To certain extent to start I think you’d have to lump them in together including with the non-binary in order to get a critical mass. From there you’d need experts to differentiate “fairness” since they’d have a better idea of the evolving science (one of the reasons we have the old ncaa rules in various sports is because the science in the 90s thought it was enough). It’s easier in individual sports than team sports and individual sports could have more differentiation (the way marathons have age categories). I think you absolutely need to scholarship to gain critical mass because otherwise the ftm just stay f until post college to preserve their scholarship (like the case dad4 brought up) and the mtf will insist on playing f for the sake of equity and acceptance (you are essentially buying their buy in). In team sports I think it’s premature to think about (maybe 10 years out) because we don’t know how the non-binary play out. This may remain a tiny issue affecting only a handful of people or it could become a big one that wrecks the title ix system as it exists today.Ok, so, what does your ideal competitive landscape look like at the college, Olympic, and professional levels? Let me throw something out there that you can adjust to how you see it. Bonus points for a short summary - which can be followed by a more detailed explanation.
Competition categories in the order of testosterone advantage. I'm not actually sure about my ordering of MTF vs. FTM.
- Biologically born Males
- Trans MTF with hormone treatments
- Trans FTM with hormone treatments
- Biologically born Females
You can "play up".
There is a process to handle medical exceptions.
Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
- Start date
I did answer your question. Again, the differences are insufficient to matter for purposes of allowing a trans girl play youth soccer. This has actually been evaluated by both ECNL and the State of California, which agree with me. Regardless, you're really the one who needs to answer these questions, though, and explain how the differences between 12-13 year old boys are girls are so vast that it justifies prohibiting trans girls from playing with other girls, since you're the transphobic one who seems to think that trans girls are dangerous, and despite the fact that trans girls have been playing ECNL for years, yet never once has one ever injured anyone or even dominated ECNL.
What really makes your fake outrage ridiculous, though, is the fact that the "physiological" differences - by which I take it you mean athleticism - between every single trans and biological girl that has ever played competitive youth soccer is less than the differences between just the biological girls who play in those leagues. No trans girl has ever dominated ECNL or GDA when it existed. In fact, I don't believe a trans player has ever even been named to an all-conference team. If you and your daughter are scared of players who are less athletic and "physiologically" dominating than even many biological girls in the league, you have no business in elite girls soccer.
GLangevinito
SILVER
Back to your "Oh well, it's not that big of a problem" argument. Unless you are the girl who gets dropped, I suppose.
Yet!!! Or maybe they have.
Regardless, it's now super popular among some of the boys who want to be 100% fully female. More and more are transitioning into becoming a female so we need to know a few things:
transitioning
undergo or cause to undergo a process or period of transition.
"he transitioned into filmmaking easily"
Transitioning into a female is not easy like filmmaking is. The first step to "undergo" to get everyone's attention is to cut it off. That is where the conversation of undergo begins. If the male does that, then out of respect we should all here his/her case individually. I think what's hard to take is the Lia case and the Ivy allowing him to compete against the girls as a biological female, even though he is 100% male still. If were talking about young teen males doing the unthinkable, then they should be allowed a waiver if they meet certain requirements from the rules committee. I would not allow my son to chop it off. No way man. He would have to wait until he's 18 or go to court to go early. I wouldn't fight him, but I wouldn't sign off either. After he does it, then I will love her and be her dad now.
GLangevinito
SILVER
For sure the advantages are small that boys have over girls athletically until puberty hits. And it's different for every kid. I remember my 10-year old son's team getting bullied by the 10-year old girls team in a scrimmage back in the day.
We are discussing something that is not a critical issue, yet. But that doesn't mean we can't discuss it.
That No. 18 could get dropped because the No.1 or the No 17. is taking PAD. Funny how you don't care about that (also you guys are always complaining that ECNL is so watered down...until there's a real academy system, we are talking No.500 that is pushed down....on the boys side with PEDs that's happening by age 18 all the time...nobody seems to care about them either).
100%. My dd old youth team played all boys team from El Monte and we crushed them. We were a year older and those boys took heat from their dads big time. Their was a girl on their team that was really good that never played on a girls team and last I heard, might be a pro now in Mexico.
The U15 Quakes Academy team just beat the Chinese National Women's Team 1-0 in a scrimmage. Granted, neither team is the top in their category but it shows the different impact between girls and boys. But also note it's a team of all boys v. a team of all women (in 11 1 player doesn't make that much of an impact...if that were true China would have won because their GK is a beast and at age 15 the academy goalkeepers are just beginning to come into their form....girl's basketball is a different story....as are the individual sports for which the difference is vast).
The other thing I don't get is why private trainers (field and goalkeepers) sometimes do mix groups after puberty. It's really not "fair" (as long as we are throwing around that word) to the boys. it's like putting the older boys in with 12 year olds.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
MTF - Male to Female
FTM - Female to Male
That's what I was trying to represent. It wouldn't be the first time I got one of the new acronyms wrong if what I represented isn't the common usage.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
Sorry, @Grace T. , I have a couple of clarifications.
- Is "nonbinary" a different group than any of the four I initially identified?
- With consideration for your answer to my question above, what groups will we need to lump together?
I thought it was Male Transitioned Female. My buddy kid went Female Trans Male and is very happy last I heard. I have not met a Males Trans to Female. Lia is the only one I know that has come out and competed and took medals away for the girls. He is not a MTF yet.
So, your answer is that you believe that there are no ”sufficient” athletic differences between a 17 year old boy and a 17 year old girl?
Let me help you out.
After about 17, boys are approximately 10% faster, 4 inches taller, and 50% stronger than girls.
Check out the olympic, D1, or high school records for sprint and weightlifting if you don’t believe me. The men’s record will be 10% faster for a sprint event, or 50% heavier for a strength event.
A nonbinary person is a person who declines to identify as either m or f. California now allows you to declare "x" on your birth certificates. It's not known (as far as I know) how many people have taken them up on it, but a stunning 6% of UC students in a recent survey identified as such (it's unknown, however, how many of them took it seriously to the point of changing their birth certificate). From a birth certificate point of view, we have a records problem if the x becomes large enough because now we have a third whole category of people The question is what portion of them (born xx, xy, or the very rare other) would want to compete as nonbinary. I also note for some reason the nonbinary seem to be running higher in the genetically xx population (whereas among trans MTF runs higher than FTM). Finally, the nonbinary are not looking to change their gender from f to m or from m to f, so they don't necessarily do anything to their bodies (so it would be difficult to place an xy born male into this group without running into the same fairness arguments as with the MTF looking to play f).
So you could potentially lump together FTM, MTF, the nonbinary, and the know genetically different (that raises a whole host of questions for dad4's genetic test regime: would you want your daughter to be discovered to be genetically aberrant...at least she has scholarship opportunities now!). The question, particularly for MTF, is when does the testosterone level drop to the avoid that they can compete in this middle group. That's a science based question I don't know the answer to.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
Ah, right. In addition to the now universal(?) GBP, California parents can signup their newborns for the GDP. California. Ahead of the curve. Always.
Thank you, @Grace T.
And yet never in history has a trans soccer player ever been 10% faster, 4 inches taller and 50% stronger than a substantial percentage of the youth players playing elite girls soccer in ECNL or GDA. Did you also wet the bed growing up because you were afraid of non-existent bogeypersons then too?
Seriously, I can't imagine how frail you and your daughter must be to be so scared of a non-existent problem. My girl is 5'4" and maybe 120 pounds and easily dominated every trans player she played against in club soccer. In fact, she was more "physiologically" capable than every single female comp soccer player in U.S. history. If you're worried that your kid will get dominated by bigger, stronger and faster opponents, it's a good thing she never had to play against Catarina Macario, Madison Haley, Maya Doms and Naomi Girma when they were at Stanford. A trans girl on an ECNL team is no big deal unless you're a pathetic whiner who is looking for excuses to rationalize why their daughter isn't very good at soccer.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
For affirmative action, how do they determine that someone doesn't qualify? Understanding this may give insight into a reasonable path for handling the non-binary case.
The true solution is to allow gender's definition to be co-opted and proclaimed as each individual sees fit and replace gender on birth certificates with a line the Doctor completes:
Doctor, please circle one: "Penised or Non-Penised"
Or
Phallused or Non-Phallused
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
I attempted to use the most common reference that isn't offensive. I believe Phallus is marginally less offensive (2 out of 10) than Penis (3 out of 10) on the OS, but it may require Googling more often. Everything's a trade-off.
You have to watch what you say these days bro. You could just say, "Dick and Non-Dick." All this is a trip. Our big debating has come down to normalizing grown ass men to just say the magic words, "I am female" and "wham, bam, thank you mam" and you get to now compete against girls in NCAA swimming and use the girls bathrooms and locker rooms. This is bat shit crazy and mind blowing all in one bro.