Too bad for you that Gorsuch and Roberts have already ruled that federal protections based on "sex" doesn't just protect whiny Karens, but also trans women.
Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
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Too bad for you that Gorsuch and Roberts have already ruled that federal protections based on "sex" doesn't just protect whiny Karens, but also trans women.
Doubtful even with a conservative court...at least not without unintended consequences that spill all over the place (such as a serious gutting of Title IX's male/female balance). If you have an "open" division it directly undermines the proposition that female sports have to be treated equally....they are no longer equal...they are a subcategory akin to a disabled category of the larger "open" division". Unintended consequences. If you don't, then you are on the same footing as disabilities: if you extend accommodations for disabilities, it's hard to see how you don't for the trans, even if it's just under a proposition of separate but equal. Hard to predict, but in the US, barring the acceptance of some sort of rational compromise, or the Rs taking both houses of Congress overcoming the fillibuster and getting the Presidency, I think it comes down to a blue state/red state split. Long term, I think Europe leads the way and where they come out on things.
In any case, Title IX and women's athletics may be about to be turned on their head in the event women's football catches on in the next 3-5 years. If it does (I'm not convinced it will but I saw a demonstration in Sherman Oaks Park a few months and the players really seemed into it), soccer and volleyball in particularly are going to be greatly impacted. If I had a DD that was 5 or 6 right now and looking to direct her to a sport, I'd be looking at this carefully to see how it develops because if it takes off (a big if) it's going to turn everything over on its head.
p.s. universities have been looking to kill the equality principle in Title IX for a while now to free up more money for their football and basketball programs. There's been talk about maybe shifting to a salaried system, the chief stumbling block is Title IX since the salaries do not seem to make economic sense for women's athletics, which are generally more unpopular with the general public. Women's football, if it takes off, has been in part pushed by universities (which want consolidated costs and departments) and the NFL (which wants moms pushing their kids into a new generation of viewers). Why you'd hand SCOTUS a knife that could potentially rework Title IX to the benefit of the university interests, in order to kill this flea, is beyond me....
Your Mom must be so proud…..
Why a serious gutting of the male/female balance? Perhaps it goes from 50/50 to 49/49/2. That's drift, not gutting. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.
The bigger risk is if money sport athletes win the right to be paid a salary. That would definitely mean fewer scholarship opportunities for women athletes. But it would be a fairer system.
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www.injusticeatwork.com
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"Why does Biden want to cancel mothers?" one critic of Biden's budget said of the linguistic change.
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Having different beliefs and opinions is not intolerance. Not respecting, listening, and considering others perspectives is. You obviously have a reading comprehension issue. I have said I am against it in competitive sports where the physiology does matter with Biological Males against Biological Females. In young youth sports where physiology does not matter yet, I don’t have any issue at all. Let them all play.
Biological Males have a advantage over Biological Females in competitive sports…based on their physiology. That is a fact and you choosing not to believe it, does not make it untrue. IF, there was a way to level and equal the playing field and Biological Males did NOT have advantages over Biological Females I would not have a problem with direct competition. As long as the advantage exists I am against it. That does not mean I am anti Trans. I am all for everyone doing what they want unless it infringes on the opportunities of others. Which again, the Lia Thomas situation certainly did. I respect your opinions, beliefs, and perspectives, but do not agree with you.
BTW….How many stickers on your Subaru…I’m taking bets on the over under at 5.5?
I agree the bigger risk is the paid salary but the Title IX argument would be that it's still ancillary to attending school. That's assuming Title IX remains in tact. While the science has been moving in the direction that you cannot balance, legally the opponents have been increasingly painted into a corner.
As ETOL pointed out, the Supreme Court has already ruled for Title VII purposes LGTBQ is a protected category. In addition, several circuits that have ruled on it have additionally ruled gender dysphoria is a disability for which accommodations need to be extended. So it's not as legally simple as just waiving our hands and say dump them into the men's category (which we know they can't compete against....plus there's the ticking time bomb of the FTMs that's been neglected for a while). It's been established they have rights. So, if you have an open division, the division does not necessarily have to be 49/49/2. If women are a subclass, akin to the disabled, unable to compete in the open division, then it blows up the equality principle en total...it could be 56 open/44 women's or 60 open/40 women's....there's no principle it has to be proportionate because of another painting into the corner: the argument was already used that more men played but the courts didn't buy it at the inception of title IX. If there's not an open division, then you have to extend reasonable accommodations to the extent practical. You can't just ignore it because it's been established already they have legal rights, and neither the FTMs or MTFs can compete in a cis male division. The argument then becomes what those accommodations look like. Hypothetically, for example, in a race it could be a "head start" of so many minutes if you keep them in the men's division on track....so much for the meritocracy....another hypothetical is separate but equal....another is it doesn't make a difference in the team sports. What that accommodation looks like (from fig leaf to one that has teeth) in part depends on the court composition, but there will be something. An "open" division, by contrast, would be disastrous for women's sports and completely gut the equity principle in title IX.
Did you think that up all by yourself? It must be so hard losing sleep that ECNL, CIF, the NCAA, and also Neil Gorsuch, John Roberts, Sonia Sotomayor, Elena Kagan and Ketanji Brown Jackson (aka a majority of SCOTUS) agree with me.
thirteenknots
SILVER ELITE
Just because you cite EVIL doesn't make it Fair/True.
MTF in Women's sports is CHEATING.
Does not make it the best course of action…Roe v. Wade by the Supreme Court recently, do you agree with that? All the Vaccine lies told by the government and CDC, WHO, NHS…c’mon citing Federal Govt Policy makers and judges as the source of “truth” is kinda funny. Judges write OPINIONS based on the laws and they change….often. I know I can find 5 or 6 people that agree with me.
Public Trust in Government: 1958-2023
Public trust in government remains low, as it has for much of the 21st century. Only two-in-ten Americans say they trust the government in Washington to do what is right “just about always” (2%) or “most of the time” (19%).
www.pewresearch.org
Believe me…there are not many people losing sleep on this. Everyone has an opinion. Like for example you like Subaru’s and I more than likely like a Truck… I am enjoying the dialogue, and Grace T and Dad4 got a little testy for a bit, and seemed to have had a beer and made up and there are some interesting perspectives coming out of it. That’s cool and there are some things I have not considered or thought about.
Lighten up Francis, it’s gonna be ok.
You have made a number of the same incorrect assumptions that all transphobes make.
1. "I am against it in competitive sports where the physiology does matter". - You ignore the real issues, which are: (1) the extent to which physiology matters more than human decency; and (2) the extent to which ALL of the relevant factors and not just the ones you pick and choose weigh against each other. You ignore that there is a lot more to a child's soccer prowess than physiology. You completely ignore the emotional and other factors where trans children are placed at a huge disadvantage. You also ignore that no trans girl in history has even ever been the best player on their own team. The fact that you won't even attempt to weigh the disadvantages that a trans child has with the purported "advantages" they have physiologically is also very telling. Of course you won't, because like all other transphobes, you can't even acknowledge the humanity of trans children. It is crazy that you see being trans as all "advantages", but the reality is that is a transphobic pathetic piece of shit point of view. If you were serious about any of this, you would acknowledge there are also massive disadvantages for a trans child playing sports, but you won't, because you know the end result of actually weighing all the relevant factors is that me, ECNL, CIF, the NCAA and a majority of the even the most conservative freakin' US Supreme Court since slavery was legal agrees with me.
2. "You choosing not to believe it, does not make it untrue." - This is a fake bs argument that you and your friends keep making, and must keep making, to rationalize that actual fact that you are choosing not to believe any of the important disadvantages that trans children face that offset any physiological advantages. I have said here, for example, at least 10x that I was not a fan of the NCAA's swim rules and I have no problem with changing the rules based on what happened with Ms. Thomas. The reality here is that I actually do weigh all the factors, and my position is actually pretty middle of the road. The only ones here who choose not to believe that any justifications on the other side should even be considered come from the transphobic side that includes you.
3. "That does not mean I am anti Trans." - The fact that you refuse to weigh any of the disadvantages that trans children face in sports, the fact that you can only perceive a purported physical advantage despite no evidence whatsoever that any trans girl has ever been even the best player on her own team, rather definitively shows that you are anti-trans. The fact that you completely ignore that awful transphobic commentary by your compadres without any criticism whatsoever, but instead go after someone who (as I stated earlier) agrees with ECNL, CIF, the NCAA and a majority of the US Supreme Court, is also pretty anti-trans.
4. Trans participation "infringes on the opportunities of others." That is ridiculous with respect to kiddie or even NCAA soccer. You can't point to a single instance in which the result of a single game was ever changed because a trans girl participated in comp soccer. You can't point to a single instance in which a biological girl lost out on a scholarship or a college offer because of a trans girl, because it has never happened. You can only claim that a trans girl playing in a game must have meant that a non-trans girl lost some minutes. But that also ignores that she lost minutes because of 10x as many cis girls on her team.
I agreed with that decision100%
Baby crush just wanted a chance at life and so do all the other babies. Carry on Woobie. Great discussions btw and it's what makes America great, the gr8t debates in the squares and pubs.....
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Does not make it the best course of action…Roe v. Wade by the Supreme Court recently, do you agree with that? All the Vaccine lies told by the government and CDC, WHO, NHS…c’mon citing Federal Govt Policy makers and judges as the source of “truth” is kinda funny. Judges write OPINIONS based on the laws and they change….often. I know I can find 5 or 6 people that agree with me.
Public Trust in Government: 1958-2023
Public trust in government remains low, as it has for much of the 21st century. Only two-in-ten Americans say they trust the government in Washington to do what is right “just about always” (2%) or “most of the time” (19%).
Believe me…there are not many people losing sleep on this. Everyone has an opinion. Like for example you like Subaru’s and I more than likely like a Truck… I am enjoying the dialogue, and Grace T and Dad4 got a little testy for a bit, and seemed to have had a beer and made up and there are some interesting perspectives coming out of it. That’s cool and there are some things I have not considered or thought about.
Lighten up Francis, it’s gonna be ok.
Abortions and vaccines have nothing to do with any of this. The reality is that the vast majority of court decisions are the right ones by any objective standard, and that was one of them. How exactly do you rationalize your accusation that SCOTUS reached the wrong result in a decision when you don't even know what the case was, let alone what was said in the opinion? You're just a whiny Karen who complains every time you don't get the result you want in a court decision, but all you have to say is "I don't like the result, so therefore it must be wrong." The mere fact that you are lamenting a US Supreme Court result that supports transgender rights without knowing a single freakin' thing about it is pretty definitive proof that you are transphobic.
You clearly have no interest in a meaningful debate about any of this.
I'd just warn be careful what you wish for. If we wind up separate but equal, then trans athletes will be entitled to equivalent scholarship money taken from both genders (but which if women's football takes off will be much more severe on the girls) where right now it's almost (is?) impossible for them to get any. If we wind up with an open division, the principle of equality between mens and women's sports will be shattered because women will become a lesser subcategory of the open one, akin to disability. If we wind up in accommodations in men's sports, the vaunted meritocracy will go by the wayside (if you are going to go the golf route and start handicapping sports). You gotta put them somewhere. I don't see any scenario (short of the "open" division, since as dad4 pointed out, even FINA has rejected inclusion in a men's division) where they get dumped with the cis men and it's just too bad so sad. And I wouldn't be surprised if the shocker comes from a FTM as opposed to MTF, which as you pointed out, have been long neglected. Kinda like winning the battle, but losing the war, and shooting yourself in the foot in the process.Does not make it the best course of action…Roe v. Wade by the Supreme Court recently, do you agree with that? All the Vaccine lies told by the government and CDC, WHO, NHS…c’mon citing Federal Govt Policy makers and judges as the source of “truth” is kinda funny. Judges write OPINIONS based on the laws and they change….often. I know I can find 5 or 6 people that agree with me.
Public Trust in Government: 1958-2023
Public trust in government remains low, as it has for much of the 21st century. Only two-in-ten Americans say they trust the government in Washington to do what is right “just about always” (2%) or “most of the time” (19%).
Believe me…there are not many people losing sleep on this. Everyone has an opinion. Like for example you like Subaru’s and I more than likely like a Truck… I am enjoying the dialogue, and Grace T and Dad4 got a little testy for a bit, and seemed to have had a beer and made up and there are some interesting perspectives coming out of it. That’s cool and there are some things I have not considered or thought about.
Lighten up Francis, it’s gonna be ok.
You start with the name calling….calling me a trans phobe and others…ok, it is what it is…why? I’m not. I’m not scared of or hate people. What have I said negative about a trans person here? You have have called me names and I joked about your Subaru. That’s all good. Because I disagree with you, communicate it, does make my speech violent, phobic, discriminatory or anything like that. I’m allowed opinions just like you.
Yes, Lia Thomas did infringe on others. She won a National Championship and Emma Wyent finished second 1.75 seconds behind. It also forced the 3rd Place Biological Women out of the Medal. Unless I am wrong, the NCAA has not made this right with Medals for these young Women. Was this because of Lia Thomas’ Biological Male Physiological advantage that she won? You bet. 100%. That young lady worked most of her life to win a championship. It was stolen from her. That’s my issue….not kiddie, bow, ice cream, orange slice, gummi bear, or goldfish little kid sports.
This kid got f’d…that is not fair, and that’s my point…do you think this is right or fair? I don’t want anything that creates these types of situations.
If your argument is to let it go until something bad happens and then we will fix it…like in swimming, I just don’t agree. Make it right at the start. Until it is fair and equal from the start I will not support it and Biological Men in Biological Women’s Competitive Sports is not a fair endeavor.
Any studies on what the kids or the actual participants think? Anybody ask Emma Wyent how she feels?
Does not make it the best course of action…Roe v. Wade by the Supreme Court recently, do you agree with that? All the Vaccine lies told by the government and CDC, WHO, NHS…c’mon citing Federal Govt Policy makers and judges as the source of “truth” is kinda funny. Judges write OPINIONS based on the laws and they change….often. I know I can find 5 or 6 people that agree with me.
Public Trust in Government: 1958-2023
Public trust in government remains low, as it has for much of the 21st century. Only two-in-ten Americans say they trust the government in Washington to do what is right “just about always” (2%) or “most of the time” (19%).
Believe me…there are not many people losing sleep on this. Everyone has an opinion. Like for example you like Subaru’s and I more than likely like a Truck… I am enjoying the dialogue, and Grace T and Dad4 got a little testy for a bit, and seemed to have had a beer and made up and there are some interesting perspectives coming out of it. That’s cool and there are some things I have not considered or thought about.
Lighten up Francis, it’s gonna be ok.
It's not surprising that people don't trust government. You, for example, have made it very clear that if you don't like the ultimate result, you don't care one bit about the reasoning or legitimacy of a court ruling. Instead, you just proclaim that the government entity responsible for the law or opinion you don't like must be wrong, without any clue at all about what the law or opinion actually says or its reasoning. The problem with this distrust of government has nothing to do with the government, and everything to do with people like you. You want all policies and law to be a la carte and to your liking, and anything that isn't must be a "conspiracy" by a "corrupt" government.
You're a clueless clown.
Name calling, name calling….I’m not complaining about anything, I have a different opinion than you. Why does that make you so angry? You are very angry. I’m not angry at you. I just don’t agree with you. I would prefer Whiny Ken because I am a Biological Male and Identify as one. You misgendered me and it hurts a bit. Good luck. Meditate, and work on the anger. BTW…what is the real sticker count?
Your ask is impossible right now. There isn't enough data. It's only been in the last 10 years (a chunk of that disrupted by COVID) that it's come to light the long standing accommodations (which date to the 80s and 90s) might not be balanced in all sports.
Think of the data points we need to be sure: there are so few transgendered athletes and you have to analyze it for each accommodation (x dates from hormones, x dates from testosterone blockers, x date from surgery) for each sport. Then there are the philosophical questions: if Lebron for example, were to become transgendered, given how dominant he is in male sports, no doubt he'll have to be dominant as well in female sports....so can a transgendered athlete ever be the "best"....theoretically it should match the bell distribution for the female population but there simply aren't enough data points to establish that.
Our best and least disruptive hope is that we can balance things. Because dumping them into the cis male category isn't "fair" either (they can't compete there against men actively on performance enhancing drugs of testosterone) and as a result is probably legally questionable. It leaves you with the hard choices FINA is faced with: an open division (that will relegate women's sports to a permanently lesser and unequal division), a trans division (which must be funded and which is probably impossible for team sports), dumping them into the men but with the men engaged in a handicap (which destroys the meritocracy).
It's the dilemma of no good choices, but dad4 notwithstanding, dump them all (regardless of which direction they are moving) into the men is probably not viable, morally fair, or legal.