Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[crush]

The fact is this fellas and Grace. None of us want these two running around the girls locker room as women. It's fear that's causing all this hysteria and also the fact a female could lose her a spot on the team to a Boggs or a Roster. It's possible that imposters like Boggs will use this new MTF thing and go Boggs on our dd. It's within the realm of possibilities. Like I said before, if the snake is chopped off first, then the discussion can be had. We will then look at height, weight and speed. Once that takes places, more talks. This Lia situation took most of us for a loop. Then the young lady cried about having a 6'4 full man all naked next to her as she was undressing and getting ready for the big race. I love gays by the way. One of my BFF is gay. This is not about being gay, no way. Their setting us because.......

 

[Grace T.]

My point is more that, even if you think someone is racist/communist/fascist/whatever, you still owe them the courtesy of listening to their argument and evaluating it on its own merits.

So, the best way to understand a 1950s segregationist or 1950s Maoist is to listen to them make their case in their own words. You may still disagree, but at least you treat each other as sentient beings.

That's not quite what I see from SF and SDR in this thread. I see a whole lot of "you're a transphobe" or "your daughter sucks". Not really much to respond to there.

I agree. That's why I don't find labels like "transphobe" or "racist" particularly useful. It's just "you are an apostate and outside circle of contempt and therefore your arguments are invalid". It's a lazy argument that jumps to a conclusion. The coin flip, though, is it is perfectly acceptable to point out when an argument is racist/transphobic/bigoted/and/or biased and you have crossed the line a few times. An introspective person might wonder why because odds are, if you are locked in bias, you can't see it (or you wouldn't be locked in bias).

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

Are we all in agreement that we don't respond to Crush? I have a feeling that many of you may have him blocked, as there are usually no responses to his nonsensical memes and typo-ridden posts.

 

[SurFutbol]

I agree. That's why I don't find labels like "transphobe" or "racist" particularly useful. It's just "you are an apostate and outside circle of contempt and therefore your arguments are invalid". It's a lazy argument that jumps to a conclusion. The coin flip, though, is it is perfectly acceptable to point out when an argument is racist/transphobic/bigoted/and/or biased and you have crossed the line a few times. An introspective person might wonder why because odds are, if you are locked in bias, you can't see it (or you wouldn't be locked in bias).

Nah. If you can't treat trans people with even a minimal amount of dignity and respect, if you insist on calling them "dudes" and intentionally referring to them by the incorrect pronoun even when you don't need to use a pronoun at all, if you lack any empathy whatsoever for how hard life often is for them and you and don't give a shit about remedying that, you're a transphobe and need to hear repeatedly what will happen if you pull that crap publicly outside your little pool of transphobic friends.

 

[crush]

Are we all in agreement that we don't respond to Crush? I have a feeling that many of you may have him blocked, as there are usually no responses to his nonsensical memes and typo-ridden posts.

Hahahahaha. 99% hate crush you said so why even mention crush? Dad ref is wrong about everything. How many other avatars you got? The fact this is a topic of discussion is a trip and I keep SMFH. The fact I live in your head all day is even more of a trip. You should read my PMs. Mostly positive with, "keep up the good work bro." "Finally someone is willing to take a stand." My favorite, "Are you coming back Crush? We need you."

 

[dad4]

Nah. If you can't treat trans people with even a minimal amount of dignity and respect, if you insist on calling them "dudes" and intentionally referring to them by the incorrect pronoun even when you don't need to use a pronoun at all, if you lack any empathy whatsoever for how hard life often is for them and you and don't give a shit about remedying that, you're a transphobe and need to hear repeatedly what will happen if you pull that crap publicly outside your little pool of transphobic friends.

Why would I show respect for someone like Lia Thomas? Lia had every reason to know that they had an unfair advantage: you don't go from #462 to top five without wondering how it happened. Despite this, Thomas chose to enter the event and take a spot from someone else. Thomas couldn't even show basic courtesy while there. Walking around with your schlong hanging out in the women's locker room? Who does that?

Certain actions do not deserve respect. Thomas' fall into that category.

 

[SurFutbol]

My point is more that, even if you think someone is racist/communist/fascist/whatever, you still owe them the courtesy of listening to their argument and evaluating it on its own merits.

So, the best way to understand a 1950s segregationist or 1950s Maoist is to listen to them make their case in their own words. You may still disagree, but at least you treat each other as sentient beings.

That's not quite what I see from SF and SDR in this thread. I see a whole lot of "you're a transphobe" or "your daughter sucks". Not really much to respond to there.

Uh, when you claim that people aren't giving you the courtesy of "listening to their argument and evaluating it on its own merits", what you really mean is that "people aren't agreeing with my bs". The reality is we did evaluate your arguments, recognized the ones that weren't complete bs, discarded the ones that were, and decided like ECNL, CIF and others that they are outweighed by the legitimate arguments that support trans participation in youth sport. The fact that you can't even recognize the reasons the ECNL and CIF claim support trans participation are even legitimate opinions to have pretty clearly establishes that you lack self-awareness and that you're the only one who isn't willing to listen. To date, you have not even conceded that a single reason that ECNL and CIF have made to is even a legitimate one to have.

BTW, I listened to your argument that we owe Nazi's the courtesy of listening to why jews should be exterminated, evaluated it on its merits, and decided it is bs. I guess I'm not surprised that you're taking the position that people should listen to Nazis, though, given that you share many of the same values including about what to do about trans children. Do you also want to dump them into the incinerator because you're scared one of them might deprive your soccer playing daughter of a trophy, or is that too far for you?

 

[thirteenknots]

I could be wrong, but I think you've already made that bs statement once or twice already. One thing I do know, however, is that your children have no business in sports because they're terrible at them.

I do relish your participation, however, because it is people like you who best prove my point. Even your fellow transphobes scatter like cockroaches when you roll in.

The TRUTH is forever.

Males do not belong in Female sports.
It's CHEATING.

 

[SurFutbol]

Why would I show respect for someone like Lia Thomas? Lia had every reason to know that they had an unfair advantage: you don't go from #462 to top five without wondering how it happened. Despite this, Thomas chose to enter the event and take a spot from someone else. Thomas couldn't even show basic courtesy while there. Walking around with your schlong hanging out in the women's locker room? Who does that?

Certain actions do not deserve respect. Thomas' fall into that category.

I never asked you to show respect for Lia Thomas. In fact, I've been pretty clear that I agree with the NCAA's decision to change the rules with swimming.

Regardless, Lia Thomas is no excuse to rationalize why you hate trans children. It is bs to use her as an excuse why a 13 year old trans girl should not be allowed to play with other girls. Unlike the NCAA, who wins and loses a kiddie soccer game is meaningless. Unlike with the NCAA, the privacy interests of children are more important than those of an NCAA athlete who affirmatively puts her trans schlong out in the public, so to speak. Unlike the NCAA, hardly any youth clubshave locker rooms and, even if they did, that is an obviously easy fix. Unlike Lia Thomas, who is an adult at an Ivy League school, she also doesn't need the same level of compassion and empathy that a 13 year old trans girls deserves. In fact, she knows that she is more intelligent and will be far more successful in life than either you or your athletically-challenged little princess/future homemaker.

 

[dad4]

Uh, when you claim that people aren't giving you the courtesy of "listening to their argument and evaluating it on its own merits", what you really mean is that "people aren't agreeing with my bs". The reality is we did evaluate your arguments, recognized the ones that weren't complete bs, discarded the ones that were, and decided like ECNL, CIF and others that they are outweighed by the legitimate arguments that support trans participation in youth sport. The fact that you can't even recognize the reasons the ECNL and CIF claim support trans participation are even legitimate opinions to have pretty clearly establishes that you lack self-awareness and that you're the only one who isn't willing to listen. To date, you have not even conceded that a single reason that ECNL and CIF have made to is even a legitimate one to have.

BTW, I listened to your argument that we owe Nazi's the courtesy of listening to why jews should be exterminated, evaluated it on its merits, and decided it is bs. I guess I'm not surprised that you're taking the position that people should listen to Nazis, though, given that you share many of the same values including about what to do about trans children. Do you also want to dump them into the incinerator because you're scared one of them might deprive your soccer playing daughter of a trophy, or is that too far for you?

For ECNL?

Simple. A mtf athlete has an unfair advantage over a biological girl. Grace grants this. You seem to still be in denial over it.

Suppose I grant your claim that all past mtf soccer players were so-so when compared to biological girls.

This doesn't say anything about whether they received an unfair advantage. It just means that they were second rate before they got the advantage.

Given that we don't allow mediocre cis XY athletes to play down into the girl's league, we should not allow trans XY athletes to play down either.

 

[Grace T.]

For ECNL?

Simple. A mtf athlete has an unfair advantage over a biological girl. Grace grants this. You seem to still be in denial over it.

Suppose I grant your claim that all past mtf soccer players were so-so when compared to biological girls.

This doesn't say anything about whether they received an unfair advantage. It just means that they were second rate before they got the advantage.

Given that we don't allow mediocre cis XY athletes to play down into the girl's league, we should not allow trans XY athletes to play down either.

Objection. The word "unfair" assumes facts not in evidence. In fact, it is the very nature of the debate we are having is what exactly is fairness and when does something cross into unfairness. I have even gone so far as to argue that there is no such thing as a fairness concept....much of it is in the eye of the beholder and there are only winners and losers.

Further, just because the bell curves shift doesn't mean any one athlete has an advantage over another. The flaw, again, in your model is you are regarding the trans athlete as a sub set of a cis male whereas the proper way to look at it, even from a starting base line, is as its own data set with its own distribution.

 

[crush]

Objection. The word "unfair" assumes facts not in evidence. In fact, it is the very nature of the debate we are having is what exactly is fairness and when does something cross into unfairness. I have even gone so far as to argue that there is no such thing as a fairness concept....much of it is in the eye of the beholder and there are only winners and losers.

Further, just because the bell curves shift doesn't mean any one athlete has an advantage over another. The flaw, again, in your model is you are regarding the trans athlete as a sub set of a cis male whereas the proper way to look at it, even from a starting base line, is as its own data set with its own distribution.

Overruled.

 

[dad4]

Objection. The word "unfair" assumes facts not in evidence. In fact, it is the very nature of the debate we are having is what exactly is fairness and when does something cross into unfairness. I have even gone so far as to argue that there is no such thing as a fairness concept....much of it is in the eye of the beholder and there are only winners and losers.

Further, just because the bell curves shift doesn't mean any one athlete has an advantage over another. The flaw, again, in your model is you are regarding the trans athlete as a sub set of a cis male whereas the proper way to look at it, even from a starting base line, is as its own data set with its own distribution.

In what meaningful way is an unmedicated trans XY athlete any different from an unmedicated cis XY athlete?

On the pitch, I don’t see any difference at all between the two people.

We have all sorts of evidence that being XY confers a very large advantage. Do you have any evidence that being trans confers a significant disadvantage? Or has any effect at all?

 

[SurFutbol]

For ECNL?

Simple. A mtf athlete has an unfair advantage over a biological girl. Grace grants this. You seem to still be in denial over it.

Suppose I grant your claim that all past mtf soccer players were so-so when compared to biological girls.

This doesn't say anything about whether they received an unfair advantage. It just means that they were second rate before they got the advantage.

Given that we don't allow mediocre cis XY athletes to play down into the girl's league, we should not allow trans XY athletes to play down either.

Uh, I freely admit that a trans girl will almost certainly be more athletic than if she were born a biological girl. Maybe that gives her an "advantage" over your athletically-challenged daughter with the fragile ego, but certainly not an "unfair" one. It only means she is one of many kids who are proving that your kid has no business being on the pitch.

 

[SurFutbol]

In what meaningful way is an unmedicated trans XY athlete any different from an unmedicated cis XY athlete?

On the pitch, I don’t see any difference at all between the two people.

We have all sorts of evidence that being XY confers a very large advantage. Do you have any evidence that being trans confers a significant disadvantage? Or has any effect at all?

Team sports participation, depression, and suicidal ideation in lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and questioning adolescents - LaRocca - Psychology in the Schools - Wiley Online Library

"For transgender students, participation in three or more team sports was associated with reduced likelihood of depression and participation in two or three or more team sports was associated with reduced likelihood of suicidal ideation. These findings indicate that team sports participation in LGBTQ youth is similarly associated with mental health benefits as heterosexual and cisgender youth. As LGBTQ youth experience disproportionate rates of depression and suicidality compared to heterosexual and cisgender youth, increased team sports participation may offer important mental health benefits. The data from this analysis thereby support the importance of inclusive team sports environments for LGBTQ youth.
...
Consistent with current evidence (Johnson et al., 2017; Mereish & Poteat, 2015), however, our findings also demonstrate that fewer LGBTQ youth participate in team sports than their heterosexual and cisgender counterparts. Recent evidence indicates that people identifying as LGBTQ+ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, questioning, and those who are sexuality and gender diverse) experience significant discrimination and exclusion in sport at all levels (Denison et al., 2020)."

This is where you admit that you don't care how many trans kids need to die for your athletically-challenged daughter to finally get that kiddie soccer trophy that you have wanted for so long. It is just that important.

 

[SurFutbol]

In what meaningful way is an unmedicated trans XY athlete any different from an unmedicated cis XY athlete?

On the pitch, I don’t see any difference at all between the two people.

We have all sorts of evidence that being XY confers a very large advantage. Do you have any evidence that being trans confers a significant disadvantage? Or has any effect at all?

Here are a few more:

“I Get Treated Poorly in Regular School—Why Add To It?”: Transgender Girls' Experiences Choosing to Play or Not Play Sports | Transgender Health (liebertpub.com)
The moderating effect of physical activity on the relationship between bullying and mental health among sexual and gender minority youth - ScienceDirect
The Medical Implications of Banning Transgender Youth From Sport Participation | Adolescent Medicine | JAMA Pediatrics | JAMA Network

Is this where you agree that youth sports it highly important for the mental and physical health and welfare of our kids - so therefore we should kill as many trans kids as it takes to get your little athletically-challenged daughter a trophy?

 

[SurFutbol]

In what meaningful way is an unmedicated trans XY athlete any different from an unmedicated cis XY athlete?

On the pitch, I don’t see any difference at all between the two people.

We have all sorts of evidence that being XY confers a very large advantage. Do you have any evidence that being trans confers a significant disadvantage? Or has any effect at all?

Just to be fair, I did a google search for "mental health impact of entitled Karen not winning a trophy", but all I came up with was a link to an article about how some slow but entitled girl in Connecticut got destroyed on the track and then in the courtroom.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

Team sports participation, depression, and suicidal ideation in lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and questioning adolescents - LaRocca - Psychology in the Schools - Wiley Online Library

"For transgender students, participation in three or more team sports was associated with reduced likelihood of depression and participation in two or three or more team sports was associated with reduced likelihood of suicidal ideation. These findings indicate that team sports participation in LGBTQ youth is similarly associated with mental health benefits as heterosexual and cisgender youth. As LGBTQ youth experience disproportionate rates of depression and suicidality compared to heterosexual and cisgender youth, increased team sports participation may offer important mental health benefits. The data from this analysis thereby support the importance of inclusive team sports environments for LGBTQ youth.
...
Consistent with current evidence (Johnson et al., 2017; Mereish & Poteat, 2015), however, our findings also demonstrate that fewer LGBTQ youth participate in team sports than their heterosexual and cisgender counterparts. Recent evidence indicates that people identifying as LGBTQ+ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, questioning, and those who are sexuality and gender diverse) experience significant discrimination and exclusion in sport at all levels (Denison et al., 2020)."

This is where you admit that you don't care how many trans kids need to die for your athletically-challenged daughter to finally get that kiddie soccer trophy that you have wanted for so long. It is just that important.

Response coming: I didn't read any of that because someone called someone else a transphobe 5 posts above. I can't be bothered to consider the well being of others while my ego has been bruised by name calling.

 

[SurFutbol]

Response coming: I didn't read any of that because someone called someone else a transphobe 5 posts above. I can't be bothered to consider the well being of others while my ego has been bruised by name calling.

They must feel really good about themselves given that they only want to exclude trans kids from sports despite the fact that their god said it's totally cool to stone them to death.

 

[Grace T.]

In what meaningful way is an unmedicated trans XY athlete any different from an unmedicated cis XY athlete?

On the pitch, I don’t see any difference at all between the two people.

We have all sorts of evidence that being XY confers a very large advantage. Do you have any evidence that being trans confers a significant disadvantage? Or has any effect at all?

Wow I thought you were the big science guy?

Hypothesis: Given that the trans kid is likely afraid someone like you might deem the kid "obvious", that trans kid is likely not in the weight room bulking up with my cis son (who as an 8th grader somehow wormed his way into the high school weight room).

Whether or not it is in fact true is something that can be measured. I'm unaware of anyone ever having done it, but I have refereed two games with MTF trans athletes on. I can most assuredly tell you they were not your typical male. One was actually probably the worst player on the team. Is it possible you get some really high performer like a Caitlyn Jenner?yes. But it's also just as likely, particularly among those that are transitioning very early and came to the realization early, that they are somehow different. The Chicago piece I posted earlier, where they take a holistic approach to placement, seems to support this.

You've committed bad science by making assumptions about your data sets. But considering how the entire COVID thing went, and your math models in that context, I'm not really at all surprised.