Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

kickingandscreaming said:
For affirmative action, how do they determine that someone doesn't qualify? Understanding this may give insight into a reasonable path for handling the non-binary case.

The true solution is to allow gender's definition to be co-opted and proclaimed as each individual sees fit and replace gender on birth certificates with a line the Doctor completes:
Doctor, please circle one: "Penised or Non-Penised"
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Or
Phallused or Non-Phallused
 
kickingandscreaming said:
I attempted to use the most common reference that isn't offensive. I believe Phallus is marginally less offensive (2 out of 10) than Penis (3 out of 10) on the OS, but it may require Googling more often. Everything's a trade-off.
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You have to watch what you say these days bro. You could just say, "Dick and Non-Dick." All this is a trip. Our big debating has come down to normalizing grown ass men to just say the magic words, "I am female" and "wham, bam, thank you mam" and you get to now compete against girls in NCAA swimming and use the girls bathrooms and locker rooms. This is bat shit crazy and mind blowing all in one bro.
 
SurFutbol said:
And yet never in history has a trans soccer player ever been 10% faster, 4 inches taller and 50% stronger than a substantial percentage of the youth players playing elite girls soccer in ECNL or GDA. Did you also wet the bed growing up because you were afraid of non-existent bogeypersons then too?

Seriously, I can't imagine how frail you and your daughter must be to be so scared of a non-existent problem. My girl is 5'4" and maybe 120 pounds and easily dominated every trans player she played against in club soccer. In fact, she was more "physiologically" capable than every single female comp soccer player in U.S. history. If you're worried that your kid will get dominated by bigger, stronger and faster opponents, it's a good thing she never had to play against Catarina Macario, Madison Haley, Maya Doms and Naomi Girma when they were at Stanford. A trans girl on an ECNL team is no big deal unless you're a pathetic whiner who is looking for excuses to rationalize why their daughter isn't very good at soccer.
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How old?
SurFutbol said:
And yet never in history has a trans soccer player ever been 10% faster, 4 inches taller and 50% stronger than a substantial percentage of the youth players playing elite girls soccer in ECNL or GDA. Did you also wet the bed growing up because you were afraid of non-existent bogeypersons then too?

Seriously, I can't imagine how frail you and your daughter must be to be so scared of a non-existent problem. My girl is 5'4" and maybe 120 pounds and easily dominated every trans player she played against in club soccer. In fact, she was more "physiologically" capable than every single female comp soccer player in U.S. history. If you're worried that your kid will get dominated by bigger, stronger and faster opponents, it's a good thing she never had to play against Catarina Macario, Madison Haley, Maya Doms and Naomi Girma when they were at Stanford. A trans girl on an ECNL team is no big deal unless you're a pathetic whiner who is looking for excuses to rationalize why their daughter isn't very good at soccer.
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strong with the facts - luv the detail..
 
Grace T. said:
common ground: not a good idea to incentivize kids to go into medical procedures early
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Gender Dysphoria sounds awful and anyone experiencing it, adult or minor, needs a safe place to find solutions that are appropriate to that individual alone.

Based upon this thread, it seems like the broader problem is society trying to ‘fix’ things either medically first or structurally to accommodate medical interventions.

Shouldn’t the focus be providing safe spaces for those that need it and helping individuals feel comfortable in their own skin first and foremost?
 
N00B said:
Gender Dysphoria sounds awful and anyone experiencing it, adult or minor, needs a safe place to find solutions that are appropriate to that individual alone.

Based upon this thread, it seems like the broader problem is society trying to ‘fix’ things either medically first or structurally to accommodate medical interventions.

Shouldn’t the focus be providing safe spaces for those that need it and helping individuals feel comfortable in their own skin first and foremost?
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Winner!
 
N00B said:
Gender Dysphoria sounds awful and anyone experiencing it, adult or minor, needs a safe place to find solutions that are appropriate to that individual alone.

Based upon this thread, it seems like the broader problem is society trying to ‘fix’ things either medically first or structurally to accommodate medical interventions.

Shouldn’t the focus be providing safe spaces for those that need it and helping individuals feel comfortable in their own skin first and foremost?
Click to expand...
Outside of my wheel house. What you seem to be asking is try to help people feel more comfortable the way they were born. The experts are really split on this. On the one hand, some people are very happy that have transitioned and are helped. On the other hand, some people regret it and some have even detransitioned. If we were to follow dad4's usual line, we have to trust the experts and what they think the best course of treatment is (sorry...I just think it's really funny he's antiexpert in all this). Regardless, for someone to take those steps and upend their life like that (in some cases severing ties with parents or upending marriages), you gotta believe it's a serious problem. There is sadly in these cases no really good solution as even transitioning isn't perfect (you are never going to make a male a biological female or vice versa...it's just not possible).

I'd be careful with the argument, though. It sounds an awful lot like the arguments made against gays several decades back. Shouldn't we focus on treating the condition first and foremost and making them normal men, instead of accommodating their urges and life styles?
 
Grace T. said:
I'd be careful with the argument, though. It sounds an awful lot like the arguments made against gays several decades back. Shouldn't we focus on treating the condition first and foremost and making them normal men, instead of accommodating their urges and life styles?
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I understand the concern regarding ‘re-education’ or conformity based solutions, that’s reprehensible and doesn’t provide for either safe spaces or individually appropriate solutions.

Grace T. said:
Outside of my wheel house. What you seem to be asking is try to help people feel more comfortable the way they were born. The experts are really split on this. On the one hand, some people are very happy that have transitioned and are helped. On the other hand, some people regret it and some have even detransitioned.
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I absolutely am suggesting that we, as a society, prioritize helping people feel more comfortable the way they were born.

That statement applies to everyone in my opinion. Race, Gender, Sexuality, Socioeconomic Circumstances, Disability, Etc

In this context, not attempting to help individuals feel more comfortable the way they were born would be a violation of the Hippocratic Oath and lead to more people unnecessarily regretting medical procedures or ‘being harmed’ so-to-speak.
 
No situation is the same , in fact, some are dramatically different, that's why in terms of sports I think its difficult to develop a policy that is "fair" (however, you define fair) to all parties involved. Too many variables involved, including team vs individual sports and time from transition. I think at the youth level its better to err on the side of inclusion (at least team sports). However, there is huge difference at the college and above level when someone competes as one gender and the next year competes as the other gender vs when someone has transitioned pre-puberty. I'm all for a common sense approach...hyperbole from either end is not productive and does more harm than good. My son's best friend is transgender male and I would defend his rights to the maximum extent possible.
 
watfly said:
No situation is the same , in fact, some are dramatically different, that's why in terms of sports I think its difficult to develop a policy that is "fair" (however, you define fair) to all parties involved. Too many variables involved, including team vs individual sports and time from transition. I think at the youth level its better to err on the side of inclusion (at least team sports). However, there is huge difference at the college and above level when someone competes as one gender and the next year competes as the other gender vs when someone has transitioned pre-puberty. I'm all for a common sense approach...hyperbole from either end is not productive and does more harm than good. My son's best friend is transgender male and I would defend his rights to the maximum extent possible.
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1674740577826.png
Shot putter opposes World Athletics' proposal for transgender female athletes: 'Serious disadvantage'


www.foxnews.com

Shot putter opposes World Athletics' proposal for transgender female athletes: 'Serious disadvantage'

Amelia Strickler, a shot putter who competes for Britain, spoke out against World Athletics' latest proposal to govern the eligibility of transgender female athletes.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com
 
watfly said:
No situation is the same , in fact, some are dramatically different, that's why in terms of sports I think its difficult to develop a policy that is "fair" (however, you define fair) to all parties involved. Too many variables involved, including team vs individual sports and time from transition. I think at the youth level its better to err on the side of inclusion (at least team sports). However, there is huge difference at the college and above level when someone competes as one gender and the next year competes as the other gender vs when someone has transitioned pre-puberty. I'm all for a common sense approach...hyperbole from either end is not productive and does more harm than good. My son's best friend is transgender male and I would defend his rights to the maximum extent possible.
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Playing in female sports ?

That's cheating.
 
I've been out of this thread for awhile. Dang, 25 pages and you guys still haven't solved this issue?! There is never going to be a consensus on the trans-sports issue. It is a philosophical perspective issue rooted in the everlasting Utilitarian Ethics versus Altruistic Ethics debate. A debate going back to at least the beginnings of society, and probably far earlier than the beginning of recorded history. What is the right path? That which is better for the greater number of Athletes, or that which is better for the individual Athlete. The amount of examples and arguments for one perspective is only surpassed by the amount of counter arguments available. In the end, the 'wrong' or 'right' policy will be determined by society's majority perspective, which in itself will probably swing back and forth, just like some of the female athletes' jockstraps.
 
N00B said:
Gender Dysphoria sounds awful and anyone experiencing it, adult or minor, needs a safe place to find solutions that are appropriate to that individual alone.

Based upon this thread, it seems like the broader problem is society trying to ‘fix’ things either medically first or structurally to accommodate medical interventions.

Shouldn’t the focus be providing safe spaces for those that need it and helping individuals feel comfortable in their own skin first and foremost?
Click to expand...

Letting trans girls play kiddie soccer with other girls is obviously not a medical solution. And, as you say, girls soccer provides a safe space for those who need it so they can feel comfortable in their own skin first. It is funny that the people who liked your post don't realize that everything you say supports allowing trans girls to play with other girls.
 
watfly said:
No situation is the same , in fact, some are dramatically different, that's why in terms of sports I think its difficult to develop a policy that is "fair" (however, you define fair) to all parties involved. Too many variables involved, including team vs individual sports and time from transition. I think at the youth level its better to err on the side of inclusion (at least team sports). However, there is huge difference at the college and above level when someone competes as one gender and the next year competes as the other gender vs when someone has transitioned pre-puberty. I'm all for a common sense approach...hyperbole from either end is not productive and does more harm than good. My son's best friend is transgender male and I would defend his rights to the maximum extent possible.
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You actually make sense mostly, other than I obviously disagree with your position on hyperbole. Notably, there has always been a common sense approach to trans participation. Participation by trans girls and women has always been subject to greater restrictions in older and more competitive age groups, to the point that it is virtually impossible for a trans girl to participate in most professional and Olympic sports, and there is only one known trans girl who has ever played D1 soccer. Participation rules have also always varied by sport as they should, and rules keep getting tweaked when they don't seem to work, as was the case with swimming and the NCAA. The problem, however, is that the transphobes don't want common sense.
 
Code said:
I've been out of this thread for awhile. Dang, 25 pages and you guys still haven't solved this issue?! There is never going to be a consensus on the trans-sports issue. It is a philosophical perspective issue rooted in the everlasting Utilitarian Ethics versus Altruistic Ethics debate. A debate going back to at least the beginnings of society, and probably far earlier than the beginning of recorded history. What is the right path? That which is better for the greater number of Athletes, or that which is better for the individual Athlete. The amount of examples and arguments for one perspective is only surpassed by the amount of counter arguments available. In the end, the 'wrong' or 'right' policy will be determined by society's majority perspective, which in itself will probably swing back and forth, just like some of the female athletes' jockstraps.
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I'd say there is a consensus, or at least a majority opinion.

Most people here seem to think that XY athletes do not belong in collegiate women's events, but that more flexibility is appropriate before puberty and in rec.

A couple outliers on either side, to be sure.
 
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