Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[kickingandscreaming]

Ps I’ve made the case why we need to hunt the unicorns down before the Pegasi. The bottom line is the unicorns are a menace. If you disagree maybe you think the Pegasi are a menace? If so there’s no other other reason except your bias is showing

but to answer the question as to then why no one has jumped onto the cheaters bandwagon…”come on, man”…you know the answer to that: it will inconvenience you, while you (you’ve literally said it too) think rounding up the trans kid will be easy. My argument to that is no it won’t because of California and the way blue states are moving to handling birthcertificates. What will happen is more incidents like the Utah girl being accused of being trans, and then subjected to a school records search (not possible for club soccer esp California), physical exam, genetic test or doping test depending on the test adopted. I don’t just care about the trans kid: I care about the cis girl falsely accused and witch hunted.

bottom line politically: nothing will change so long as California and other blue states move in this direction. They can’t. Unless you want to test everyone the birth certificate is a shield. Wanna change it? Turn California red or move.

I agree that we need to go after cheaters in sports. I spend much less time watching sports than I used to, and that's in part because of disillusionment due to PED use. However, I also realize I am in the minority. Years ago, I was shocked to hear many people on the train talking about Barry Bonds and how they had no right to investigate him, etc. It's no wonder we have so much cheating. It has strong grassroots support. "If you can get away with it, it's not cheating".

 

[espola]

I have to say this is one of the funniest things you’ve written. I literally burst out laughing and caught myself from waking the house. Normally only Espola did that to me

one of the very first arguments raised in this thread was that the trans issue is rare. The response that was something along the lines of “we don’t care” because “it’s about fairness”. Now you seriously gonna argue cheating is as rare as unicorn hunting? If cheating is a unicorn I’m sorry the trans kids then are a Pegasus.

first we don’t know the scope of the problem because youth sports don’t generally do random dope testing. Second I mentioned that I was at a holiday party where the subject came up among football parents…it was openly discussed at the impression I came away with is it’s not just “ rare” but to use the d&d term more “uncommon”…I was even pointed to a doctor that does it if I wanted to join in. Third if you’ve been in this site long enough you know that the age cheaters while not necessarily ubiquitous are out there and that this site for a while carried ads for false papers. In my sons soccer career I’ve run across at least two confirmed age cheaters and countless suspected. Fourth if you see the number of double held athletes out there both boys and girls you’ve got to know parents be crazy and what they are doing right now to get a leg up is crazy (hence everyone here having their panties in a bunch over scholarships). You think soccer is crazy you ain’t seen nothing til you look at the qb world.

now I do think the issue is much more prevalent among the boys (where again on high performing recruited athletes in all sports I’d argue it’s pretty much more than “rare” but without an audit we just won’t know), but before you go Pegasus hunting, yeah you better darn we’ll round up the unicorns or at least confirm they don’t exist. Besides unicorns are a menace eating all the Zonkeys grass and rainbow pooping everywhere. The Pegasi just want to fly up there and be free.

one caveat to this argument: if the non-binary are running at 6% and if the non-binary start to demand accommodations then my argument doesn’t hold up. Then we have a zebra problem and I think then not only do we have a critical mass to form a third league but also it would necessitate that. I don’t think that’s going to happen though…at least not at the youth level…for reasons of the observations you previously made…I could be wrong through.

Laughter has long been recognized by psychologists as a defense mechanism. In my experience, unexpected laughter is often followed by nonsensical blabbering.

 

[Carlsbad7]

I agree that we need to go after cheaters in sports. I spend much less time watching sports than I used to, and that's in part because of disillusionment due to PED use. However, I also realize I am in the minority. Years ago, I was shocked to hear many people on the train talking about Barry Bonds and how they had no right to investigate him, etc. It's no wonder we have so much cheating. It has strong grassroots support. "If you can get away with it, it's not cheating".

Doesnt help that Messi was on HGH as a youth.

Lionel Messi and HGH: The Truth About the Best Footballer in the World

FC Barcelona made the best deal in the history of football, signing a young Lionel Messi from Argentina at the age of 13. The contract, signed on a napkin , was predicated on FCB paying for Messi 's medical treatments ...

bleacherreport.com

 

[espola]

Ps I’ve made the case why we need to hunt the unicorns down before the Pegasi. The bottom line is the unicorns are a menace. If you disagree maybe you think the Pegasi are a menace? If so there’s no other other reason except your bias is showing

but to answer the question as to then why no one has jumped onto the cheaters bandwagon…”come on, man”…you know the answer to that: it will inconvenience you, while you (you’ve literally said it too) think rounding up the trans kid will be easy. My argument to that is no it won’t because of California and the way blue states are moving to handling birthcertificates. What will happen is more incidents like the Utah girl being accused of being trans, and then subjected to a school records search (not possible for club soccer esp California), physical exam, genetic test or doping test depending on the test adopted. I don’t just care about the trans kid: I care about the cis girl falsely accused and witch hunted.

bottom line politically: nothing will change so long as California and other blue states move in this direction. They can’t. Unless you want to test everyone the birth certificate is a shield. Wanna change it? Turn California red or move.

Style guide advice -- if you are going to pluralize Pegasus like that then that implies that you are not referring to the single mythical winged-horse creature, but instead members of a class of similar objects, so you should drop the capital P.

 

[espola]

ok kids are off to sports and morning chores are done so I have time to go on the lap top to cut and paste this. Here's why it made me laugh. Among adolescents in this study back in 2000 3-12% on males (depending age tested) and 1-2% females. There's another here on preadolescents, also somewhat old. Things have gotten crazier as you know in youth sports since then (back then is the era when we were still semi-nice to referees: "hey ref you are an idiot but thanks for being out there").. Even at 1-2% among females we aren't in unicorn territory anymore...we're talking zonkies now. I laughed because it is self-evidently and quite obviously a problem, that I find it really hard how you can think it's a "unicorn".

Doping among adolescent athletes - PubMed

The use of drugs to enhance physical performance and appearance has been observed for thousands of years. Today individuals, including adolescents, continue to employ a wide variety of drugs in the hope of improving their athletic performance and looking better. Unfortunately, beyond the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Doping prevalence among preadolescent athletes: a 4‐year follow‐up

To describe the prevalence of doping and its progression in a cohort of preadolescent athletes during a 4‐year follow‐up.Prospective cohort study. Self‐questionnaire survey.All of the pupils entering the first year of secondary ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Does that include the soccer dad who gives his kid a Red Bull right before game time?

 

[crush]

Does that include the soccer dad who gives his kid a Red Bull right before game time?

I pumped my dd up with Galazo Energy Goal Drink Espola. It worked liked a charm every time

 

[Grace T.]

Does that include the soccer dad who gives his kid a Red Bull right before game time?

Ok you made a semi serious point so I’ll pause from ignoring you here. My test if you are going to go after the trans would be like to like which would be steroids. We can’t argue about hgh and caffeine also and whether it’s cheating. But if you include stimulants in non adhd kids (with adhd kids it’s even higher and I’ve seen figures of the neighborhood of 5-10%) the population figures I’ve seen on the high side are now 20% in the academic context (I know of no numbers for sports and stimulants but I do point out these run higher among the girls than the boys)

back to ignore until you make another lucid point.

 

[espola]

Ok you made a semi serious point so I’ll pause from ignoring you here. My test if you are going to go after the trans would be like to like which would be steroids. We can’t argue about hgh and caffeine also and whether it’s cheating. But if you include stimulants in non adhd kids (with adhd kids it’s even higher and I’ve seen figures of the neighborhood of 5-10%) the population figures I’ve seen on the high side are now 20% in the academic context (I know of no numbers for sports and stimulants but I do point out these run higher among the girls than the boys)

back to ignore until you make another lucid point.

Ignore, is it? I had crush on ignore until I found out he was telling despicable lies about me. It appears now that you have me on ignore because I am telling the truth about you.

 

[crush]

Ignore, is it? I had crush on ignore until I found out he was telling despicable lies about me. It appears now that you have me on ignore because I am telling the truth about you.

Did I get off your ignore list Espola? If I said something that was not true about you or anything else over the years, I sorry 100%. I do write in satire so don't take everything I say as gospel and take everything I say with a grain of salt and your favorite shot of whisky. I have no one on ignore. I have a lot to learn and let me just say I have been wrong on some things. I want to love everyone better and give everyone a second chance forgiveness program, taught with grace and mercy and free mulligans. We all need a few I bet. We can all come together and take down the real liars and cheaters.

 

[Grace T.]

Ignore, is it? I had crush on ignore until I found out he was telling despicable lies about me. It appears now that you have me on ignore because I am telling the truth about you.

You were a lot more amusing during Covid. You’ve been slipping recently. Too much reliance on the old tracks. Bye again (until you say something interesting).

 

[dad4]

Does that include the soccer dad who gives his kid a Red Bull right before game time?

If you read the second article, it was mostly Albuterol. Almost half of positive responses.

You're not going to take away kids' asthma medicine, so forget about that one.

About 10% was steroids. But 10% of 1-2% really isn't much. Puts it more like one or two per thousand. Maybe 20-40 kids in all of ECNL. Even then, you don't know how much was doping and how much was asthma medicine or anti-itch cream.

So, unicorn hunting. Might be worth testing the kids at YNT camps. But probably not much beyond that.

 

[espola]

Did I get off your ignore list Espola? If I said something that was not true about you or anything else over the years, I sorry 100%. I do write in satire so don't take everything I say as gospel and take everything I say with a grain of salt and your favorite shot of whisky. I have no one on ignore. I have a lot to learn and let me just say I have been wrong on some things. I want to love everyone better and give everyone a second chance forgiveness program, taught with grace and mercy and free mulligans. We all need a few I bet. We can all come together and take down the real liars and cheaters.

Liars and cheaters? Start here --

(1) Comedians Use MTG's RIDICULOUS Words Against Her - YouTube

 

[espola]

You were a lot more amusing during Covid. You’ve been slipping recently. Too much reliance on the old tracks. Bye again (until you say something interesting).

This thread has become a bunch of people in a circle saying the same things over and over again.

 

[crush]

You were a lot more amusing during Covid. You’ve been slipping recently. Too much reliance on the old tracks. Bye again (until you say something interesting).

Espola was super nice to me and even liked and laughed at my satire back before the Rona. Well, one day my satire went a bit too far for even Espola and he put the "block" button on me and told everyone on here to ignore me. Many of the other Elites asked Dom to have me band for life. Then I switched avatars names (I was honest about it as well) and took a lot of heat for that. I was called so many names. Here we are 4 years later and Espola has officially taken me off ignore. Grace T, it's time for all us to get back in the ring and have great debates. Its how you get things done. The Art of the Deal. No one get's everything they want. I only want the truth. It's good to see all you back. I stayed on here when no one was debating. Let's debate all this again and then the best ideas will rule the day.

 

[Grace T.]

If you read the second article, it was mostly Albuterol. Almost half of positive responses.

You're not going to take away kids' asthma medicine, so forget about that one.

About 10% was steroids. But 10% of 1-2% really isn't much. Puts it more like one or two per thousand. Maybe 20-40 kids in all of ECNL. Even then, you don't know how much was doping and how much was asthma medicine or anti-itch cream.

So, unicorn hunting. Might be worth testing the kids at YNT camps. But probably not much beyond that.

Then it’s not worth going after the trans people (you have yet to articulate a principle distinguishing the two considering how one is morally worse than the other…or maybe that’s the point…you consider trans morally worse????). Don’t care about the unicorns then you can ignore the pegasi. At least you aren’t stepping in their rainbow poop.

 

[crush]

Liars and cheaters? Start here --

(1) Comedians Use MTG's RIDICULOUS Words Against Her - YouTube

Are these two sisters?

 

[Orangeteam]

So, unicorn hunting. Might be worth testing the kids at YNT camps. But probably not much beyond that.
[/QUOTE]

Kids who go the the USYNT camp are randomly tested for any banned substances.

 

[GLangevinito]

Then it’s not worth going after the trans people (you have yet to articulate a principle distinguishing the two considering how one is morally worse than the other…or maybe that’s the point…you consider trans morally worse????). Don’t care about the unicorns then you can ignore the pegasi. At least you aren’t stepping in their rainbow poop.

Because we do not control for every form of "cheating" if we expand the definition of "cheating" to ridiculous extremes, does not mean that we should just abandon all enforcement. If everyone is cheating, then no one is cheating, right?

In the name of fairness, we control for what we can. Age separation. Sex separation. Skill separation. In some sports, weight separation.

In only one category today can you change where you are placed with just a word, overnight.

 

[Grace T.]

Because we do not control for every form of "cheating" if we expand the definition of "cheating" to ridiculous extremes, does not mean that we should just abandon all enforcement. If everyone is cheating, then no one is cheating, right?

In the name of fairness, we control for what we can. Age separation. Sex separation. Skill separation. In some sports, weight separation.

In only one category today can you change where you are placed with just a word, overnight.

It's a canard to say that people are just changing with one word overnight. Can you imagine the ridicule a boy would receive from his peers if he just decided to go on living like the boy but wanted to play with the girls in order to win, and put any kind of scholarship on the line? You really think that's happening?. If you are concerned, I wouldn't mind a velvet rope: birth certificate change or require the athlete to live in the opposite gender. And to be clear, we are talking the youth level here.

As to the "we control what we can" youth sports does not police for steroids. The MLS Next handbook has 2 pages to putting the MLS in ill repute and 1 sentence about drugs, tobacco and PED. Again, it's pegasi and unicorns (and in the boys case, mules since the number seems close to 1 in 10 among high performing athletes). It's basic logic: if you are concerned about fairness, go after the blatant cheaters first who have no objective other than to simply cheat (the trans kids have other fish to fry in their lives beyond just wanting to get ahead in sports). You talk about fairness but then aren't willing to act fairly because it inconveniences you. The absolute height of hypocrisy.

 

[Grace T.]

Those who don't want trans players to play against girls cite a parade of horribles: a girl might might see a boy's genitals in the locker room; there is an unfair "testosterone-based" advantage; a boy might fake his gender identity so he could be a superstar on a girls' team; a girl might get scraped by beard stubble .... etc ....

These are all hypothetical outrages. How many actually happened? Well, the best way to find out would be to look at a State which has allowed trans athletes to play with and against players of their gender identity. Then count up all the actual outrages.

California has allowed such competition since 2015. The right extends to all age groups in elementary and secondary schools. The right extends to using bathrooms, locker rooms, and any other facilites. It is part of the California Education Code. In pertinent part, CEC Sec. 225.1(f) states: (f) A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs and activities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records.

Maybe some of the anti-trans posters list all of the horrible things that actually occurred in California as a result of allowing trans-athletes to complete.

Not California but on the youth track there is this in connecticut (IIUC they lost their title ix claim at least in the lower court)

‘No Chance of Winning’: Four female athletes challenge high school transgender policy

(The Center Square) – Four female athletes are locked in a legal battle over transgender athletes that could set major precedent for the same fight playing out in schools around

www.thecentersquare.com

I don't think it's helpful to say it doesn't happen. Even if it hasn't yet, it will. There have been a handful of other incidents. Mostly, they've been in the individual sports . I can see the case for testing in certain individual sports on the high school level, mostly notably track or race swimming. But those are also two of the sports where steroid usage can make the most difference, and at least anecdotally, might have a doping problem so they probably do need to extend doping tests to state competitions if none in place already.

Illinois seems to have a holistic review policy that's a middle ground that's been attack both by the trans activists and the anti-trans block. Has to be approved by the state association, and they note that for most of them it doesn't really make a difference (because they aren't at a level where it makes a difference).

50 Years After Title IX, Transgender Athletes Advocate for Protections in High School and College Sports

“Title Nine at 50: Past, Present, Future” is a three-day event at Northwestern University’s Evanston campus running Thursday, Friday and Saturday. It's free and open to the public and this story will be screened on Friday as part of the symposium.

news.wttw.com

Also here's a piece on a FTM. As a female athlete top of her form. As a male athlete, his performance degenerated, and this is someone who was absolutely the best of the best as a female.

Opinion | I Chose to Compete as My True, Trans Self. I Win Less, but I Live More. (Published 2023)

Living in authenticity makes me a better man.

www.nytimes.com

The New York Marathon now has a non-binary category. Points to a possible third category, especially for individual sports, but if so, be prepared to sacrifice some of your scholarships for that new category. I have yet to hear any of the antitrans people says: "yay, I just wanted an equal playfield...sure we'll give up some scholarships to make that happen".

'I have to go prove that we belong': NYC Marathon sees surge in nonbinary runners

Sixteen nonbinary runners finished the NYC Marathon last year. That number nearly tripled for 2022's race.

19thnews.org