Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[GLangevinito]

Then it’s not worth going after the trans people (you have yet to articulate a principle distinguishing the two considering how one is morally worse than the other…or maybe that’s the point…you consider trans morally worse????). Don’t care about the unicorns then you can ignore the pegasi. At least you aren’t stepping in their rainbow poop.

Because we do not control for every form of "cheating" if we expand the definition of "cheating" to ridiculous extremes, does not mean that we should just abandon all enforcement. If everyone is cheating, then no one is cheating, right?

In the name of fairness, we control for what we can. Age separation. Sex separation. Skill separation. In some sports, weight separation.

In only one category today can you change where you are placed with just a word, overnight.

 

[Grace T.]

Because we do not control for every form of "cheating" if we expand the definition of "cheating" to ridiculous extremes, does not mean that we should just abandon all enforcement. If everyone is cheating, then no one is cheating, right?

In the name of fairness, we control for what we can. Age separation. Sex separation. Skill separation. In some sports, weight separation.

In only one category today can you change where you are placed with just a word, overnight.

It's a canard to say that people are just changing with one word overnight. Can you imagine the ridicule a boy would receive from his peers if he just decided to go on living like the boy but wanted to play with the girls in order to win, and put any kind of scholarship on the line? You really think that's happening?. If you are concerned, I wouldn't mind a velvet rope: birth certificate change or require the athlete to live in the opposite gender. And to be clear, we are talking the youth level here.

As to the "we control what we can" youth sports does not police for steroids. The MLS Next handbook has 2 pages to putting the MLS in ill repute and 1 sentence about drugs, tobacco and PED. Again, it's pegasi and unicorns (and in the boys case, mules since the number seems close to 1 in 10 among high performing athletes). It's basic logic: if you are concerned about fairness, go after the blatant cheaters first who have no objective other than to simply cheat (the trans kids have other fish to fry in their lives beyond just wanting to get ahead in sports). You talk about fairness but then aren't willing to act fairly because it inconveniences you. The absolute height of hypocrisy.

 

[toucan]

Those who don't want trans players to play against girls cite a parade of horribles: a girl might might see a boy's genitals in the locker room; there is an unfair "testosterone-based" advantage; a boy might fake his gender identity so he could be a superstar on a girls' team; a girl might get scraped by beard stubble .... etc ....

These are all hypothetical outrages. How many actually happened? Well, the best way to find out would be to look at a State which has allowed trans athletes to play with and against players of their gender identity. Then count up all the actual outrages.

California has allowed such competition since 2015. The right extends to all age groups in elementary and secondary schools. The right extends to using bathrooms, locker rooms, and any other facilites. It is part of the California Education Code. In pertinent part, CEC Sec. 225.1(f) states: (f) A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs and activities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records.

Maybe some of the anti-trans posters list all of the horrible things that actually occurred in California as a result of allowing trans-athletes to complete.

 

[Grace T.]

Those who don't want trans players to play against girls cite a parade of horribles: a girl might might see a boy's genitals in the locker room; there is an unfair "testosterone-based" advantage; a boy might fake his gender identity so he could be a superstar on a girls' team; a girl might get scraped by beard stubble .... etc ....

These are all hypothetical outrages. How many actually happened? Well, the best way to find out would be to look at a State which has allowed trans athletes to play with and against players of their gender identity. Then count up all the actual outrages.

California has allowed such competition since 2015. The right extends to all age groups in elementary and secondary schools. The right extends to using bathrooms, locker rooms, and any other facilites. It is part of the California Education Code. In pertinent part, CEC Sec. 225.1(f) states: (f) A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs and activities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records.

Maybe some of the anti-trans posters list all of the horrible things that actually occurred in California as a result of allowing trans-athletes to complete.

Not California but on the youth track there is this in connecticut (IIUC they lost their title ix claim at least in the lower court)

‘No Chance of Winning’: Four female athletes challenge high school transgender policy

(The Center Square) – Four female athletes are locked in a legal battle over transgender athletes that could set major precedent for the same fight playing out in schools around

www.thecentersquare.com

I don't think it's helpful to say it doesn't happen. Even if it hasn't yet, it will. There have been a handful of other incidents. Mostly, they've been in the individual sports . I can see the case for testing in certain individual sports on the high school level, mostly notably track or race swimming. But those are also two of the sports where steroid usage can make the most difference, and at least anecdotally, might have a doping problem so they probably do need to extend doping tests to state competitions if none in place already.

Illinois seems to have a holistic review policy that's a middle ground that's been attack both by the trans activists and the anti-trans block. Has to be approved by the state association, and they note that for most of them it doesn't really make a difference (because they aren't at a level where it makes a difference).

50 Years After Title IX, Transgender Athletes Advocate for Protections in High School and College Sports

“Title Nine at 50: Past, Present, Future” is a three-day event at Northwestern University’s Evanston campus running Thursday, Friday and Saturday. It's free and open to the public and this story will be screened on Friday as part of the symposium.

news.wttw.com

Also here's a piece on a FTM. As a female athlete top of her form. As a male athlete, his performance degenerated, and this is someone who was absolutely the best of the best as a female.

Opinion | I Chose to Compete as My True, Trans Self. I Win Less, but I Live More.

Living in authenticity makes me a better man.

www.nytimes.com

The New York Marathon now has a non-binary category. Points to a possible third category, especially for individual sports, but if so, be prepared to sacrifice some of your scholarships for that new category. I have yet to hear any of the antitrans people says: "yay, I just wanted an equal playfield...sure we'll give up some scholarships to make that happen".

'I have to go prove that we belong': NYC Marathon sees surge in nonbinary runners

Sixteen nonbinary runners finished the NYC Marathon last year. That number nearly tripled for 2022's race.

19thnews.org

 

[SurFutbol]

Because we do not control for every form of "cheating" if we expand the definition of "cheating" to ridiculous extremes, does not mean that we should just abandon all enforcement. If everyone is cheating, then no one is cheating, right?

In the name of fairness, we control for what we can. Age separation. Sex separation. Skill separation. In some sports, weight separation.

In only one category today can you change where you are placed with just a word, overnight.

You are the one changing the definition of cheating, and also seem to be under the misunderstanding that "cheating" means "not doing what I want". Trans girls who participate in sports with and against other girls are doing so in accordance with both the law and the league rules no matter how much it bothers you.

 

[GLangevinito]

It's a canard to say that people are just changing with one word overnight. Can you imagine the ridicule a boy would receive from his peers if he just decided to go on living like the boy but wanted to play with the girls in order to win, and put any kind of scholarship on the line? You really think that's happening?. If you are concerned, I wouldn't mind a velvet rope: birth certificate change or require the athlete to live in the opposite gender. And to be clear, we are talking the youth level here.

As to the "we control what we can" youth sports does not police for steroids. The MLS Next handbook has 2 pages to putting the MLS in ill repute and 1 sentence about drugs, tobacco and PED. Again, it's pegasi and unicorns (and in the boys case, mules since the number seems close to 1 in 10 among high performing athletes). It's basic logic: if you are concerned about fairness, go after the blatant cheaters first who have no objective other than to simply cheat (the trans kids have other fish to fry in their lives beyond just wanting to get ahead in sports). You talk about fairness but then aren't willing to act fairly because it inconveniences you. The absolute height of hypocrisy.

Your arguments, as I've said:

- It's too rare to be bothered about
- Other people cheat too why target MTF kids

I've addressed this all ad nauseam.

 

[GLangevinito]

Those who don't want trans players to play against girls cite a parade of horribles: a girl might might see a boy's genitals in the locker room; there is an unfair "testosterone-based" advantage; a boy might fake his gender identity so he could be a superstar on a girls' team; a girl might get scraped by beard stubble .... etc ....

These are all hypothetical outrages. How many actually happened? Well, the best way to find out would be to look at a State which has allowed trans athletes to play with and against players of their gender identity. Then count up all the actual outrages.

California has allowed such competition since 2015. The right extends to all age groups in elementary and secondary schools. The right extends to using bathrooms, locker rooms, and any other facilites. It is part of the California Education Code. In pertinent part, CEC Sec. 225.1(f) states: (f) A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs and activities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records.

Maybe some of the anti-trans posters list all of the horrible things that actually occurred in California as a result of allowing trans-athletes to complete.

1) Another "it's too rare to be bothered by" argument
2) No one has ever argued about locker rooms or beard stubble
3) No one cares about rec and school level sports
4) Who is "anti-trans"? I'm pro-fairness. I support all trans kids the right to live their lives how they see fit, right up until it negatively impacts others.

 

[dad4]

The New York Marathon now has a non-binary category. Points to a possible third category, especially for individual sports, but if so, be prepared to sacrifice some of your scholarships for that new category. I have yet to hear any of the antitrans people says: "yay, I just wanted an equal playfield...sure we'll give up some scholarships to make that happen".

I don't really care if all sports scholarships go away. It’s a silly reason to go to college anyway.

Creating a tier of trans scholarships is a bad idea in its own way. Not because I object to trans sports teams, but I don’t like incentives around medical decisions. People get crazy when chasing a scholarship. Do you really want some misguided parent pressuring their kid to rush transition because they ran the numbers and think the odds are best as a trans basketball player?

 

[Grace T.]

I don't really care if all sports scholarships go away. It’s a silly reason to go to college anyway.

Creating a tier of trans scholarships is a bad idea in its own way. Not because I object to trans sports teams, but I don’t like incentives around medical decisions. People get crazy when chasing a scholarship. Do you really want some misguided parent pressuring their kid to rush transition because they ran the numbers and think the odds are best as a trans basketball player?

The third division would be college only not youth sports (for which we’ve established we don’t care and in any case you could only obtain a critical mass at a large college…not at a high school). Like I said before no good options but if folks like you are going to object to any accommodation on the college level as being inherently unfair due to puberty, in incentives from a third league are outweighed by even having a participation option since neither the ftms nor mtfs can compete with a male on full testosterone. It also wouldn’t be a trans division. Like the ny marathon it would encompass those non-binary wishing to play under something other than their birth gender

 

[Grace T.]

Your arguments, as I've said:

- It's too rare to be bothered about
- Other people cheat too why target MTF kids

I've addressed this all ad nauseam.

No you haven’t. You’ve never addressed why an overt cheater should get off Scott free while the trans (who are transitioning for reasons other than sports) should be penalized. Nobody here has been able to articulate a rational other than convenience (don’t want to be burdened yourself) or ease of detection (which is just incorrect, impossible without testing if you have birth certificates acting as a shield, and has the externality that cis girls will be accused). What I suspect is folks like you and dad4 have a morality argument you want to make but are afraid to make it.

 

[Grace T.]

1) Another "it's too rare to be bothered by" argument
2) No one has ever argued about locker rooms or beard stubble
3) No one cares about rec and school level sports
4) Who is "anti-trans"? I'm pro-fairness. I support all trans kids the right to live their lives how they see fit, right up until it negatively impacts others.

School level sports? You’ve got it completely backwards man. The main issue is in some individual school based sports like track and swimming where testosterone including peds make a huge difference. That’s where the headlines have been. Club sports outside the context of the mls academies and national team camps? They are just glorified kiddie soccer for which we don’t even drug screen.

 

[SurFutbol]

Your arguments, as I've said:

- It's too rare to be bothered about
- Other people cheat too why target MTF kids

I've addressed this all ad nauseam.

You still fail to understand what cheating means. Trans girls are playing within the rules set by the clubs and leagues that allow them to participate.

Also, why do you continue to ignore the most important reasons for allowing trans participation, an important one is to foster inclusivity. Another, or course, is free market capitalism. If you can't handle the fact that many private entities understand it is for the betterment of society, well too bad for you.

 

[SurFutbol]

1) Another "it's too rare to be bothered by" argument
2) No one has ever argued about locker rooms or beard stubble
3) No one cares about rec and school level sports
4) Who is "anti-trans"? I'm pro-fairness. I support all trans kids the right to live their lives how they see fit, right up until it negatively impacts others.

Why do you assume that allowing a 13 year old trans girl to play with other girls "negatively" impacts others? And why don't you care at all about the negative impact on trans girls? The reality is that allowing trans girls to play with other girls actually benefits others by supporting inclusivity and helping break down inappropriate and false stereotypes. The fact that you are too blind to see this and that you think that trans girls playing by the rules constitutes cheating are extremely telling.

 

[dad4]

Why do you assume that allowing a 13 year old trans girl to play with other girls "negatively" impacts others? And why don't you care at all about the negative impact on trans girls? The reality is that allowing trans girls to play with other girls actually benefits others by supporting inclusivity and helping break down inappropriate and false stereotypes. The fact that you are too blind to see this and that you think that trans girls playing by the rules constitutes cheating are extremely telling.

Why are your trans girls always 12 or 13? Don’t they get older like everyone else? Where are the 17 year old trans girls in your world? Do they simply not exist?

 

[dad4]

The third division would be college only not youth sports (for which we’ve established we don’t care and in any case you could only obtain a critical mass at a large college…not at a high school). Like I said before no good options but if folks like you are going to object to any accommodation on the college level as being inherently unfair due to puberty, in incentives from a third league are outweighed by even having a participation option since neither the ftms nor mtfs can compete with a male on full testosterone. It also wouldn’t be a trans division. Like the ny marathon it would encompass those non-binary wishing to play under something other than their birth gender

My point is that, if there are college scholarships involved, parents will do stupid shit. A college trans league is a good idea, and make sure they have good field access. Adding scholarships creates unfortunate incentives for parents of high school age kids going through a difficult time.

 

[Grace T.]

My point is that, if there are college scholarships involved, parents will do stupid shit. A college trans league is a good idea, and make sure they have good field access. Adding scholarships creates unfortunate incentives for parents of high school age kids going through a difficult time.

Not if the nonbinary are included. The nonbinary don't have to do anything to their body to qualify. FTM therefore won't be an issue. The issue would be MTF and at one point do you let them into this 3rd league with the testosterone advantage or do you just let those nonbinary birth males compete in the 3rd league. Without scholarships, you won't be able to get the league off the ground because the incentive for the FTM would be to suffer it out in their league and remain scholarship eligible (as the one case we discussed show) and the MTF would have no incentive to buy into not wanting to play with the F.

Funny how everyone of your solutions to the problem of FTM and MTF not being able to compete with a full blown male on testosterone is too bad so sad....f the trans people

 

[SurFutbol]

Why are your trans girls always 12 or 13? Don’t they get older like everyone else? Where are the 17 year old trans girls in your world? Do they simply not exist?

Thank you for asking. Primarily to emphasize how ridiculous it would be to completely ban trans girls from participating with other girls at all age groups, as many people here propose. At that age, every single argument against trans participation falls apart. There are no legitimate safety issues. There are no legitimate arguments that the importance or "sanctity" of a U13 soccer game outweighs either the benefits of inclusivity or abandoning free market capitalism in efforts to prohibit private companies from letting them participate. There is no risk that a child might lose a college scholarship because a trans girls "stole" their playing time back when they were 12. There is no risk that any child with any future in soccer whatsoever will lose any meaningful time. There are no legitimate concerns about getting raped in a bathroom, and there are no legitimate concerns about showering together because neither elementary schools nor clubs have group showers at that age anyway. Furthermore, we both know from a prior thread how abysmal and horrific this transphobic invasion of small children's privacy is not worth their hysterical fears that their daughter might lose a f**king kiddie soccer game. Not only are there no compelling reasons to want to ban a 12 year old trans girl, there are no legitimate ones. Using young children as examples exposes transphobes for what they are and shows that their bs arguments are just excuses to mask transphobia, pure and simple.

The real question you should be asking is where are the 12 and 13 year old trans girls in the world of transphobes? Why aren't you asking that? The truth is, and as I have said many times, I (and everyone who supports trans participation) believes in limits, greater restrictions and potentially even outright bans on trans participation as kids get older and sports more "important", at least at the college and pro level. I'm not the problem here. I understand which arguments on both sides are legitimate considerations and which are not. It's the mouth-breathing transphobes who can't put together a coherent argument against trans participation at younger age groups and who so lack empathy for trans children that they refuse to recognize that the benefits of trans inclusivity and education is even a legitimate thing to consider. Anyone who is unwilling to recognize this is just a shitbag transphobe who will never understand why they are on the losing side, and why it continues to be important to "err" on the side of supporting trans participation even at older age groups even if that means a couple Karens might lose a track race in CT - and then their pathetic lawsuit.

 

[Happened again]

Thank you for asking. Primarily to emphasize how ridiculous it would be to completely ban trans girls from participating with other girls at all age groups, as many people here propose. At that age, every single argument against trans participation falls apart. There are no legitimate safety issues. There are no legitimate arguments that the importance or "sanctity" of a U13 soccer game outweighs either the benefits of inclusivity or abandoning free market capitalism in efforts to prohibit private companies from letting them participate. There is no risk that a child might lose a college scholarship because a trans girls "stole" their playing time back when they were 12. There is no risk that any child with any future in soccer whatsoever will lose any meaningful time. There are no legitimate concerns about getting raped in a bathroom, and there are no legitimate concerns about showering together because neither elementary schools nor clubs have group showers at that age anyway. Furthermore, we both know from a prior thread how abysmal and horrific this transphobic invasion of small children's privacy is not worth their hysterical fears that their daughter might lose a f**king kiddie soccer game. Not only are there no compelling reasons to want to ban a 12 year old trans girl, there are no legitimate ones. Using young children as examples exposes transphobes for what they are and shows that their bs arguments are just excuses to mask transphobia, pure and simple.

The real question you should be asking is where are the 12 and 13 year old trans girls in the world of transphobes? Why aren't you asking that? The truth is, and as I have said many times, I (and everyone who supports trans participation) believes in limits, greater restrictions and potentially even outright bans on trans participation as kids get older and sports more "important", at least at the college and pro level. I'm not the problem here. I understand which arguments on both sides are legitimate considerations and which are not. It's the mouth-breathing transphobes who can't put together a coherent argument against trans participation at younger age groups and who so lack empathy for trans children that they refuse to recognize that the benefits of trans inclusivity and education is even a legitimate thing to consider. Anyone who is unwilling to recognize this is just a shitbag transphobe who will never understand why they are on the losing side, and why it continues to be important to "err" on the side of supporting trans participation even at older age groups even if that means a couple Karens might lose a track race in CT - and then their pathetic lawsuit.

your comprehension skills are like my kids when they were 12-13. Your argumentative skills are like those of a newly minted barrister.

For argument's sake, how do you compare the physiological differences between 12-13 boy/girl and how do they evolve when they are 16-18? Just asking.

 

[SurFutbol]

your comprehension skills are like my kids when they were 12-13. Your argumentative skills are like those of a newly minted barrister.

For argument's sake, how do you compare the physiological differences between 12-13 boy/girl and how do they evolve when they are 16-18? Just asking.

For purposes of ECNL, not a big deal for purposes of allowing trans girls to play with other girls. If a 17 year old girl can't be competitive against a team that has a trans player, that's too bad for them and they're not good enough to play in college anyway. Never in history has a trans girl dominated ECNL, and never in history will one.

Now, if you're going to create fake hypotheticals about what might happen if your 17 year old daughter fought a trans girl in MMA, well that's another story. Same if you speculate, like someone else did, that an entire team of transphobic shitbags might enter into a girls soccer tournament, the club lets the team happen, the tournament lets them in, and then the opposing team plays them (none of which will ever fucking btw), then that would be a problem. But we're not talking fantasyland, we are talking reality. In the end, you and your transphobic friends just need to keep making up fake impossible hypotheticals because the things that are actually happening contradict all of your fears.

It's funny how you and your transphobic friends keep saying I don't make sense, although all I keep saying are the things that ECNL, and the NCAA, the State of California and others keep saying to explain why trans players are allowed to participate. But you think fully grown adults who are afraid of 12 year old (or any age) trans girls are the sane ones? You think fully grown adults who lose their minds over the possibility that their 12 year old princess might not win a soccer trophy are the sane ones? The guy who tried to publicly out a 12 year old girl who "looked trans" is sane? The guy who claims that trans girls who are playing in compliance with the rules set by a private f**king company are "cheaters" is sane? Sure. Honestly, all you and your friends keep doing is proving how important it is to continue fostering environments that prioritize inclusivity over whatever toxic rah rah "sanctity of sport" bs you keep whining about.

 

[Happened again]

For purposes of ECNL, not a big deal for purposes of allowing trans girls to play with other girls. If a 17 year old girl can't be competitive against a team that has a trans player, that's too bad for them and they're not good enough to play in college anyway. Never in history has a trans girl dominated ECNL, and never in history will one.

Now, if you're going to create fake hypotheticals about what might happen if your 17 year old daughter fought a trans girl in MMA, well that's another story. Same if you speculate, like someone else did, that an entire team of transphobic shitbags might enter into a girls soccer tournament, the club lets the team happen, the tournament lets them in, and then the opposing team plays them (none of which will ever fucking btw), then that would be a problem. But we're not talking fantasyland, we are talking reality. In the end, you and your transphobic friends just need to keep making up fake impossible hypotheticals because the things that are actually happening contradict all of your fears.

It's funny how you and your transphobic friends keep saying I don't make sense, although all I keep saying are the things that ECNL, and the NCAA, the State of California and others keep saying to explain why trans players are allowed to participate. But you think fully grown adults who are afraid of 12 year old (or any age) trans girls are the sane ones? You think fully grown adults who lose their minds over the possibility that their 12 year old princess might not win a soccer trophy are the sane ones? The guy who tried to publicly out a 12 year old girl who "looked trans" is sane? The guy who claims that trans girls who are playing in compliance with the rules set by a private f**king company are "cheaters" is sane? Sure. Honestly, all you and your friends keep doing is proving how important it is to continue fostering environments that prioritize inclusivity over whatever toxic rah rah "sanctity of sport" bs you keep whining about.

nice job barrister - keep moving the goalposts and keep arguing with yourself. If your premise is there isn't a difference between a 17 year old boy and a 17 year girl who both happen to be elite athletes, then your grasp of A & P is very low. Maybe you didn't cover that in your barrister studies.

I have no idea who you are talking about when you reference an adult publicly ridiculing a child, that isn't sane. And if it happened on this forum, then shame on them. My youngest played with boys through age 13....after that, things change....it's the way i goes. To argue anything else is purely for stunt.