Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

GLangevinito said:
They can't compete? Well, let's apply SurFutbol's logic here - oh well, then they are not good enough and should play at a rec level.

Like it or not, someone is disadvantaged in this scenario. You would prefer it to be the natural born girl. I would prefer it to be the natural born boy who is choosing to transition.
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You left out that you are also punishing the natural born girl who is transitioning since people are moving both ways. Key words: You are focused in on the people "who are transitioning" but I have yet to hear a good reason why....what's the rational? I agree there are winners and losers and it's all quite arbitrary who you assign to win or lose. My main point is for youth sports we don't care because we don't care about the overt cheaters, and I don't want to set up a system like in Utah where cis girls are targeted on suspicion of being transgendered. Until you police the cheaters (and I have yet to hear one of you say, yes absolutely let's police it, I'd be willing to have my DD drug tested), I really don't see anything to the fairness argument. Unless you are prepared to let the FTM remain in the female category for as long as they like, I really don't see anything to the biology argument. Unless you are prepared to catch the genetic abnormal, I don't see anything to the genetics argument. And unless you are prepared to advocate for height and weight limitations, I don't see anything to the safety argument here.

For the higher levels such as college I get the argument that there's no perfect solution here. But that leads you a conclusion you aren't going to like: separate leagues for both the trans and nonbinaries. If so, those scholarships got to come from somewhere.
 
Jose has returned said:
Why can't a 18 year old identify as a 14 year old and play at that age group?
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My son has a friend and former teammate whose back was broken when he was 6/7. Severely impacted his height but the kid was one of the great soccer players skill wise that I've seen. He was overlooked by the academy and tier 2 teams because of his height (he was a foot shorter than my son around age 13...around the 15th percentile of height). Why should that kid at age 12 play with the super tall and practically man like kid and have to compete against that the supertall kid for an academy slot?

The 18 year old identifying as a 14 year old thing you know is a canard. The trans thing is a condition which if you want to set up some standards to ensure it's not just a guy declaring himself as a gal I think that's fine. But don't tell me there's fairness if forcing my son's friend at age 12 to play in the same league as some kid who is prematurely practically an adult. On a shoulder to shoulder challenge you get the same result as crush's kid squeeking and knocked on that video he showed.
 
Grace T. said:
You left out that you are also punishing the natural born girl who is transitioning since people are moving both ways. Key words: You are focused in on the people "who are transitioning" but I have yet to hear a good reason why....what's the rational? I agree there are winners and losers and it's all quite arbitrary who you assign to win or lose. My main point is for youth sports we don't care because we don't care about the overt cheaters, and I don't want to set up a system like in Utah where cis girls are targeted on suspicion of being transgendered. Until you police the cheaters (and I have yet to hear one of you say, yes absolutely let's police it, I'd be willing to have my DD drug tested), I really don't see anything to the fairness argument. Unless you are prepared to let the FTM remain in the female category for as long as they like, I really don't see anything to the biology argument. Unless you are prepared to catch the genetic abnormal, I don't see anything to the genetics argument. And unless you are prepared to advocate for height and weight limitations, I don't see anything to the safety argument here.

For the higher levels such as college I get the argument that there's no perfect solution here. But that leads you a conclusion you aren't going to like: separate leagues for both the trans and nonbinaries. If so, those scholarships got to come from somewhere.
Click to expand...
Based on my kids’ friends, quite a few kids are trans, but very few actually go on puberty suppressants, hormone replacement, or surgery. Their transition is purely social.

In other words, most FTM trans athletes are still ordinary XX athletes, and most MTF trans athletes are still ordinary XY athletes. They can be included alongside their respective XX and XY peers. Or, for FTM, they might choose to play a lower level just to be with the guys.

You can talk about making a special set of rules for the few who are further into transition, but then you’re creating a sports reason to have a medical procedure. That’s not a good idea.
 
Grace T. said:
My son has a friend and former teammate whose back was broken when he was 6/7. Severely impacted his height but the kid was one of the great soccer players skill wise that I've seen. He was overlooked by the academy and tier 2 teams because of his height (he was a foot shorter than my son around age 13...around the 15th percentile of height). Why should that kid at age 12 play with the super tall and practically man like kid and have to compete against that the supertall kid for an academy slot?

The 18 year old identifying as a 14 year old thing you know is a canard. The trans thing is a condition which if you want to set up some standards to ensure it's not just a guy declaring himself as a gal I think that's fine. But don't tell me there's fairness if forcing my son's friend at age 12 to play in the same league as some kid who is prematurely practically an adult. On a shoulder to shoulder challenge you get the same result as crush's kid squeeking and knocked on that video he showed.
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Are you trying to say that if players are shorter than the rest of the team they should play down in age?

Ridiculous nonsense. Are we going to define teams based on height. Like the being the minimum height to ride on a roller coaster?

Also (just for fun) biological boys shouldnt be allowed to play on biological girls teams.
 
dad4 said:
Based on my kids’ friends, quite a few kids are trans, but very few actually go on puberty suppressants, hormone replacement, or surgery. Their transition is purely social.

In other words, most FTM trans athletes are still ordinary XX athletes, and most MTF trans athletes are still ordinary XY athletes. They can be included alongside their respective XX and XY peers. Or, for FTM, they might choose to play a lower level just to be with the guys.

You can talk about making a special set of rules for the few who are further into transition, but then you’re creating a sports reason to have a medical procedure. That’s not a good idea.
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The reverse incentive is true. If you in college cut off mtf who have gone through boy puberty you are creating a sports reason to transition early. Not a good idea either. But hey we found some common ground: not a good idea to incentivize kids to go into medical procedures early


Carlsbad7 said:
Are you trying to say that if players are shorter than the rest of the team they should play down in age?

Ridiculous nonsense. Are we going to define teams based on height. Like the being the minimum height to ride on a roller coaster?

Also (just for fun) biological boys shouldnt be allowed to play on biological girls teams.
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Yes absolutely if we care about fairness. It no secret that two of the main factors in picking kids for higher level team at young ages is how close are they to the age line and how tall are they. If you really care about a level playing field group by weight height and development. If your tall 11 year old goes from being a superstar to an above average player playing with the 13 year olds so be it.
 
Carlsbad7 said:
Are you trying to say that if players are shorter than the rest of the team they should play down in age?

Ridiculous nonsense. Are we going to define teams based on height. Like the being the minimum height to ride on a roller coaster?

Also (just for fun) biological boys shouldnt be allowed to play on biological girls teams.
Click to expand...
Ps the kids who are playing on false papers are effectively playing down a year to get a competitive advantage
 
Grace T. said:
You left out that you are also punishing the natural born girl who is transitioning since people are moving both ways.
Click to expand...

Yes, both the born male who went through puberty as a male who now has female testosterone levels and the born female who went through puberty as a female and now has male testosterone levels have athletic advantages over born females who have female testosterone levels. Both FTM and MTF individuals should both compete against males.

Your fervent desire for inclusivity will eventually kill female sporting opportunities.
 
Carlsbad7 said:
Are you trying to say that if players are shorter than the rest of the team they should play down in age?

Ridiculous nonsense. Are we going to define teams based on height. Like the being the minimum height to ride on a roller coaster?

Also (just for fun) biological boys shouldnt be allowed to play on biological girls teams.
Click to expand...
Well, we need to be fair to EVERYONE Carlsbad. Look man, the "men" see more they can grab if some of them can say they want to be female. Just saying the magic words, "I am female" gives that man every right to now compete on female only leagues and use the females locker room and bathroom and ain't no one can take that right from this group of humans.
 
GLangevinito said:
Yes, both the born male who went through puberty as a male who now has female testosterone levels and the born female who went through puberty as a female and now has male testosterone levels have athletic advantages over born females who have female testosterone levels. Both FTM and MTF individuals should both compete against males.

Your fervent desire for inclusivity will eventually kill female sporting opportunities.
Click to expand...
I don't have a fervent desire for inclusivity. You just simply refuse to listen. I think accommodations should be extended but there's a balancing act. On the youth level, this means barring the creation of a girl's academy system geared at creating the USWNT and pro athletes, include them (since you aren't doing anything to exclude the cheaters....I have YET to hear 21 threads later a single one of you on this topic say yes we should go after the cheaters....the closest anyone has come is dad4 who said he was antidoping but hasn't said he's really prepared to do anything about it). There's no justifiable reason to exclude them (not one of you has yet to articulate one that is consistent with your positions on the rest of fairness).

On the college level, I actually agree with you that the testosterone test is the best one to be applied. But that doesn't necessarily mean excluded athletes for either direction. The science is evolving on this particular issue and I'm open to the argument that yes the standards need to be more rigorous than they are now to avoid leahs. But if you can't set some standard short of exclusion, then the answer is separate leagues, and to provide scholarship opportunities taken from the other categories. I have yet to hear anyone say "yeah let's do that" either.
 
Grace T. said:
I don't have a fervent desire for inclusivity. You just simply refuse to listen. I think accommodations should be extended but there's a balancing act. On the youth level, this means barring the creation of a girl's academy system geared at creating the USWNT and pro athletes, include them (since you aren't doing anything to exclude the cheaters....I have YET to hear 21 threads later a single one of you on this topic say yes we should go after the cheaters....the closest anyone has come is dad4 who said he was antidoping but hasn't said he's really prepared to do anything about it). There's no justifiable reason to exclude them (not one of you has yet to articulate one that is consistent with your positions on the rest of fairness).

On the college level, I actually agree with you that the testosterone test is the best one to be applied. But that doesn't necessarily mean excluded athletes for either direction. The science is evolving on this particular issue and I'm open to the argument that yes the standards need to be more rigorous than they are now to avoid leahs. But if you can't set some standard short of exclusion, then the answer is separate leagues, and to provide scholarship opportunities taken from the other categories. I have yet to hear anyone say "yeah let's do that" either.
Click to expand...
More states need to make sports gambling legal. Once this happens biological boys wont be able to play on biological womens teams anymore.

As others have said theres going to be a day when a top mens team decides to call themselves women + run the league + bet on themselves for every game.
 
Carlsbad7 said:
More states need to make sports gambling legal. Once this happens biological boys wont be able to play on biological womens teams anymore.

As others have said theres going to be a day when a top mens team decides to call themselves women + run the league + bet on themselves for every game.
Click to expand...
The rules committee will come up with some rule that says only 3 Transgenders allowed per roster and only 2 can be on the game day roster of 18. Fairness is important bro. You can start one of them and save the other for a special time during the match.
 
Carlsbad7 said:
More states need to make sports gambling legal. Once this happens biological boys wont be able to play on biological womens teams anymore.

As others have said theres going to be a day when a top mens team decides to call themselves women + run the league + bet on themselves for every game.
Click to expand...

Paranoid. Also moronic.

Even assuming for the sake of argument that a team of men said they were transgender so they could beat a women's team, any legal sports gambling odds would reflect this, moron. Worse, it is a million times more likely that they would bet against themselves and play to lose you idiot or at least not cover the spread since that it easily controllable and far easier to make money than having to actually beat the spread, you idiot. But your paranoid theory also ignores that, once again, the problem is not trans people, it is transphobic shitbags like you who are doing the cheating and abusing. Yet again, you want to punish trans people for the abysmal behavior of transphobes.
 
Grace T. said:
I don't have a fervent desire for inclusivity. You just simply refuse to listen. I think accommodations should be extended but there's a balancing act. On the youth level, this means barring the creation of a girl's academy system geared at creating the USWNT and pro athletes, include them (since you aren't doing anything to exclude the cheaters....I have YET to hear 21 threads later a single one of you on this topic say yes we should go after the cheaters....the closest anyone has come is dad4 who said he was antidoping but hasn't said he's really prepared to do anything about it). There's no justifiable reason to exclude them (not one of you has yet to articulate one that is consistent with your positions on the rest of fairness).

On the college level, I actually agree with you that the testosterone test is the best one to be applied. But that doesn't necessarily mean excluded athletes for either direction. The science is evolving on this particular issue and I'm open to the argument that yes the standards need to be more rigorous than they are now to avoid leahs. But if you can't set some standard short of exclusion, then the answer is separate leagues, and to provide scholarship opportunities taken from the other categories. I have yet to hear anyone say "yeah let's do that" either.
Click to expand...
No one is following you on the “let’s find the cheaters” bandwagon, because you haven’t shown that there are cheaters to find. You might as well be saying “let’s go unicorn hunting”.
 
dad4 said:
No one is following you on the “let’s find the cheaters” bandwagon, because you haven’t shown that there are cheaters to find. You might as well be saying “let’s go unicorn hunting”.
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I know a couple (it was really the guy) that went looking for a Unicorn to join their family. My pal loved the hunting part but in the process he lost his wife to another. A Wolf in Unicorn clothing can ruin a marriage.

1674311555960.png
 
dad4 said:
No one is following you on the “let’s find the cheaters” bandwagon, because you haven’t shown that there are cheaters to find. You might as well be saying “let’s go unicorn hunting”.
Click to expand...
I have to say this is one of the funniest things you’ve written. I literally burst out laughing and caught myself from waking the house. Normally only Espola did that to me

one of the very first arguments raised in this thread was that the trans issue is rare. The response that was something along the lines of “we don’t care” because “it’s about fairness”. Now you seriously gonna argue cheating is as rare as unicorn hunting? If cheating is a unicorn I’m sorry the trans kids then are a Pegasus.

first we don’t know the scope of the problem because youth sports don’t generally do random dope testing. Second I mentioned that I was at a holiday party where the subject came up among football parents…it was openly discussed at the impression I came away with is it’s not just “ rare” but to use the d&d term more “uncommon”…I was even pointed to a doctor that does it if I wanted to join in. Third if you’ve been in this site long enough you know that the age cheaters while not necessarily ubiquitous are out there and that this site for a while carried ads for false papers. In my sons soccer career I’ve run across at least two confirmed age cheaters and countless suspected. Fourth if you see the number of double held athletes out there both boys and girls you’ve got to know parents be crazy and what they are doing right now to get a leg up is crazy (hence everyone here having their panties in a bunch over scholarships). You think soccer is crazy you ain’t seen nothing til you look at the qb world.

now I do think the issue is much more prevalent among the boys (where again on high performing recruited athletes in all sports I’d argue it’s pretty much more than “rare” but without an audit we just won’t know), but before you go Pegasus hunting, yeah you better darn we’ll round up the unicorns or at least confirm they don’t exist. Besides unicorns are a menace eating all the Zonkeys grass and rainbow pooping everywhere. The Pegasi just want to fly up there and be free.

one caveat to this argument: if the non-binary are running at 6% and if the non-binary start to demand accommodations then my argument doesn’t hold up. Then we have a zebra problem and I think then not only do we have a critical mass to form a third league but also it would necessitate that. I don’t think that’s going to happen though…at least not at the youth level…for reasons of the observations you previously made…I could be wrong through.
 
Grace T. said:
I have to say this is one of the funniest things you’ve written. I literally burst out laughing and caught myself from waking the house. Normally only Espola did that to me

one of the very first arguments raised in this thread was that the trans issue is rare. The response that was something along the lines of “we don’t care” because “it’s about fairness”. Now you seriously gonna argue cheating is as rare as unicorn hunting? If cheating is a unicorn I’m sorry the trans kids then are a Pegasus.

first we don’t know the scope of the problem because youth sports don’t generally do random dope testing. Second I mentioned that I was at a holiday party where the subject came up among football parents…it was openly discussed at the impression I came away with is it’s not just “ rare” but to use the d&d term more “uncommon”…I was even pointed to a doctor that does it if I wanted to join in. Third if you’ve been in this site long enough you know that the age cheaters while not necessarily ubiquitous are out there and that this site for a while carried ads for false papers. In my sons soccer career I’ve run across at least two confirmed age cheaters and countless suspected. Fourth if you see the number of double held athletes out there both boys and girls you’ve got to know parents be crazy and what they are doing right now to get a leg up is crazy (hence everyone here having their panties in a bunch over scholarships). You think soccer is crazy you ain’t seen nothing til you look at the qb world.

now I do think the issue is much more prevalent among the boys (where again on high performing recruited athletes in all sports I’d argue it’s pretty much more than “rare” but without an audit we just won’t know), but before you go Pegasus hunting, yeah you better darn we’ll round up the unicorns or at least confirm they don’t exist. Besides unicorns are a menace eating all the Zonkeys grass and rainbow pooping everywhere. The Pegasi just want to fly up there and be free.

one caveat to this argument: if the non-binary are running at 6% and if the non-binary start to demand accommodations then my argument doesn’t hold up. Then we have a zebra problem and I think then not only do we have a critical mass to form a third league but also it would necessitate that. I don’t think that’s going to happen though…at least not at the youth level…for reasons of the observations you previously made…I could be wrong through.
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Ps I’ve made the case why we need to hunt the unicorns down before the Pegasi. The bottom line is the unicorns are a menace. If you disagree maybe you think the Pegasi are a menace? If so there’s no other other reason except your bias is showing

but to answer the question as to then why no one has jumped onto the cheaters bandwagon…”come on, man”…you know the answer to that: it will inconvenience you, while you (you’ve literally said it too) think rounding up the trans kid will be easy. My argument to that is no it won’t because of California and the way blue states are moving to handling birthcertificates. What will happen is more incidents like the Utah girl being accused of being trans, and then subjected to a school records search (not possible for club soccer esp California), physical exam, genetic test or doping test depending on the test adopted. I don’t just care about the trans kid: I care about the cis girl falsely accused and witch hunted.

bottom line politically: nothing will change so long as California and other blue states move in this direction. They can’t. Unless you want to test everyone the birth certificate is a shield. Wanna change it? Turn California red or move.
 
ok kids are off to sports and morning chores are done so I have time to go on the lap top to cut and paste this. Here's why it made me laugh. Among adolescents in this study back in 2000 3-12% on males (depending age tested) and 1-2% females. There's another here on preadolescents, also somewhat old. Things have gotten crazier as you know in youth sports since then (back then is the era when we were still semi-nice to referees: "hey ref you are an idiot but thanks for being out there").. Even at 1-2% among females we aren't in unicorn territory anymore...we're talking zonkies now. I laughed because it is self-evidently and quite obviously a problem, that I find it really hard how you can think it's a "unicorn".

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Doping among adolescent athletes - PubMed

The use of drugs to enhance physical performance and appearance has been observed for thousands of years. Today individuals, including adolescents, continue to employ a wide variety of drugs in the hope of improving their athletic performance and looking better. Unfortunately, beyond the...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Doping prevalence among preadolescent athletes: a 4‐year follow‐up - PMC

To describe the prevalence of doping and its progression in a cohort of preadolescent athletes during a 4‐year follow‐up. Prospective cohort study. Self‐questionnaire survey. All of the pupils entering the first year of secondary school (sixth ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
 
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