Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

N00B said:
Gender Dysphoria sounds awful and anyone experiencing it, adult or minor, needs a safe place to find solutions that are appropriate to that individual alone.

Based upon this thread, it seems like the broader problem is society trying to ‘fix’ things either medically first or structurally to accommodate medical interventions.

Shouldn’t the focus be providing safe spaces for those that need it and helping individuals feel comfortable in their own skin first and foremost?
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Outside of my wheel house. What you seem to be asking is try to help people feel more comfortable the way they were born. The experts are really split on this. On the one hand, some people are very happy that have transitioned and are helped. On the other hand, some people regret it and some have even detransitioned. If we were to follow dad4's usual line, we have to trust the experts and what they think the best course of treatment is (sorry...I just think it's really funny he's antiexpert in all this). Regardless, for someone to take those steps and upend their life like that (in some cases severing ties with parents or upending marriages), you gotta believe it's a serious problem. There is sadly in these cases no really good solution as even transitioning isn't perfect (you are never going to make a male a biological female or vice versa...it's just not possible).

I'd be careful with the argument, though. It sounds an awful lot like the arguments made against gays several decades back. Shouldn't we focus on treating the condition first and foremost and making them normal men, instead of accommodating their urges and life styles?
 
Grace T. said:
I'd be careful with the argument, though. It sounds an awful lot like the arguments made against gays several decades back. Shouldn't we focus on treating the condition first and foremost and making them normal men, instead of accommodating their urges and life styles?
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I understand the concern regarding ‘re-education’ or conformity based solutions, that’s reprehensible and doesn’t provide for either safe spaces or individually appropriate solutions.

Grace T. said:
Outside of my wheel house. What you seem to be asking is try to help people feel more comfortable the way they were born. The experts are really split on this. On the one hand, some people are very happy that have transitioned and are helped. On the other hand, some people regret it and some have even detransitioned.
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I absolutely am suggesting that we, as a society, prioritize helping people feel more comfortable the way they were born.

That statement applies to everyone in my opinion. Race, Gender, Sexuality, Socioeconomic Circumstances, Disability, Etc

In this context, not attempting to help individuals feel more comfortable the way they were born would be a violation of the Hippocratic Oath and lead to more people unnecessarily regretting medical procedures or ‘being harmed’ so-to-speak.
 
No situation is the same , in fact, some are dramatically different, that's why in terms of sports I think its difficult to develop a policy that is "fair" (however, you define fair) to all parties involved. Too many variables involved, including team vs individual sports and time from transition. I think at the youth level its better to err on the side of inclusion (at least team sports). However, there is huge difference at the college and above level when someone competes as one gender and the next year competes as the other gender vs when someone has transitioned pre-puberty. I'm all for a common sense approach...hyperbole from either end is not productive and does more harm than good. My son's best friend is transgender male and I would defend his rights to the maximum extent possible.
 
watfly said:
No situation is the same , in fact, some are dramatically different, that's why in terms of sports I think its difficult to develop a policy that is "fair" (however, you define fair) to all parties involved. Too many variables involved, including team vs individual sports and time from transition. I think at the youth level its better to err on the side of inclusion (at least team sports). However, there is huge difference at the college and above level when someone competes as one gender and the next year competes as the other gender vs when someone has transitioned pre-puberty. I'm all for a common sense approach...hyperbole from either end is not productive and does more harm than good. My son's best friend is transgender male and I would defend his rights to the maximum extent possible.
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1674740577826.png
Shot putter opposes World Athletics' proposal for transgender female athletes: 'Serious disadvantage'


www.foxnews.com

Shot putter opposes World Athletics' proposal for transgender female athletes: 'Serious disadvantage'

Amelia Strickler, a shot putter who competes for Britain, spoke out against World Athletics' latest proposal to govern the eligibility of transgender female athletes.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com
 
watfly said:
No situation is the same , in fact, some are dramatically different, that's why in terms of sports I think its difficult to develop a policy that is "fair" (however, you define fair) to all parties involved. Too many variables involved, including team vs individual sports and time from transition. I think at the youth level its better to err on the side of inclusion (at least team sports). However, there is huge difference at the college and above level when someone competes as one gender and the next year competes as the other gender vs when someone has transitioned pre-puberty. I'm all for a common sense approach...hyperbole from either end is not productive and does more harm than good. My son's best friend is transgender male and I would defend his rights to the maximum extent possible.
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Playing in female sports ?

That's cheating.
 
I've been out of this thread for awhile. Dang, 25 pages and you guys still haven't solved this issue?! There is never going to be a consensus on the trans-sports issue. It is a philosophical perspective issue rooted in the everlasting Utilitarian Ethics versus Altruistic Ethics debate. A debate going back to at least the beginnings of society, and probably far earlier than the beginning of recorded history. What is the right path? That which is better for the greater number of Athletes, or that which is better for the individual Athlete. The amount of examples and arguments for one perspective is only surpassed by the amount of counter arguments available. In the end, the 'wrong' or 'right' policy will be determined by society's majority perspective, which in itself will probably swing back and forth, just like some of the female athletes' jockstraps.
 
N00B said:
Gender Dysphoria sounds awful and anyone experiencing it, adult or minor, needs a safe place to find solutions that are appropriate to that individual alone.

Based upon this thread, it seems like the broader problem is society trying to ‘fix’ things either medically first or structurally to accommodate medical interventions.

Shouldn’t the focus be providing safe spaces for those that need it and helping individuals feel comfortable in their own skin first and foremost?
Click to expand...

Letting trans girls play kiddie soccer with other girls is obviously not a medical solution. And, as you say, girls soccer provides a safe space for those who need it so they can feel comfortable in their own skin first. It is funny that the people who liked your post don't realize that everything you say supports allowing trans girls to play with other girls.
 
watfly said:
No situation is the same , in fact, some are dramatically different, that's why in terms of sports I think its difficult to develop a policy that is "fair" (however, you define fair) to all parties involved. Too many variables involved, including team vs individual sports and time from transition. I think at the youth level its better to err on the side of inclusion (at least team sports). However, there is huge difference at the college and above level when someone competes as one gender and the next year competes as the other gender vs when someone has transitioned pre-puberty. I'm all for a common sense approach...hyperbole from either end is not productive and does more harm than good. My son's best friend is transgender male and I would defend his rights to the maximum extent possible.
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You actually make sense mostly, other than I obviously disagree with your position on hyperbole. Notably, there has always been a common sense approach to trans participation. Participation by trans girls and women has always been subject to greater restrictions in older and more competitive age groups, to the point that it is virtually impossible for a trans girl to participate in most professional and Olympic sports, and there is only one known trans girl who has ever played D1 soccer. Participation rules have also always varied by sport as they should, and rules keep getting tweaked when they don't seem to work, as was the case with swimming and the NCAA. The problem, however, is that the transphobes don't want common sense.
 
Code said:
I've been out of this thread for awhile. Dang, 25 pages and you guys still haven't solved this issue?! There is never going to be a consensus on the trans-sports issue. It is a philosophical perspective issue rooted in the everlasting Utilitarian Ethics versus Altruistic Ethics debate. A debate going back to at least the beginnings of society, and probably far earlier than the beginning of recorded history. What is the right path? That which is better for the greater number of Athletes, or that which is better for the individual Athlete. The amount of examples and arguments for one perspective is only surpassed by the amount of counter arguments available. In the end, the 'wrong' or 'right' policy will be determined by society's majority perspective, which in itself will probably swing back and forth, just like some of the female athletes' jockstraps.
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I'd say there is a consensus, or at least a majority opinion.

Most people here seem to think that XY athletes do not belong in collegiate women's events, but that more flexibility is appropriate before puberty and in rec.

A couple outliers on either side, to be sure.
 
Just finished reading from about the middle of this thread until the end. 500 messages is impressive.

I have three cis het (as far as I know) daughters who play competitive soccer (I also have a son, my oldest, but he’s not a soccer player). I have been talking to my daughters about trans kids for a long time and I remember conversations with my older daughter over the hysteria in the news of a trans girl theoretically being in the middle school locker room back in the day (she did not care). It’s always interesting talking to our kids about these issues to see where they are, especially something that gets more complicated as the athletes get older and the stakes are higher.

Since I know all of you have been middle- and high-schoolers at some point and many/most of us have or are parenting kids that age, I wonder how many boys would live a life as a trans girl just to (i) use the girls’ bathroom/locker room and/or (ii) compete against girls. I am not talking about a boy simply saying, “I identify as a girl so give me a uniform and a spot on the girls’ team” b/c that’s not a trans girl and to think there are boys doing that to get an edge diminishes the struggle of coming out as trans (and also includes a view that does not match any adolescent boy I have ever known but perhaps that’s just me). Is there a team of girls like that - trans girls coming together to form a super team to take advantage of a biological difference? Or is it the trans girl who is only known as trans to people who have known her a long time or are close to her on the team? Isn’t this a one- or two-off situation? I know how my own daughters would see this - and do see this - whether it is competing with or against a trans athlete.
 
This is just another version of Grace's and SurFutbol's main argument: it's not a problem yet so why are we discussing it?

It's mostly a theoretical problem as of today. But it's something all youth sports will have to deal with, and like it or not, there are only so many spots on elite teams. There are only so many scholarships per team. Starting at puberty, and widening every year, is an athleticism gap between boys and girls. If we take the hypothetical that a 17 boy begins to transition to a woman, and is good enough to play on a top girls team - who loses their spot? Who loses playtime? Who loses a potential scholarship?

Maybe SF is right and it just sucks for the girl who loses out, but we tell her to make that sacrifice in the name of inclusivity. I don't know.
 
[Q
GLangevinito said:
Who loses a potential scholarship?
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In the end, everything always come down to money.

(if you separate into a third league, BTW, the girl still loses her scholarship, because the reality is also the transitioning FTM and MTFs can't compete with a cis male full blown actively on testosterone).
 
Unless one believes the numbers of non-binary/trans youth will explode or that adolescent boys will suddenly fake being trans in order to dominate on the field, the issue won’t change much in terms of numbers. It might change in terms of our understanding of what it means to be trans and/or our tolerance/intolerance and/or our views on inclusion.
 
dk_b said:
Unless one believes the numbers of non-binary/trans youth will explode or that adolescent boys will suddenly fake being trans in order to dominate on the field, the issue won’t change much in terms of numbers. It might change in terms of our understanding of what it means to be trans and/or our tolerance/intolerance and/or our views on inclusion.
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I think the numbers are small mostly because it is not socially acceptable. No one wants to be the next Lia Thomas.

Take away the social norms, and I don't see any reason the numbers would stay small.
 
Grace T. said:
In the end, everything always come down to money.

(if you separate into a third league, BTW, the girl still loses her scholarship, because the reality is also the transitioning FTM and MTFs can't compete with a cis male full blown actively on testosterone).
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Yeah, money, and opportunities. The only solution you've offered is "Sucks for you" to girls.
 
GLangevinito said:
Yeah, money, and opportunities. The only solution you've offered is "Sucks for you" to girls.
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That’s a bad faith lie and you know it. At the youth level I’ve said it doesn’t matter because we don’t test for cheaters. Want it to matter? Screen (both the boys and girls). And while you’re at it set up a true women’s elite academy level, not ecnl kiddie ball everyone is always complain about.

at the college level I said there has to be a balancing act. Where that line is drawn has to be scientific. If we can’t scientifically draw that line set up a separate league and some girls and boys will have to give up their scholarships (since they won’t take it from football the boy soccer players will be hit hardest…that is unless women’s football takes off: because if so your scholarships will be cut by 1/4-1/6 anyway before you even get to the transgendered).
 
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