You are the one changing the definition of cheating, and also seem to be under the misunderstanding that "cheating" means "not doing what I want". Trans girls who participate in sports with and against other girls are doing so in accordance with both the law and the league rules no matter how much it bothers you.
Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
- Start date
You are the one changing the definition of cheating, and also seem to be under the misunderstanding that "cheating" means "not doing what I want". Trans girls who participate in sports with and against other girls are doing so in accordance with both the law and the league rules no matter how much it bothers you.
GLangevinito
SILVER
Your arguments, as I've said:
- It's too rare to be bothered about
- Other people cheat too why target MTF kids
I've addressed this all ad nauseam.
GLangevinito
SILVER
1) Another "it's too rare to be bothered by" argument
2) No one has ever argued about locker rooms or beard stubble
3) No one cares about rec and school level sports
4) Who is "anti-trans"? I'm pro-fairness. I support all trans kids the right to live their lives how they see fit, right up until it negatively impacts others.
I don't really care if all sports scholarships go away. It’s a silly reason to go to college anyway.
Creating a tier of trans scholarships is a bad idea in its own way. Not because I object to trans sports teams, but I don’t like incentives around medical decisions. People get crazy when chasing a scholarship. Do you really want some misguided parent pressuring their kid to rush transition because they ran the numbers and think the odds are best as a trans basketball player?
The third division would be college only not youth sports (for which we’ve established we don’t care and in any case you could only obtain a critical mass at a large college…not at a high school). Like I said before no good options but if folks like you are going to object to any accommodation on the college level as being inherently unfair due to puberty, in incentives from a third league are outweighed by even having a participation option since neither the ftms nor mtfs can compete with a male on full testosterone. It also wouldn’t be a trans division. Like the ny marathon it would encompass those non-binary wishing to play under something other than their birth gender
No you haven’t. You’ve never addressed why an overt cheater should get off Scott free while the trans (who are transitioning for reasons other than sports) should be penalized. Nobody here has been able to articulate a rational other than convenience (don’t want to be burdened yourself) or ease of detection (which is just incorrect, impossible without testing if you have birth certificates acting as a shield, and has the externality that cis girls will be accused). What I suspect is folks like you and dad4 have a morality argument you want to make but are afraid to make it.
School level sports? You’ve got it completely backwards man. The main issue is in some individual school based sports like track and swimming where testosterone including peds make a huge difference. That’s where the headlines have been. Club sports outside the context of the mls academies and national team camps? They are just glorified kiddie soccer for which we don’t even drug screen.
You still fail to understand what cheating means. Trans girls are playing within the rules set by the clubs and leagues that allow them to participate.
Also, why do you continue to ignore the most important reasons for allowing trans participation, an important one is to foster inclusivity. Another, or course, is free market capitalism. If you can't handle the fact that many private entities understand it is for the betterment of society, well too bad for you.
Why do you assume that allowing a 13 year old trans girl to play with other girls "negatively" impacts others? And why don't you care at all about the negative impact on trans girls? The reality is that allowing trans girls to play with other girls actually benefits others by supporting inclusivity and helping break down inappropriate and false stereotypes. The fact that you are too blind to see this and that you think that trans girls playing by the rules constitutes cheating are extremely telling.
Why are your trans girls always 12 or 13? Don’t they get older like everyone else? Where are the 17 year old trans girls in your world? Do they simply not exist?
My point is that, if there are college scholarships involved, parents will do stupid shit. A college trans league is a good idea, and make sure they have good field access. Adding scholarships creates unfortunate incentives for parents of high school age kids going through a difficult time.
Not if the nonbinary are included. The nonbinary don't have to do anything to their body to qualify. FTM therefore won't be an issue. The issue would be MTF and at one point do you let them into this 3rd league with the testosterone advantage or do you just let those nonbinary birth males compete in the 3rd league. Without scholarships, you won't be able to get the league off the ground because the incentive for the FTM would be to suffer it out in their league and remain scholarship eligible (as the one case we discussed show) and the MTF would have no incentive to buy into not wanting to play with the F.
Funny how everyone of your solutions to the problem of FTM and MTF not being able to compete with a full blown male on testosterone is too bad so sad....f the trans people
Thank you for asking. Primarily to emphasize how ridiculous it would be to completely ban trans girls from participating with other girls at all age groups, as many people here propose. At that age, every single argument against trans participation falls apart. There are no legitimate safety issues. There are no legitimate arguments that the importance or "sanctity" of a U13 soccer game outweighs either the benefits of inclusivity or abandoning free market capitalism in efforts to prohibit private companies from letting them participate. There is no risk that a child might lose a college scholarship because a trans girls "stole" their playing time back when they were 12. There is no risk that any child with any future in soccer whatsoever will lose any meaningful time. There are no legitimate concerns about getting raped in a bathroom, and there are no legitimate concerns about showering together because neither elementary schools nor clubs have group showers at that age anyway. Furthermore, we both know from a prior thread how abysmal and horrific this transphobic invasion of small children's privacy is not worth their hysterical fears that their daughter might lose a f**king kiddie soccer game. Not only are there no compelling reasons to want to ban a 12 year old trans girl, there are no legitimate ones. Using young children as examples exposes transphobes for what they are and shows that their bs arguments are just excuses to mask transphobia, pure and simple.
The real question you should be asking is where are the 12 and 13 year old trans girls in the world of transphobes? Why aren't you asking that? The truth is, and as I have said many times, I (and everyone who supports trans participation) believes in limits, greater restrictions and potentially even outright bans on trans participation as kids get older and sports more "important", at least at the college and pro level. I'm not the problem here. I understand which arguments on both sides are legitimate considerations and which are not. It's the mouth-breathing transphobes who can't put together a coherent argument against trans participation at younger age groups and who so lack empathy for trans children that they refuse to recognize that the benefits of trans inclusivity and education is even a legitimate thing to consider. Anyone who is unwilling to recognize this is just a shitbag transphobe who will never understand why they are on the losing side, and why it continues to be important to "err" on the side of supporting trans participation even at older age groups even if that means a couple Karens might lose a track race in CT - and then their pathetic lawsuit.
Happened again
SILVER ELITE
your comprehension skills are like my kids when they were 12-13. Your argumentative skills are like those of a newly minted barrister.
For argument's sake, how do you compare the physiological differences between 12-13 boy/girl and how do they evolve when they are 16-18? Just asking.
For purposes of ECNL, not a big deal for purposes of allowing trans girls to play with other girls. If a 17 year old girl can't be competitive against a team that has a trans player, that's too bad for them and they're not good enough to play in college anyway. Never in history has a trans girl dominated ECNL, and never in history will one.
Now, if you're going to create fake hypotheticals about what might happen if your 17 year old daughter fought a trans girl in MMA, well that's another story. Same if you speculate, like someone else did, that an entire team of transphobic shitbags might enter into a girls soccer tournament, the club lets the team happen, the tournament lets them in, and then the opposing team plays them (none of which will ever fucking btw), then that would be a problem. But we're not talking fantasyland, we are talking reality. In the end, you and your transphobic friends just need to keep making up fake impossible hypotheticals because the things that are actually happening contradict all of your fears.
It's funny how you and your transphobic friends keep saying I don't make sense, although all I keep saying are the things that ECNL, and the NCAA, the State of California and others keep saying to explain why trans players are allowed to participate. But you think fully grown adults who are afraid of 12 year old (or any age) trans girls are the sane ones? You think fully grown adults who lose their minds over the possibility that their 12 year old princess might not win a soccer trophy are the sane ones? The guy who tried to publicly out a 12 year old girl who "looked trans" is sane? The guy who claims that trans girls who are playing in compliance with the rules set by a private f**king company are "cheaters" is sane? Sure. Honestly, all you and your friends keep doing is proving how important it is to continue fostering environments that prioritize inclusivity over whatever toxic rah rah "sanctity of sport" bs you keep whining about.
Happened again
SILVER ELITE
nice job barrister - keep moving the goalposts and keep arguing with yourself. If your premise is there isn't a difference between a 17 year old boy and a 17 year girl who both happen to be elite athletes, then your grasp of A & P is very low. Maybe you didn't cover that in your barrister studies.
I have no idea who you are talking about when you reference an adult publicly ridiculing a child, that isn't sane. And if it happened on this forum, then shame on them. My youngest played with boys through age 13....after that, things change....it's the way i goes. To argue anything else is purely for stunt.
You didn’t answer the question.
He asked, “how do you compare the physiological differences between 12-13 boy/girl and how do they evolve when they are 16-18?”
Based on your arguments so far, I’d assume that you don’t actually know.
Yes there absolutely is a difference athlete to athlete. But with 11 players on the team that 1 player just simply isn’t going to make that much of an impact. If you are worried about team balances and trophies cap the number that can play on any team. I have yet to hear of a team ever playing with more than 1 on any sport and even 2 would be pushing the probability numbers.
if you are worried about the weakest player on the team being pushed out, I note that potentially could happen if one of the players is dopp ing or if a ftm is on the team taking testosterone.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
Ok, so, what does your ideal competitive landscape look like at the college, Olympic, and professional levels? Let me throw something out there that you can adjust to how you see it. Bonus points for a short summary - which can be followed by a more detailed explanation
.Competition categories in the order of testosterone advantage. I'm not actually sure about my ordering of MTF vs. FTM.
- Biologically born Males
- Trans MTF with hormone treatments
- Trans FTM with hormone treatments
- Biologically born Females
You can "play up".
There is a process to handle medical exceptions.
What does MTF and FTM stand for? I know what FMF and FFM mean but these three letters have me confused. It's like "dd" when I first came here 11 years ago.Ok, so, what does your ideal competitive landscape look like at the college, Olympic, and professional levels? Let me throw something out there that you can adjust to how you see it. Bonus points for a short summary - which can be followed by a more detailed explanation
Competition categories in the order of testosterone advantage. I'm not actually sure about my ordering of MTF vs. FTM.
- Biologically born Males
- Trans MTF with hormone treatments
- Trans FTM with hormone treatments
- Biologically born Females
You can "play up".
There is a process to handle medical exceptions.