Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[thirteenknots]

[Ultimately, the argument against trans participation in youth sports
always boils down to "I hate trans people and will make whatever excuse
it takes to rationalize it.]"**

** The Above bracketed statement by SFb is a flat out disgusting LIE !

 

[dad4]

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to new research. The findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool...

www.sciencedaily.com

Just counting down the freakout that will happen when Peds start scanning children's brains in elementary school and identify children early on who might develop into LGBTQ.

Why freakout? That research has nothing to do with pediatricians screening 3rd graders. The point is more that academic contests and programs should include transgirls among girls and transboys among boys.

But we are talking about athletic contests, not academic ones. For athletic contests, XY and XX are what matters. XY athletes, of all kinds, belong in the XY divisions.

(Don't give me some tripe about the mental aspect of the game. Plenty of excellent athletes are dumb as rocks.)

 

[Grace T.]

Why freakout? That research has nothing to do with pediatricians screening 3rd graders. The point is more that academic contests and programs should include transgirls among girls and transboys among boys.

But we are talking about athletic contests, not academic ones. For athletic contests, XY and XX are what matters. XY athletes, of all kinds, belong in the XY divisions.

(Don't give me some tripe about the mental aspect of the game. Plenty of excellent athletes are dumb as rocks.)

Errr....having a kid who is as dumb as a rock in the mental aspects of the game, I resemble that remark. Further, it's clear that you've never been around a teenage boys soccer team because they are all dumb as rocks. I am literally shocked at how truly great some teams would be if the kids stopped doing stupid shit. Yesterday I was literally watching a high level boy in a scrimmage dribble the ball across the 18 instead of passing it, lose it, and then have it banged right back at the goalkeeper. Further, I think at least among boys this is the height of frustration for parents, and why they in turn do stupid stuff like yell at them "shoot it".

Double err.....you completely missed the point of the studies. It like literally has completely flown over your head. The point of the studies is that, like being gay or adhd, this isn't something people can control. It's not that they want to "pretend to be a girl". It's literally they have something like a girls brain hard wired into their bodies. Now, we can have the argument, which is a scientific one, over whether transition is the best course of action for them and when...the same as we can have the argument over whether you should medicate an ADHD child. But like ADHD, there is plenty of evidence to suggest this is an evolutionary quirk that to the extent it deviates from what we consider the mean (the same as an ADHD child), which means there's an argument that it should be treated as a disability complete with the balance act that was done there (e.g., we don't mandate everyone put disabled accessible bathrooms in their homes, but new business constructions are required to have disabled bathrooms).

Triple errr....you got to get your script straight. If "XY and XX" are what matters, then your logic leads you to a place where FTM are welcome in the girls division for as long as they like, even if they are taking testosterone.

Final err....and I can't believe given how smart you profess to be in math you don't see where this logically leads...if you can tell from early brain scans if boys and girls have a tendency to LGBTQ, certain "correct thinking" individuals might take it upon themselves as part of their expert loving wisdom to scan boys and girls for a tendency to be LGBTQ early on under the grounds that such children may need special nurturing and support as they grow older, and to take parent attempts at dissuading them from being LGBTQ and label them abuse that requires the intervention of the state.

 

[dad4]

Errr....having a kid who is as dumb as a rock in the mental aspects of the game, I resemble that remark. Further, it's clear that you've never been around a teenage boys soccer team because they are all dumb as rocks. I am literally shocked at how truly great some teams would be if the kids stopped doing stupid shit. Yesterday I was literally watching a high level boy in a scrimmage dribble the ball across the 18 instead of passing it, lose it, and then have it banged right back at the goalkeeper. Further, I think at least among boys this is the height of frustration for parents, and why they in turn do stupid stuff like yell at them "shoot it".

Double err.....you completely missed the point of the studies. It like literally has completely flown over your head. The point of the studies is that, like being gay or adhd, this isn't something people can control. It's not that they want to "pretend to be a girl". It's literally they have something like a girls brain hard wired into their bodies. Now, we can have the argument, which is a scientific one, over whether transition is the best course of action for them and when...the same as we can have the argument over whether you should medicate an ADHD child. But like ADHD, there is plenty of evidence to suggest this is an evolutionary quirk that to the extent it deviates from what we consider the mean (the same as an ADHD child), which means there's an argument that it should be treated as a disability complete with the balance act that was done there (e.g., we don't mandate everyone put disabled accessible bathrooms in their homes, but new business constructions are required to have disabled bathrooms).

Triple errr....you got to get your script straight. If "XY and XX" are what matters, then your logic leads you to a place where FTM are welcome in the girls division for as long as they like, even if they are taking testosterone.

Final err....and I can't believe given how smart you profess to be in math you don't see where this logically leads...if you can tell from early brain scans if boys and girls have a tendency to LGBTQ, certain "correct thinking" individuals might take it upon themselves as part of their expert loving wisdom to scan boys and girls for a tendency to be LGBTQ early on under the grounds that such children may need special nurturing and support as they grow older, and to take parent attempts at dissuading them from being LGBTQ and label them abuse that requires the intervention of the state.

I adopted the terms XX and XY because I got really sick of fools deliberately misinterpreting my words every time I said boy or girl. So I decided to rub it in and directly refer to the truth of the situation.

If you don't like the distinction, then talk to the fools who keep deliberately misinterpreting other people's words.

This begins with you. You know what I mean by XX division (XX humans not on T) and XY division (All XY humans, plus XX humans on T). Discuss it, or don't. But don't waste time with childish word games.

 

[Grace T.]

I adopted the terms XX and XY because I got really sick of fools deliberately misinterpreting my words every time I said boy or girl. So I decided to rub it in and directly refer to the truth of the situation.

If you don't like the distinction, then talk to the fools who keep deliberately misinterpreting other people's words.

This begins with you. You know what I mean by XX division (XX humans not on T) and XY division (All XY humans, plus XX humans on T). Discuss it, or don't. But don't waste time with childish word games.

You just don't like it pointed out at you because it points out that you have deliberately gone with a test that comes to your desired end result: shaft the trans regardless of the direction they are going.

Further, you know my background. I resent the "childish" part. Words matter. My profession is built on it. Which is why you've come under attack for the insensitive remarks you've made here, or the authoritarian ones you made in the COVID forum (yes, that's a bat I'm going to constantly beat you with from now until eternity, at least as long as we are both on this forum).

Finally, you could get to your desired conclusion by making it a testosterone and testosterone impact on athletic performance. That's where the real science comes in: can you ever extend an accommodation to the point where it is balanced so that MTF can compete in the F division and FTM can compete in the M division, at least in the divisions where we have decided it matters by testing. The answer may differ from sport to sport. It's possible the answer is going to be "no" for some sport, which leads you to the logical conclusion of a separate division funded by scholarships taken from the F and M, not "screw the trans people" who can't compete in the men's divisions either.

 

[dad4]

You just don't like it pointed out at you because it points out that you have deliberately gone with a test that comes to your desired end result: shaft the trans regardless of the direction they are going.

Further, you know my background. I resent the "childish" part. Words matter. My profession is built on it. Which is why you've come under attack for the insensitive remarks you've made here, or the authoritarian ones you made in the COVID forum (yes, that's a bat I'm going to constantly beat you with from now until eternity, at least as long as we are both on this forum).

Finally, you could get to your desired conclusion by making it a testosterone and testosterone impact on athletic performance. That's where the real science comes in: can you ever extend an accommodation to the point where it is balanced so that MTF can compete in the F division and FTM can compete in the M division, at least in the divisions where we have decided it matters by testing. The answer may differ from sport to sport. It's possible the answer is going to be "no" for some sport, which leads you to the logical conclusion of a separate division funded by scholarships taken from the F and M, not "screw the trans people" who can't compete in the men's divisions either.

Shaft the trans kids? What, if you don’t get to play against weaker players then you’re getting shafted?

The basic standard is that you don’t get to play down. I don’t call it a T standard because then you’d make up some bullshit story about an imaginary testosterone testing regimen for all youth sports players. Or you’d try to bring up very rare genetic conditions that are beside the point.

So I call it an XX and XY standard, with two exceptions. XX athletes on extra T count as XY for purposes of league placement. XY athletes on extra T don’t get to play anywhere because it’s cheating.

As for the science on T, you’re really talking science fiction. There is no treatment which makes an XY human the athletic equivalent of an XX human. Even if they someday develop that kind of treatment, neither you nor I would want to require it as a condition for participation in a youth sports league. So why insist on changing the topic to something which does not exist, and wouldn’t be required if it did?

 

[thirteenknots]

It's possible the answer is going to be "no" for some sport, which leads you to the logical conclusion of a separate division funded by scholarships taken from the F and M, not "screw the trans people" who can't compete in the men's divisions either.

Answer this honestly.

Why can't FTM compete " Competitively" in men's sports ?
Use Soccer as an example for instance......

 

[Grace T.]

Shaft the trans kids? What, if you don’t get to play against weaker players then you’re getting shafted?

The basic standard is that you don’t get to play down. I don’t call it a T standard because then you’d make up some bullshit story about an imaginary testosterone testing regimen for all youth sports players. Or you’d try to bring up very rare genetic conditions that are beside the point.

So I call it an XX and XY standard, with two exceptions. XX athletes on extra T count as XY for purposes of league placement. XY athletes on extra T don’t get to play anywhere because it’s cheating.

As for the science on T, you’re really talking science fiction. There is no treatment which makes an XY human the athletic equivalent of an XX human. Even if they someday develop that kind of treatment, neither you nor I would want to require it as a condition for participation in a youth sports league. So why insist on changing the topic to something which does not exist, and wouldn’t be required if it did?

No we just don’t care about playing down because otherwise we wouldn’t have age bands (note it’s been pointed out to you in high school soccer we in fact don’t). You don’t want the 13 year old kid playing up either against the 18 year old. Just as you say it’s unfair to have the ftm play against the cis f, why isn’t it unfair to have all trans play against the cis m who it’s been shown here (unrefuted by you) have an advantage due to having been through puberty and currently on testosterone.

for someone who professes to love data you are really bad at handling it. First, it doesn’t have to be identical, just close enough. Second, theshift towards f isn’t the only concern…the other is how far of a shift towards m. Third, if you don’t think any accommodation including the rebalanced ncaa rules are ever enough ok I’m open to that. Present your data. Show me the study. Fourth, make sure that data is tailored to the individual sport. I think there’s a case that can be made on the data so far presented for things like wrasling track and swimming but for a team sport the impact will be more minimal. Fifth, make sure the data is tailored for the individual case: starting point, time on treatment, time treatment started, surgical status, time from surgery.

as far as I know (and I’m not that deep into the science…no where near as much as Covid) they haven’t measured this to satisfaction yet. It’s a process the experts are weighing right now so we don’t have the scientific numbers (since it will have to be done for every sport for every individual case). At least you haven’t presented anything so far beyond some broad generalizations that show the given and admitted starting point that after the teen years men as a whole have an instrinsic advantage over women. None of that has been quantified so now is your put up or shut up moment. Waiting.

 

[Grace T.]

Answer this honestly.

Why can't FTM compete " Competitively" in men's sports ?
Use Soccer as an example for instance......

Because the same data that you rely on show that men have an athletic advantage over women shows that a ftm does not fully catch up to the cis men (bell curve to bell curve) or a mtf does not maintain the same performance relative to a cis man (bell curve to bell curve). I posted the articles before. The fact is the trans are in neither direction equivalent to or competive to (bell curve to bell curve) cis men which means that’s not a good answer to the problem either

 

[Grace T.]

No we just don’t care about playing down because otherwise we wouldn’t have age bands (note it’s been pointed out to you in high school soccer we in fact don’t). You don’t want the 13 year old kid playing up either against the 18 year old. Just as you say it’s unfair to have the ftm play against the cis f, why isn’t it unfair to have all trans play against the cis m who it’s been shown here (unrefuted by you) have an advantage due to having been through puberty and currently on testosterone.

for someone who professes to love data you are really bad at handling it. First, it doesn’t have to be identical, just close enough. Second, theshift towards f isn’t the only concern…the other is how far of a shift towards m. Third, if you don’t think any accommodation including the rebalanced ncaa rules are ever enough ok I’m open to that. Present your data. Show me the study. Fourth, make sure that data is tailored to the individual sport. I think there’s a case that can be made on the data so far presented for things like wrasling track and swimming but for a team sport the impact will be more minimal. Fifth, make sure the data is tailored for the individual case: starting point, time on treatment, time treatment started, surgical status, time from surgery.

as far as I know (and I’m not that deep into the science…no where near as much as Covid) they haven’t measured this to satisfaction yet. It’s a process the experts are weighing right now so we don’t have the scientific numbers (since it will have to be done for every sport for every individual case). At least you haven’t presented anything so far beyond some broad generalizations that show the given and admitted starting point that after the teen years men as a whole have an instrinsic advantage over women. None of that has been quantified so now is your put up or shut up moment. Waiting.

Ps there is a testosterone protocol for some sports on the collegiate and athletic levels. Indeed some super rare genetic and chemical cases have had to go on testosterone blockers as a result which screws up your nice neat xy xx standard. It’s because at that level it matters. Your genetics test is just a bullshit way to get to your desired discriminatory result because the testosterone test, if we care about fairness, is enough.

 

[dad4]

Ps there is a testosterone protocol for some sports on the collegiate and athletic levels. Indeed some super rare genetic and chemical cases have had to go on testosterone blockers as a result which screws up your nice neat xy xx standard. It’s because at that level it matters. Your genetics test is just a bullshit way to get to your desired discriminatory result because the testosterone test, if we care about fairness, is enough.

It's not nearly as messy as you think. Most of the fuss is over a single genetic condition which causes some XY humans to have undeveloped genitalia, but normal male testosterone.

Biologically, these are men with a birth defect. And, since they are XY with high T, either test gives you the same result.

The catch with a T test is that it is a very expensive way to get the same information. Maybe you can think of a natural condition where the two tests differ. The only example I can think of is an XX athlete taking T shots.

 

[Grace T.]

It's not nearly as messy as you think. Most of the fuss is over a single genetic condition which causes some XY humans to have undeveloped genitalia, but normal male testosterone.

Biologically, these are men with a birth defect. And, since they are XY with high T, either test gives you the same result.

The catch with a T test is that it is a very expensive way to get the same information. Maybe you can think of a natural condition where the two tests differ. The only example I can think of is an XX athlete taking T shots.

Doesn’t matter. If there’s an exception you are either faced with testing (genetics or t) or you get into an argument over how small the exception is that it doesn’t matter. That’s not what you are doing though: you are using the two tests combined because that’s the only way it gets you to your desired result, and at least with youth sports, subjecting only the trans people to it.

 

[dad4]

Doesn’t matter. If there’s an exception you are either faced with testing (genetics or t) or you get into an argument over how small the exception is that it doesn’t matter. That’s not what you are doing though: you are using the two tests combined because that’s the only way it gets you to your desired result, and at least with youth sports, subjecting only the trans people to it.

Everyone is subject to it. If you are an XY athlete, you have to go to the XY division. It doesn't matter whether you are gay, straight, trans, or furry. The rule is the same for everyone.

You're trying very hard to turn this into a debate over testing protocols. There is no need. People know their child's birth gender. You can just ask.

And, for the very few people who would lie about it, you can kick them out, same as we kick out people who lie about their child's age. We don't have some hugely complex system for enforcing age limits by measuring telemeres. We just kick out the cheaters if and when we find them.

 

[Grace T.]

Everyone is subject to it. If you are an XY athlete, you have to go to the XY division. It doesn't matter whether you are gay, straight, trans, or furry. The rule is the same for everyone.

You're trying very hard to turn this into a debate over testing protocols. There is no need. People know their child's birth gender. You can just ask.

And, for the very few people who would lie about it, you can kick them out, same as we kick out people who lie about their child's age. We don't have some hugely complex system for enforcing age limits by measuring telemeres. We just kick out the cheaters if and when we find them.

So now you are back to ignore the unicorns (the cheater...they can just hide among the horses), the zonkies (the nonbinary who chose not to disclose a gender), and now the dragons (the genetically and chemically unusual), but death to the pegasi. It's easy to tell them apart anyways....they are the ones flying up there. Nice. And you wonder why you get accused of bias.

What's worse "if and when we find them" sounds an awful like the Utah witchhunt. Nice you are so prepared to subject the innocent cis girl to that.

Gotta say, I keep wondering when the end of the pit of horribles finally hits with you, but so far there doesn't seem to be a bottom. There must be one. I just keep listening for the "thud" and get surprised when I don't hear it.

 

[MARsSPEED]

@SurFutbol - All the fair points you sometimes have are always then throw out and discredited by your following assumptions about people that disagree with you. That is a classic sign of an extremist, whether right or left.

Oh, just because you are “allowed” doesn’t mean you are not cheating. That is just a scapegoating answer.

You really said my identifying as a Black person and making massive profits because I am actually white and would benefit from my Old White Male benefits? That is kind of the big subject lately and I think it’s crappy that Black business owners don’t get the same support. I’m sorry you can’t see the parallels of my example being a male can identify as a female and then participate as a female ——-> a white man identifies as a black man and then participates as a black man. One of which is ok, the other is not. If we are all about equality, then both should either be ok or both should not.

Next, not sure how supporters of this initiative keep saying there is no advantage???

Are men born with bigger hearts?
Are men bourn with larger lungs?
Do men have more bone and muscle density?
Are men born with faster hand/eye coordination?
Are men born with faster twitch muscles?

Anyway, from what I can tell, at least @Grace T. can debate like a normal person even though we may disagree however you @SurFutbol and a few others here are just some straight up ugly ugly people. I surely hope you don’t walk around judging people the way you do here. The only thing you know for sure about me is that I do not support M2F playing female sports, no matter the circumstance. That does not give you the right to guess what religon I might be (by the way, funny you strayed away from my Islamic points), it does not give you the right to assume my position on being LGBTQ+ or my politics. You do not know where I grew up, the people who I am friends with, so on, so forth. You do not know me.

This is what I know about you. You hate Christians, Muslims, Trumpers and staunch conservatives. Your posts actually say that to the very word. I also know you judge people based off one opinion that they don’t agree with you on. That is not what I consider to associated with a kind person. Its funny how you are allowed to act this way which is very similar to a racist but the racist is not allowed to speak (and for good reason!!!) but make no mistake, you are riding shotgun with that racist.

Well, it was a fun visit. I’ll check back in a few months.

 

[Grace T.]

@SurFutbol - All the fair points you sometimes have are always then throw out and discredited by your following assumptions about people that disagree with you. That is a classic sign of an extremist, whether right or left.

Oh, just because you are “allowed” doesn’t mean you are not cheating. That is just a scapegoating answer.

You really said my identifying as a Black person and making massive profits because I am actually white and would benefit from my Old White Male benefits? That is kind of the big subject lately and I think it’s crappy that Black business owners don’t get the same support. I’m sorry you can’t see the parallels of my example being a male can identify as a female and then participate as a female ——-> a white man identifies as a black man and then participates as a black man. One of which is ok, the other is not. If we are all about equality, then both should either be ok or both should not.

Next, not sure how supporters of this initiative keep saying there is no advantage???

Are men born with bigger hearts?
Are men bourn with larger lungs?
Do men have more bone and muscle density?
Are men born with faster hand/eye coordination?
Are men born with faster twitch muscles?

Anyway, from what I can tell, at least @Grace T. can debate like a normal person even though we may disagree however you @SurFutbol and a few others here are just some straight up ugly ugly people. I surely hope you don’t walk around judging people the way you do here. The only thing you know for sure about me is that I do not support M2F playing female sports, no matter the circumstance. That does not give you the right to guess what religon I might be (by the way, funny you strayed away from my Islamic points), it does not give you the right to assume my position on being LGBTQ+ or my politics. You do not know where I grew up, the people who I am friends with, so on, so forth. You do not know me.

This is what I know about you. You hate Christians, Muslims, Trumpers and staunch conservatives. Your posts actually say that to the very word. I also know you judge people based off one opinion that they don’t agree with you on. That is not what I consider to associated with a kind person. Its funny how you are allowed to act this way which is very similar to a racist but the racist is not allowed to speak (and for good reason!!!) but make no mistake, you are riding shotgun with that racist.

Well, it was a fun visit. I’ll check back in a few months.

The question isn't "no advantage". I haven't seen anyone argue that here. The question is "how much of one" from the base line (which may start differently from a cis male), is there anything we can do about it to make sure the advantage isn't extreme, how much of an impact does that advantage really have on the particular sport (rastling lots, shooting little maybe even negative), what about the other way (what does treatment do from the other direction) and how much of an impact does that have on the particular sports. As before, it's a complicated question with no good answer.

Also the distinction with race is really simple. The science holds that this, like ADHD or autism or even being gay, is a natural condition which deviates from the mean. Race is not (at least not under the present science) since it is part melatonin and part cultural construct. If we want to get really messy there are some genetic conditions that may correlate to particular peoples within a race (such as the masai being really tall, but it doesn't follow that therefor all dark skinned people are tall). As far as I'm aware, identifying as another race isn't a condition which has been shown to be associated with differences in the brain.

 

[MARsSPEED]

The question isn't "no advantage". I haven't seen anyone argue that here. The question is "how much of one" from the base line (which may start differently from a cis male), is there anything we can do about it to make sure the advantage isn't extreme, how much of an impact does that advantage really have on the particular sport (rastling lots, shooting little maybe even negative), what about the other way (what does treatment do from the other direction) and how much of an impact does that have on the particular sports. As before, it's a complicated question with no good answer.

Also the distinction with race is really simple. The science holds that this, like ADHD or autism or even being gay, is a natural condition which deviates from the mean. Race is not (at least not under the present science) since it is part melatonin and part cultural construct. If we want to get really messy there are some genetic conditions that may correlate to particular peoples within a race (such as the masai being really tall, but it doesn't follow that therefor all dark skinned people are tall). As far as I'm aware, identifying as another race isn't a condition which has been shown to be associated with differences in the brain.

Thats fair. I honestly could care less about who wants to identify as what and nor do I judge or dislike them for that.

I do care about M2F playing female sports. Obviously it’s a debate with strong arguments from each side. It will continue to be debated.

What I am absolutely against is any mutilation and hormone treatments of the body before age 18. Again, I don’t care what kids want to identify as but destroying your body before you are an adult is not something I will ever agree with.

 

[Grace T.]

Thats fair. I honestly could care less about who wants to identify as what and nor do I judge or dislike them for that.

I do care about M2F playing female sports. Obviously it’s a debate with strong arguments from each side. It will continue to be debated.

What I am absolutely against is any mutilation and hormone treatments of the body before age 18. Again, I don’t care what kids want to identify as but destroying your body before you are an adult is not something I will ever agree with.

Yeah, I really hear you on this. It's a good argument, which is why I think most of us agree that the incentives shouldn't be to push kids to do it before 18 (which is also why I don't think that we should push kids who may be desperate to do this further by banning them in youth sports where we don't care about dope testing). It's such a big decision and they may very well wind up regretting it, as quite a few who have transitioned have publicly declared. On the other hand, there are cases (I've written about one I encountered early on my legal career) which the case is just very very obvious and it's very evident that something is truly off there and you are sentencing them to teen years which torment them and then to being derided as "obvious" by folks like dad4 because they didn't do something about it during puberty. The ma vie en rose cases. Then, there are the Caityln Jenners of the world that come to the realization very late in life. It's horrible and sad. Just like ADHD. No good solution.

I hear you BTW on the entire kids consent and 18 thing. It's ridiculous that there are different age of consents being bandied about for abortion, transition, voting, drinking, serving in the military and getting guns. You are either an adult capable of making decisions or you aren't. I for one think the entire thing should be kicked up to 21.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

I think arguing with thirteenknots, crush, and Marsspeed is futile. They are the worst of the worst, posting illiterate messages and ugly memes. dad4 is here trying to have a decent conversation at least.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

I think arguing with thirteenknots, crush, and Marsspeed is futile. They are the worst of the worst, posting illiterate messages and ugly memes. dad4 is here trying to have a decent conversation at least.

Mars is actually behaving today, my apologies