also the distinction with race is really simple. The science holds that this, like ADHD or autism or even being gay, is a natural condition which deviates from the mean. Race is not (at least not under the present science) since it is part melatonin and part cultural construct. If we want to get really messy there are some genetic conditions that may correlate to particular peoples within a race (such as the masai being really tall, but it doesn't follow that therefor all dark skinned people are tall). As far as I'm aware, identifying as another race isn't a condition which has been shown to be associated with differences in the brain.
Click to expand...
How much of an advantage? XY athletes are about 10% faster and 50% stronger than XX athletes.

The only caveat would be if trans athletes were somehow automatically slower or weaker than their cis peers. That assumption sounds less like science and more like an anti-gay ( or anti-trans) slur.
 
dad4 said:
How much of an advantage? XY athletes are about 10% faster and 50% stronger than XX athletes.

The only caveat would be if trans athletes were somehow automatically slower or weaker than their cis peers. That assumption sounds less like science and more like an anti-gay ( or anti-trans) slur.
Click to expand...
Now you deem to explain gayness to me? Still no thud at the bottom of that well I see. I remember when you got your nose so out of joint when I deemed to suggest something about teaching to you. What's so hard about it to understand? My son as an 8th grader wormed his way into the gym with the high schoolers....a MTF who is worried about people like you finding her "obvious" won't do something like that. Could it be there is no noticeable difference? Sure, I'll concede that....conceding that is science. But you got to measure it, because that's science too.

I've explained to you it doesn't matter if the 10% fast and 50% stronger applies either (on top of the baseline difference). What matters is how much treatment reduces that impact, what impact it has on the particular sport, how far it deviates from the base m, and what impact that has on the particular sport. It must be measured sport by sport, intervention by intervention, which is what the experts you have a hard on for are doing right now using all the test cases and why the NCAA and Olympics are tweaking the rules as data emerges. I've invited you to put up or shut up with the data, and all you came back with is the same generalizations, which are useless, and have already been conceded into the record. You had a moment to shine, and all you came back with was a horrible to add to your parade of horribles. Congrats.
 
SurFutbol said:
A few more points that I feel like I've made before, and then I'll let you get back to accusing trans children of being freaks and calling Brittney Griner a man. There is a method to my madness/offensiveness. I honestly think it's important to make sure that all the transphobes here fully understand that they need to keep it down when they're actually in public. You can claim I am fringe all you want, but the truth is my position on trans participation is sports is very mainstream, so much so that many people here agree with me even if they don't agree with my methods, as do CIF, ECNL, the NCAA and a bunch of others. I am also just one of many people who are perfectly happy to get in your face in person if you're going to treat a trans child as disrespectfully as you and many others have in this thread, and you need to know that. You need to know to STFU in public if you aren't absolutely, positively sure that you are entirely in transphobic territory.

Also, if you're someone like crush who is willing to repeatedly treat children horribly and then turn around and claim he is Christian as if that's an excuse for his behavior, the truth is that is a perversion of Christianity and he and you deserve for me to treat your fake religion like shit. If you truly had any respect for Christianity, you'd be telling him to STFU, and you wouldn't be denigrating trans children by insinuating that they're freaks and accusing their parents of abusing them. Instead, you'd be pointing out bible passages that discuss the importance of treating people in need with dignity and respect. So don't whine to me about disrespecting religion if you think "religion" supports being cruel to children who even you admit have had life much harder than your privileged children. If your religion hates gay and trans people, fine, don't be gay or trans. But STFU to extent you think it's a license to treat children cruelly like you and your friends do here.
Click to expand...


Normally I never venture from the (New)COVID-19 or Off Topic Area's.
Adam " Espola " Schiff is entertaining enough on those two platforms.
But what I am witnessing on this particular thread by certain posters
on the subject of underage indoctrination to a subject that should not
be encouraged by no means until they are ADULTS, is down right criminal.
Think about this, 10 years from now this " Fad " ( Yes I'm calling it a Fad )
will be the subject of MASSIVE LAWSUITS.
WHY you ask ?
Because no one should be deprived of their Adult educated right to THEIR CHOICE.
Absolutely no youth from 5 to at least 21 ( I say ) should make a decision that is
absolutely irreversible. GET THAT...... IRREVERSIBLE !!!
No woman can grow back her Mammary Glands/ Reproductive Organs
after they have been removed.
No man can grow back his Genitals/Adams Apple/Etc after he has been
surgically altered.
I don't care how long the individual ( As a Youth ) is Psychoanalyzed, it's
absolutely not fair to the ( Youth ) individual until they have become an Adult to
make this IRREVERSIBLE decision.

If as an adult the individual make the choice, I support it.....They NEED TO " KNOW "
THE FACTS AS AN ADULT.

As for my remarks regarding CHEATING, Think about why I am adamantly against
MTF in women's sports.

Women who have just recently in Sports ( Last 50-60 years or so ) gained
recognition/ability to garner good scholarships are being CHEATED from
them by a Biological male who has transitioned ( Cosmetically/Surgically)
to a female appearance.
It is not Fair.
It is CHEATING.
 
thirteenknots said:
Normally I never venture from the (New)COVID-19 or Off Topic Area's.
Adam " Espola " Schiff is entertaining enough on those two platforms.
But what I am witnessing on this particular thread by certain posters
on the subject of underage indoctrination to a subject that should not
be encouraged by no means until they are ADULTS, is down right criminal.
Think about this, 10 years from now this " Fad " ( Yes I'm calling it a Fad )
will be the subject of MASSIVE LAWSUITS.
WHY you ask ?
Because no one should be deprived of their Adult educated right to THEIR CHOICE.
Absolutely no youth from 5 to at least 21 ( I say ) should make a decision that is
absolutely irreversible. GET THAT...... IRREVERSIBLE !!!
No woman can grow back her Mammary Glands/ Reproductive Organs
after they have been removed.
No man can grow back his Genitals/Adams Apple/Etc after he has been
surgically altered.
I don't care how long the individual ( As a Youth ) is Psychoanalyzed, it's
absolutely not fair to the ( Youth ) individual until they have become an Adult to
make this IRREVERSIBLE decision.

If as an adult the individual make the choice, I support it.....They NEED TO " KNOW "
THE FACTS AS AN ADULT.

As for my remarks regarding CHEATING, Think about why I am adamantly against
MTF in women's sports.

Women who have just recently in Sports ( Last 50-60 years or so ) gained
recognition/ability to garner good scholarships are being CHEATED from
them by a Biological male who has transitioned ( Cosmetically/Surgically)
to a female appearance.
It is not Fair.
It is CHEATING.
Click to expand...
The dilemma is the same applies to a minor child and an abortion. And before you say "well that just means the minor child shouldn't get an abortion", the problem is the choice to not get an abortion is also a choice and also impacts the life of the minor. Either way you are faced with a decision. It's the same with a medical procedure which is risky but may save the life of the child. The child can't decide so the parent must, but let's be clear, it's a decision either way which is made.

The impact on scholarships will also be more severe if you send them to their own league, because those leagues need to be funded with scholarships. Right now, as has been pointed out by EOTL, trans athletes don't get that any?/that many? scholarships because coaches are reluctant to assume they are going to make the NCAA allowed to compete protocols. It's a wild card.
 
[QUOTE="Grace T., post: 446273, member: 2423"
The dilemma is the same applies to a minor child and an abortion. And before you say "well that just means the minor child shouldn't get an abortion", the problem is the choice to not get an abortion is also a choice and also impacts the life of the minor. Either way you are faced with a decision. It's the same with a medical procedure which is risky but may save the life of the child. The child can't decide so the parent must, but let's be clear, it's a decision either way which is made.

A Child is a Child, you are correct.
Let them become an adult and make their own decision.

The impact on scholarships will also be more severe if you send them to their own league, because those leagues need to be funded with scholarships. Right now, as has been pointed out by EOTL, trans athletes don't get that any?/that many? scholarships because coaches are reluctant to assume they are going to make the NCAA allowed to compete protocols. It's a wild card.

Scholarships.....
Don't CHEAT the women out of them.
Create another " Marketplace " as women have !
[/QUOTE

There's a glimmer in your post.............
 
Grace T. said:
Now you deem to explain gayness to me? Still no thud at the bottom of that well I see. I remember when you got your nose so out of joint when I deemed to suggest something about teaching to you. What's so hard about it to understand? My son as an 8th grader wormed his way into the gym with the high schoolers....a MTF who is worried about people like you finding her "obvious" won't do something like that. Could it be there is no noticeable difference? Sure, I'll concede that....conceding that is science. But you got to measure it, because that's science too.

I've explained to you it doesn't matter if the 10% fast and 50% stronger applies either (on top of the baseline difference). What matters is how much treatment reduces that impact, what impact it has on the particular sport, how far it deviates from the base m, and what impact that has on the particular sport. It must be measured sport by sport, intervention by intervention, which is what the experts you have a hard on for are doing right now using all the test cases and why the NCAA and Olympics are tweaking the rules as data emerges. I've invited you to put up or shut up with the data, and all you came back with is the same generalizations, which are useless, and have already been conceded into the record. You had a moment to shine, and all you came back with was a horrible to add to your parade of horribles. Congrats.
Click to expand...
When you say that the trans population might have a different "baseline", you're invoking the oldest anti-gay slur that ever was: that of a "girly man" who is automatically less than a "real man."

It's nonsense. Trans athletes have the same baseline as anyone else. Jenner was trans, and she did just fine back in the day.

Treatments are another question. They do reduce athletic performance. However, it doesn't matter. We're not going to have a policy that mtf trans kids can play on girls teams, but only if they rush their transition. That's far worse than just inviting them onto a coed team.
 
thirteenknots said:
[QUOTE="Grace T., post: 446273, member: 2423"
The dilemma is the same applies to a minor child and an abortion. And before you say "well that just means the minor child shouldn't get an abortion", the problem is the choice to not get an abortion is also a choice and also impacts the life of the minor. Either way you are faced with a decision. It's the same with a medical procedure which is risky but may save the life of the child. The child can't decide so the parent must, but let's be clear, it's a decision either way which is made.

A Child is a Child, you are correct.
Let them become an adult and make their own decision.

The impact on scholarships will also be more severe if you send them to their own league, because those leagues need to be funded with scholarships. Right now, as has been pointed out by EOTL, trans athletes don't get that any?/that many? scholarships because coaches are reluctant to assume they are going to make the NCAA allowed to compete protocols. It's a wild card.

Scholarships.....
Don't CHEAT the women out of them.
Create another " Marketplace " as women have !
[/QUOTE

There's a glimmer in your post.............
Click to expand...
Women didn't create another market place. If they did the scholarships wouldn't be differentiated the same way. If the market handled it, men's sports would vastly outnumber them. It's an artificial construct created by title ix and the regs and court cases that flowed. The idea behind it was participation (to give women an equal chance to participate and compete) Cash doesn't grow on trees so the money comes from somewhere. Sports like men's soccer will be most affected, with women's soccer closely thereon (because it has the most bodies to ax).

The entire child thing missed your head entirely. Not deciding is still a decision. It's still a choice. It's still one that needs to be made, whether by the state or the parent.
 
dad4 said:
When you say that the trans population might have a different "baseline", you're invoking the oldest anti-gay slur that ever was: that of a "girly man" who is automatically less than a "real man."

It's nonsense. Trans athletes have the same baseline as anyone else. Jenner was trans, and she did just fine back in the day.

Treatments are another question. They do reduce athletic performance. However, it doesn't matter. We're not going to have a policy that mtf trans kids can play on girls teams, but only if they rush their transition. That's far worse than just inviting them onto a coed team.
Click to expand...
That's an antiscience assumption. You don't know that. You have no data or proof. It may be the case, it may not be the case. And there's nothing gay about it as it's a different condition and I resent you implying they are conflated. Add another horrible to your fall down the well. Jackass.

And yes that's exactly the policy blue states are headed for, so go cry about it.
 
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