Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

Just finished reading from about the middle of this thread until the end. 500 messages is impressive.

I have three cis het (as far as I know) daughters who play competitive soccer (I also have a son, my oldest, but he’s not a soccer player). I have been talking to my daughters about trans kids for a long time and I remember conversations with my older daughter over the hysteria in the news of a trans girl theoretically being in the middle school locker room back in the day (she did not care). It’s always interesting talking to our kids about these issues to see where they are, especially something that gets more complicated as the athletes get older and the stakes are higher.

Since I know all of you have been middle- and high-schoolers at some point and many/most of us have or are parenting kids that age, I wonder how many boys would live a life as a trans girl just to (i) use the girls’ bathroom/locker room and/or (ii) compete against girls. I am not talking about a boy simply saying, “I identify as a girl so give me a uniform and a spot on the girls’ team” b/c that’s not a trans girl and to think there are boys doing that to get an edge diminishes the struggle of coming out as trans (and also includes a view that does not match any adolescent boy I have ever known but perhaps that’s just me). Is there a team of girls like that - trans girls coming together to form a super team to take advantage of a biological difference? Or is it the trans girl who is only known as trans to people who have known her a long time or are close to her on the team? Isn’t this a one- or two-off situation? I know how my own daughters would see this - and do see this - whether it is competing with or against a trans athlete.
 
This is just another version of Grace's and SurFutbol's main argument: it's not a problem yet so why are we discussing it?

It's mostly a theoretical problem as of today. But it's something all youth sports will have to deal with, and like it or not, there are only so many spots on elite teams. There are only so many scholarships per team. Starting at puberty, and widening every year, is an athleticism gap between boys and girls. If we take the hypothetical that a 17 boy begins to transition to a woman, and is good enough to play on a top girls team - who loses their spot? Who loses playtime? Who loses a potential scholarship?

Maybe SF is right and it just sucks for the girl who loses out, but we tell her to make that sacrifice in the name of inclusivity. I don't know.
 
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GLangevinito said:
Who loses a potential scholarship?
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In the end, everything always come down to money.

(if you separate into a third league, BTW, the girl still loses her scholarship, because the reality is also the transitioning FTM and MTFs can't compete with a cis male full blown actively on testosterone).
 
Unless one believes the numbers of non-binary/trans youth will explode or that adolescent boys will suddenly fake being trans in order to dominate on the field, the issue won’t change much in terms of numbers. It might change in terms of our understanding of what it means to be trans and/or our tolerance/intolerance and/or our views on inclusion.
 
dk_b said:
Unless one believes the numbers of non-binary/trans youth will explode or that adolescent boys will suddenly fake being trans in order to dominate on the field, the issue won’t change much in terms of numbers. It might change in terms of our understanding of what it means to be trans and/or our tolerance/intolerance and/or our views on inclusion.
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I think the numbers are small mostly because it is not socially acceptable. No one wants to be the next Lia Thomas.

Take away the social norms, and I don't see any reason the numbers would stay small.
 
Grace T. said:
In the end, everything always come down to money.

(if you separate into a third league, BTW, the girl still loses her scholarship, because the reality is also the transitioning FTM and MTFs can't compete with a cis male full blown actively on testosterone).
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Yeah, money, and opportunities. The only solution you've offered is "Sucks for you" to girls.
 
GLangevinito said:
Yeah, money, and opportunities. The only solution you've offered is "Sucks for you" to girls.
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That’s a bad faith lie and you know it. At the youth level I’ve said it doesn’t matter because we don’t test for cheaters. Want it to matter? Screen (both the boys and girls). And while you’re at it set up a true women’s elite academy level, not ecnl kiddie ball everyone is always complain about.

at the college level I said there has to be a balancing act. Where that line is drawn has to be scientific. If we can’t scientifically draw that line set up a separate league and some girls and boys will have to give up their scholarships (since they won’t take it from football the boy soccer players will be hit hardest…that is unless women’s football takes off: because if so your scholarships will be cut by 1/4-1/6 anyway before you even get to the transgendered).
 
Grace T. said:
That’s a bad faith lie and you know it. At the youth level I’ve said it doesn’t matter because we don’t test for cheaters. Want it to matter? Screen (both the boys and girls). And while you’re at it set up a true women’s elite academy level, not ecnl kiddie ball everyone is always complain about.

at the college level I said there has to be a balancing act. Where that line is drawn has to be scientific. If we can’t scientifically draw that line set up a separate league and some girls and boys will have to give up their scholarships (since they won’t take it from football the boy soccer players will be hit hardest…that is unless women’s football takes off: because if so your scholarships will be cut by 1/4-1/6 anyway before you even get to the transgendered).
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If you want to compare to PED use....

The policy for PED is that PED are not allowed in girls youth soccer, but we mostly don't test.

Are you suggesting that we should adopt exactly that policy for mtf trans athletes in post-puberty girls events? Not allowed, but minimal enforcement?

It would be reasonable.
 
dad4 said:
If you want to compare to PED use....

The policy for PED is that PED are not allowed in girls youth soccer, but we mostly don't test.

Are you suggesting that we should adopt exactly that policy for mtf trans athletes in post-puberty girls events? Not allowed, but minimal enforcement?

It would be reasonable.
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I would characterize it that we turn a blind eye to it because there is not even minimum enforcement. It would it would at least be logically consistent (which has been my prime objection to both extremists: before you argue pro or con any position you have to be logically consistent…you’ll recall from our Covid debates I can’t stand hypocrisy). Turning a blind eye in this case would be a birth certificate test (prevents the canard of some boy just declaring himself a girl and going on living his life unaltered which was never a real concern anyways).
 
Grace T. said:
And while you’re at it set up a true women’s elite academy level, not ecnl kiddie ball everyone is always complain about.

at the college level I said there has to be a balancing act. Where that line is drawn has to be scientific. If we can’t scientifically draw that line set up a separate league and some girls and boys will have to give up their scholarships (since they won’t take it from football the boy soccer players will be hit hardest…that is unless women’s football takes off: because if so your scholarships will be cut by 1/4-1/6 anyway before you even get to the transgendered).
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To enforce any of this, testing will need to be done on everyone - at least in states that allow you to change your gender on your birth certificate or states that are so scientifically advanced they cannot distinguish between a male or female at birth. It will need to be done before any scholarship is offered, with prospective coaches wanting it sooner to verify the child is eligible to play their sport. Interesting times.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
To enforce any of this, testing will need to be done on everyone - at least in states that allow you to change your gender on your birth certificate or states that are so scientifically advanced they cannot distinguish between a male or female at birth. It will need to be done before any scholarship is offered, with prospective coaches wanting it sooner to verify the child is eligible to play their sport. Interesting times.
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It sure is a trip brother. I told you long ago that the WOMAN (Mother Earth or Ancient Mother) will be restored to her rightful place on earth, which is equal rights and being treated fair by the men. Man has brute physical strength to control a woman and make her submit to his rules. Woman have the 'POP." It's time to work together. Rule #1. No man with a "peter" can call himself female to play sports against the females. If 18 year males gets rid of his peter then the rules committee can hear the case. Weight and height 100% will also go into the decision process. I'm open to this way but not the Lia way, no way.
 
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kickingandscreaming said:
The angry, talking point troll is the one that does that. The name will change again soon, but they are all the same.
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Angry transphobe is upset that he can't have things his way. No matter how much you keep whining, ECNL, CIF, the NCAA, the NWSL and the Olympics all agree with me. Unlike you and your transphobic friends, we actually have solutions that have been implemented for years. All you have is hate and apparent self-pity that your daughter isn't good enough at soccer to compete against a team that might have a trans girl.
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
Even discussing it generally makes it hard on these children. All they want is to lead a normal life, but haters seem to think what they are really doing is trying to find a way to get a hand up in life to ruin someone else's athletic dreams. lol, yeah, that's the first thing on a 10-year old's mind: how can I ruin some one else's dreams of playing in college?
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I think that argument from the "haters" was about professional athletes. With the younger athletes, there is clearly an unfair advantage. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...dge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764
 
Maximus09 said:
I think that argument from the "haters" was about professional athletes. With the younger athletes, there is clearly an unfair advantage. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...dge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764
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If you understood what "unfair" means, you would also understand that with younger athletes there is clearly an unfair advantage for biological girls who don't have to worry about being mocked and humiliated every day of their lives due to their gender identity. Or are you saying that the results of a U12 girls soccer game are so important to the fabric of society that we really need to continue fostering a social environment that treats trans children horribly?
 
SurFutbol said:
If you understood what "unfair" means, you would also understand that with younger athletes there is clearly an unfair advantage for biological girls who don't have to worry about being mocked and humiliated every day of their lives due to their gender identity. Or are you saying that the results of a U12 girls soccer game are so important to the fabric of society that we really need to continue fostering a social environment that treats trans children horribly?
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Your arguments are: 1) Trans girls have to endure mocking and humiliation so we should just let them keep their athletic advantage, and 2) We should overlook fairness because in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter much.

1) Irrelevant to the issue of fairness on the field.
2) Disagree. You could use the same argument to argue against age separation. Why shouldn't a U18 play U12 if they want to?
 
GLangevinito said:
Your arguments are: 1) Trans girls have to endure mocking and humiliation so we should just let them keep their athletic advantage, and 2) We should overlook fairness because in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter much.

1) Irrelevant to the issue of fairness on the field.
2) Disagree. You could use the same argument to argue against age separation. Why shouldn't a U18 play U12 if they want to?
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Ya, and if that 12 year old dd isn't good enough to keep her roster spot from 18 year old, she's not good enough anyways.
 
SurFutbol said:
If you understood what "unfair" means, you would also understand that with younger athletes there is clearly an unfair advantage for biological girls who don't have to worry about being mocked and humiliated every day of their lives due to their gender identity. Or are you saying that the results of a U12 girls soccer game are so important to the fabric of society that we really need to continue fostering a social environment that treats trans children horribly?
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GLangevinito said:
Your arguments are: 1) Trans girls have to endure mocking and humiliation so we should just let them keep their athletic advantage, and 2) We should overlook fairness because in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter much.

1) Irrelevant to the issue of fairness on the field.
2) Disagree. You could use the same argument to argue against age separation. Why shouldn't a U18 play U12 if they want to?
Click to expand...
Good response
 
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