Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
- Start date
I gave you the example of hurtful to whom. Again, either you know what you were doing, deliberately to be provocative (or in your words "be rude") to trans people, or you are disabled and don't know any better. It doesn't have to be directed at me or EOTL (any more than you hypothetically dropping the n word around here would be hurtful to me....it doesn't make it any less of a bigoted statement just because it wasn't personally directed at me). I sincerely hope it's the latter and you are just coping with a disability you don't want to talk about. Too many times now just to be a coincidence or a misspeak.
Happened again
SILVER ELITE
oh sweet barrister - you can never seem to stay on target. I love how you flip flop from trans children to elite athlete then back. Your back must hurt.
My little princess has never won a trophy, played against many a little boy and has gone on to be a strong willed, independent and caring young woman. But thanks again for going after young girls in your rants. hate little girls much? Sounds like you are an expert in providing care for trans children...do tell. I would love to hear all about your supportive gender affirming care experience that you have..
A normal person would ask: why is that my statements are constantly being mistaken for.....
You do notice the humor in that, because most of us are telling you something and a few of you are not willing to listen but instead throw insulting words at everyone else and tell us we don't care about trans kids. We care but we are disagreeing with your about how to help them. We think you're hurting them and cisgender girls plus causing trans kids more problems, and perhaps YOU are the transphobe because you keep asking them to change who they are physically and mentally. They're not girls. They're trans kids. It's ok to be a trans. It's not ok to tell trans MTF that they're girls, because you're lying to them.
Side note - it's also rude to tell people they're short or fat, even when it's true but it doesn't change the truth that they are fat or short.
1. Not everyone is behaving like dad4. Woobie and kicking are two individuals, for example, who I think have taken the contra position but have done so thoughtfully. Sometimes people stumble into bias because they are just ignorant of the facts, which is fine too...I appreciate people who take the moment that say "hmmmm, I still disagree you've given me something to think about".
2. It's fine to think that transitioning is potentially more harmful to kids than not transitioning. But if so you better back it up with facts. The reality is those kids and adults are trapped with the opposite gendered brain in their body (oversimplication, but it's a fact...the biology is in on the fact that the brains resemble those of the desired genders in numerous ways). So you have two possible courses: 1) treat the mind, or 2) treat the body. Neither is a good option because neither of those two courses have been shown to be anywhere near full proof. So you are left to argue with bad options. We also have the history of psychologists trying to convert gay people and the long wreckage that caused as a warning sign. I'm not very well versed with the psychology here so I've stayed out of this argument and have no position.
3. My concern is o.k. you have someone that's transitioned. Now what. You have to do something with them with them in sports. Wishing them away doesn't get the job done, and dumping them in the male category isn't "fair" for those that thump their chest about fairness. So what do you do with them?
4. Yes it's rude to tell people they are short or fat. I'm sure you don't go around posting memes of fat people and saying "look how fat they are" and calling your friends "shortie". If you repeatedly belittle or make fun of fat people, it becomes apparent you may have an issue with fat people and be biased towards them. The latter is what dad4 has done. It's very apparent at this point. As I said, I hope for his sake its because like crush he has a disability (which is why I haven't gone after crush for this), because being an educator he really should know better. He's so blinded by his anger and bias that he can't even see that he made out the very argument we've been making when it comes to mtfs at the youth (as opposed to college and higher) levels: it's about the bow, not the training...they aren't soccer robots.
Transphobia is "a different perspective", that is true. It is one thing to consider ALL of the relevant factors on both sides and then state your opinion that you believe they weigh in favor of one position or the other, but it is transphobic to deny that the reasons supporting trans participation in kiddie soccer are even legitimate factors to be weighed in the first place. Not a single person here who opposes allowing trans children to play kiddie soccer is even willing to recognize that trans children, CIF, ECNL, the NCAA, the USWNT, and even many of Lia Thomas' competitors have a single legitimate basis to support their position on the matter. It's pretty appalling that none of you can muster even a miniscule amount of empathy for their interests in this matter.
It doesn't matter how polite someone is about denying the legitimacy of the societal interests that support allowing trans children to play kiddie soccer with other girls. If you can't admit that legitimate factors support trans participation support participation, if you refuse to admit that very different factors support participation in kiddie soccer that don't apply to Lia Thomas and that the two situations should be evaluated much differently, then, yeah, you're transphobic. Honestly, wasting your time trying to convince me that I am wrong while ignoring one maliciously inappropriate transphobic comment after the next on this site is transphobic.
I concede that you aren't nearly as bad as someone like dad4 who called Brittney Griner a man and who mocks gender pronouns.
I don't think anyone on here, especially a parent wants their kid or any kid to suffer, feel less than, or not feel included. It is an unbelievably nuanced situation, and I agree there are so many potential mental health concerns involved across the board. Wherever it lands, there will be people who will be unhappy with the result. There are so many things to consider and this is the problem...from my perspective you have people saying children as young as three can make a decision for the rest of their life, but these kids don't know better to eat dinner before desert, but they can make a life changing decisions? You have teachers talking about sex in schools that would get them fired for sexual harassment in the work place, or teachers hiding transition plans from parents. Its polarizing. Most people go by their experiences...we have family friends where the dad played in the NFL. His youngest son 10 years ago or whatever it was, was so into Frozen...movie, princesses, etc. He was obsessed...it was tough on the Dad in particular...they talked to some people and the advice was let it play out and support him...after about two years he was into trucks, dirt and wanted to play football. It would not have mattered either way to the parents, they would have supported him. But the kid needed time to figure himself out and he did. Pulling the trigger too early, or supporting change too early with young people is dangerous...give them time to figure out forever decisions. People are not as Phobic as some people think. Forever decisions too early is a HUGE mistake and in my opinion should not happen. too early and without parent involvement and the Gov't should step the F out, let the kids, grow, mature, figure it out, and people and organizations with agendas should back the f off and stop supporting things at the expense of children to support their narritive.
Nobody is trying to convince you of anything...Why can't we disagree without me being a Phobe or something? C'mon....Your ask of empathy is so one sided. I have a lot of empathy for Trans Kids and their families and I would bet my life savings most people here do too. Those same people have legitimate concerns that matter to them that may not matter to you, that's ok and does not make somebody bad or evil. My empathy is void because I don't agree with you? Because I don't share your perspective I am this Phobe, racist, blah, blah, blah....it is some of the most closed minded BS I have ever heard. I'm just really f'ing tired of people trying to cancel people for their opinions and beliefs because they oppose their own. I don't hate Trans Kids, Trans Adults, Trans anything...I also care deeply about Women's Rights as Dad of two Daughters. Why can't I support both and have a different view?
You haven't said anything I materially disagree with. Thoughtful. But that's not what dad4 and perhaps a handful of the others are doing (13 knots is doing his reverse outlaw trolling and crush is just crush). Sure you can argue it isn't healthy for a fat person to be fat. You can try to persuade the overweight person they should lose weight. You can even politely say "hey friend to friend, it's not healthy...you might want to lose a few...I say this because I care and worry about you". But when you repeatedly make little comments that put them down or, in his self-confessed words, are intended to be "rude", something else is going on.
"Cancel culture" is just a term that people use when they're upset about being held accountable for their abysmal behavior. If you want to avoid repercussions for being a horrible person, don't be a horrible person.
I'm not sure how many times I need to say that there is nothing wrong with considering ALL of the relevant factors and deciding that they weigh in favor of one position or another. The problem - including your problem - is that you still can't even admit that the factors that trans children, me, ECNL, CIF, the NCAA, the USWNT, many of Lia Thomas' competitors and others keep identifying to explain why they support trans participation in kiddie sports aren't even legitimate factors to be considered. That is transphobic, pure and simple, no matter how much you claim to pay lip service for having a lot of empathy for trans kids. The reality is you're confusing empathy with being patronizing. If you can't acknowledge that legitimate reasons exist to support allowing trans children playing kiddie soccer, including ECNL, then you're just full of shit and should get used to being called transphobic, because you are. How many times do you think I've challenged you and others to at least recognize that there are legitimate reasons to support trans participation in youth sports? Yet all you can do is pretend I didn't and whine some self-pitying nonsense about getting "cancelled".
Your definition of cancel culture is a hoot. How do you know I have not considered the factors and weighted them differently than you and came to my own conclusions? They are just not yours. I'm very sure you are a smart and educated person. You are also very closed minded. Wishing you the best. Because I disagree with you does not make me phobic.
I know you have not considered the factors and weighted them differently because you still aren't. Honestly, it's pretty pathetic that you're even asking me "how do you know?", when you could just admit that trans girls have their own athletic disadvantages to cis girls in girls soccer, including those I have discussed earlier, and that those are things that should also be considered alongside any purported "physiological advantage" they might have. But you won't, because you're transphobic. To you, it doesn't matter how much or how many trans girls suffer emotionally, it doesn't matter how little support trans girls typically have from their own parents to participate in sports, it doesn't how horrible the abuse must get forcing trans girls to play on a boys team, none of that matters to you at all. You have made it crystal clear that you will never, ever concede anything that requires considering the humanity of trans children.
Does it make you sad when people are held accountable for their behavior?
I will also add that it isn't the fact that you weigh something against something else that matters, but WHAT you are willing to weigh. If you can't appreciate that the inevitable abuse that many trans children will face having to play on boys teams should be part of the equation that determines where best to allow trans girls to play, then, yeah you're transphobic. If you can't appreciate that the emotional disadvantages and the lack of support many face from their own parents are factors that should be considered in determining whether trans children even have actual overall athletic advantages, then yeah, you're transphobic.
Your main complaint seems to be that I refuse to adopt your language. You object to any term which fails to assert that XY individuals are female.
Therefore, if I use any language to remind people that the athletes in question are biologically male, you two start with the insults.
“Male” isn‘t a put down. It is a neutral description of a fact which you are desperately trying to censor.
I specifically said I wouldn't have had a problem with it if your point had been they remain biological males. No one here so far has disputed that you can't turn a biological female into a biological female. That's not what you did. You yourself admitted your intent was to be rude. Again, either you have a disability and can't help yourself (change your avatar to a clownfish for example), or you are doing it deliberately and are a horrible horrible person. It's happened more than once as well, and not just your assertion that biological males are biological males.
I'm now hyper curious as to why you even started the thread. It's clear your a hypertriggered. It would be interesting to know the event that caused it. If it was just reading about Lia in the newspaper, time to put down the news.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
From Feb 9th
Earlier today
Hahaha! Why on earth would you EVER care for EOTL's approval? No one could possibly do more harm to the "cause" they support than EOTL does with his "support". He's an angry, talking point parrot in a frenzied state that renders him incapable of critical thinking - the left's version of the Westboro Baptist Church. If he supports something I say, I check what I said carefully. Of course, even the devil mixes truth with lies.
Earlier today
I enter into evidence, Exhibit A.
Actually "cancel culture" is a tool used by people, often a self-righteous mob, that can't handle, or are offended by, an opposing opinion. Often used in conjunction with cries of the offender being something that ends in "ist" or "phobic".
I started the thread to hear the thoughts of the many intelligent people who are trying to find a way to meet the needs of both the girl athletes and the mtf trans athletes.
There have been several helpful posts, raising issues of the need for all kids to have a place to play, the inherent physical imbalance between men and women, the possible adverse incentive of making rules depend on a medical procedure, the hypocrisy of offering up rec only because our kids are in comp, and so on. The core of a reasonable logical discussion is there.
We also have you and EOTL.
Haha many of those points were raised by me or eotl. again the issue is being caused by your inability to self reflect on everything from calling all trans “obvious”, mansplaining misogyny to me, heterosplaining gayness to me, and your most recent self admitted “rudeness” among others. Again a more normal person would have engaged in some introspection of why they went over the line, particularly someone who is around these kids and an educator. In conjunction with your entire Covid debacle it leaves the explanation that either you must be disabled and don’t understand what you are doing, or you do and are a horrible person. Too many incidents to just be an innocent coincidence. The only ones here with that many incidents are arguably crush or 13 knots.
I can’t really say you got anything wrong here. I do note however the extremist con position is supported by Mr authoritarian himself , which also says something.