Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[Grace T.]

How do you do a sliding scale for eligibility?

Sounds more like an attempt to have your cake and eat it, too. You want to include transgirls, but you want to avoid a Lia Thomas situation, and you have no idea how to draw a line between the two.

I know of two proposed eligibility standards. One is "Biological girls not on PED." The other is "anyone who says they are a girl."

NWSL uses a third standard. Neither you nor I find it appropriate for a youth league, because it requires medical treatment.

Do you have a specific standard you think is reasonable? Or just a nice sounding phrase that means one thing to you and a different thing to someone else?

Oh that's not true. There's a bunch of other standards.

Youth league= anyone living in the other gender. That doesn't require medical treatment but it does require an extensive period of the youth living in the opposite gender to make absolutely certain they are sure when they are ready (and again, I said there may be very rare instances were a youth does need to be transitioned, but I think that standard needs to be very very very incredibly high). Here's another= birth certificate change.

For the ones that matter (for the ones where there is PED tests), I think it has to be set sport by sport, and level by level. Here's a question for you: if in a particular sport it can be shown that performance of a MTF can be reduced (even if it's x number of years post surgery) so that the bell curve distribution is not that far different from a cis female, you o.k. with MTF participating in the female division? Again, assuming arguendo, the science showed it was possible?

Dangerous question BTW. Your failure to answer or ducking it might reveal more than you want to reveal, or prove once and for all you are an honest broker on the issue. Up to the dare? Again, not debating the science of whether it's even possible (I concede it might not be for some sports), since we know they are in the middle of that research right now.

 

[SurFutbol]

How do you do a sliding scale for eligibility?

Sounds more like an attempt to have your cake and eat it, too. You want to include transgirls, but you want to avoid a Lia Thomas situation, and you have no idea how to draw a line between the two.

I know of two proposed eligibility standards. One is "Biological girls not on PED." The other is "anyone who says they are a girl."

NWSL uses a third standard. Neither you nor I find it appropriate for a youth league, because it requires medical treatment.

Do you have a specific standard you think is reasonable? Or just a nice sounding phrase that means one thing to you and a different thing to someone else?

Yeah, use the specific standard that already exists. 1. stop losing your mind about trans children in kiddie sports and accept that the possibility that your daughter might win a trophy is a stupid reason to ban trans children; 2. impose more restrictive requirements at the NCAA level where winning and losing actually starts to have some importance, but not enough to completely ban trans participants; 3. impose even greater restrictions at the professional level, which serve a very different purpose than kiddie sports. Maybe also stop ignoring the actual standards that exist and making up fake ones that don't to feed your self-pity.

It's really quite simple when you don't hate trans children and are looking for solutions that address everyone's interests, instead of excuses to rationalize your hatred of trans people without coming right out and admitting it.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Nice try, but I was clearly mocking you and Harry Potter fans, not transgenders.

Dizzy was in too much of a tizzy to make that connection. At least Dizzy is consistent.

 

[dad4]

Oh that's not true. There's a bunch of other standards.

Youth league= anyone living in the other gender. That doesn't require medical treatment but it does require an extensive period of the youth living in the opposite gender to make absolutely certain they are sure when they are ready (and again, I said there may be very rare instances were a youth does need to be transitioned, but I think that standard needs to be very very very incredibly high). Here's another= birth certificate change.

For the ones that matter (for the ones where there is PED tests), I think it has to be set sport by sport, and level by level. Here's a question for you: if in a particular sport it can be shown that performance of a MTF can be reduced (even if it's x number of years post surgery) so that the bell curve distribution is not that far different from a cis female, you o.k. with MTF participating in the female division? Again, assuming arguendo, the science showed it was possible?

Dangerous question BTW. Your failure to answer or ducking it might reveal more than you want to reveal, or prove once and for all you are an honest broker on the issue. Up to the dare? Again, not debating the science of whether it's even possible (I concede it might not be for some sports), since we know they are in the middle of that research right now.

So your proposed standard is social transition? (either as measured by birth certificate or by sustained social interaction.)

Birth cert filing is a standard, in that it is verifiable. Much better than “sliding scale”.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t even pretend to deal with the unfair advantage question. There is no reason to assume that the athletic distribution among socially transitioned youth is going to differ at all from the athletic distribution of their birth gender.

As to your youth sports MTF technology what if, both of us have already ruled it out on ethical grounds. You don’t tell some kid that they can compete on a girls team, but only if they agree to a medical procedure. That’s just wrong.

For adults, I don’t have a strong opinion. I do not object to a weakened male competing against females, assuming the procedure makes it a fair contest. The problem is that most people are past their prime for sports by the time the brain matures. There may not be an age where someone is old enough to understand the procedure but young enough to be good at the sport.

 

[Grace T.]

So your proposed standard is social transition? (either as measured by birth certificate or by sustained social interaction.)

Birth cert filing is a standard, in that it is verifiable. Much better than “sliding scale”.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t even pretend to deal with the unfair advantage question. There is no reason to assume that the athletic distribution among socially transitioned youth is going to differ at all from the athletic distribution of their birth gender.

As to your youth sports MTF technology what if, both of us have already ruled it out on ethical grounds. You don’t tell some kid that they can compete on a girls team, but only if they agree to a medical procedure. That’s just wrong.

For adults, I don’t have a strong opinion. I do not object to a weakened male competing against females, assuming the procedure makes it a fair contest. The problem is that most people are past their prime for sports by the time the brain matures. There may not be an age where someone is old enough to understand the procedure but young enough to be good at the sport.

Well, as we've covered already a.n.: 1. I don't think there should be any rope at the youth level but if you insist on a velvet rope either social transition or birthcertificate would be acceptable (in California, the birth certificate standard is declaration but at least it requires that someone be sure enough to actually go through the bother to change it.....which used to be pretty paper intensive but I haven't done one in a long long time), 2. again in the youth sports, I don't care about unfair advantage because we don't care about the unfair advantage of outright cheaters...talk to me again if we start to drug screen youth sports (the only place in youth soccer in the US I'm aware that might do it is some of the MLS academies and national team camps), 3. I haven't ruled out medical intervention on youth....I just think that the standard needs to be mindnumbling high, and 4. o.k. fair position among adults, but then we are just arguing about the year. 21 is the recognized maximum age of consent in the US....18 for pretty much everything else....I'd be o.k. with you raising the consent age for 21 but then you'd have to do it for everything else including without limitation firearms, alcohol, military service, abortions, tobacco, marijuana, marriage, sex, and voting. I don't think there's a realistic prospect of rolling back voting rights and if they are old enough to vote in the socialist utopia or the fascist paradise, they are certainly old enough to make medical decisions for themselves (and we should lower the drinking age, which is only there because of the uncomfortable concern we have with drunk driving and our unwillingness to restrict driving before alcohol). Realistically, we might need a hybrid model for 18-21 year olds that give parents limited veto or information rights over what their young adults this age can do, but the abortion activists would go nuts with that. If you are old enough to decide on an abortion, you are old enough to decide your trans surgery.

 

[SurFutbol]

So your proposed standard is social transition? (either as measured by birth certificate or by sustained social interaction.)

Birth cert filing is a standard, in that it is verifiable. Much better than “sliding scale”.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t even pretend to deal with the unfair advantage question. There is no reason to assume that the athletic distribution among socially transitioned youth is going to differ at all from the athletic distribution of their birth gender.

As to your youth sports MTF technology what if, both of us have already ruled it out on ethical grounds. You don’t tell some kid that they can compete on a girls team, but only if they agree to a medical procedure. That’s just wrong.

For adults, I don’t have a strong opinion. I do not object to a weakened male competing against females, assuming the procedure makes it a fair contest. The problem is that most people are past their prime for sports by the time the brain matures. There may not be an age where someone is old enough to understand the procedure but young enough to be good at the sport.

Here you are again claiming that allowing that trans children participate in sports is "unfair" because of your irrational fear that it might impact your daughter winning a trophy in a kiddie game. I can tell you from experience that you have nothing to worry about. My daughter has boxes of trophies and medals despite having to play against scary trans girls. Trophies are only a problem when your daughter sucks at soccer.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Youth league= anyone living in the other gender.

I am having difficulty understanding what "living in the other gender" means other than gender by proclamation. If it's not gender by proclamation, how is living in the other gender defined, and, who will enforce it and how will it be enforced?

 

[Grace T.]

I am having difficulty understanding what "living in the other gender" means other than gender by proclamation. If it's not gender by proclamation, how is living in the other gender defined, and, who will enforce it and how will it be enforced?

Velvet rope in answer to dad4's argument well there's a throw away line in the code of conducts (which most leagues don't require signature on or enforce) prohibiting illegal ped and other narcotics. There could be a line where the individual attests they are living full time as the other gender (e.g. you've picked a girl's name and are being referred to that and presenting as a girl, if the concern is the sort of red herring that you are going to get a south park strong woman situation).

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Velvet rope in answer to dad4's argument well there's a throw away line in the code of conducts (which most leagues don't require signature on or enforce) prohibiting illegal ped and other narcotics. There could be a line where the individual attests they are living full time as the other gender (e.g. you've picked a girl's name and are being referred to that and presenting as a girl, if the concern is the sort of red herring that you are going to get a south park strong woman situation).

Ok, but "presenting as a girl" sounds sexist - not Don Lemon level - but still sexist.

Here is a simple solution. Eliminate differentiating sex in youth sports. Players play at a level based on their capabilities. Also, everyone has to change their name to Pat. Ok, ok - I'm only kidding about that last part.

 

[Grace T.]

Ok, but "presenting as a girl" sounds sexist - not Don Lemon level - but still sexist.

Here is a simple solution. Eliminate differentiating sex in youth sports. Players play at a level based on their capabilities. Also, everyone has to change their name to Pat. Ok, ok - I'm only kidding about that last part.

o.k. two things in response. The entire trans thing is kind of sexist in some ways. If it really is biological and there are differences in the male and female brain, and the desire is to present as the opposite gender, then it's essentially really wedded to the concept that there are two biological sexes and those two sexes tend to present differently (girls tend to play with dolls, boys with trucks). Gender cannot be a construct or spectrum as the radicals on the left of this issue have been claiming (which also BTW has undermined traditional feminist ideology). If the radical left is correct, and gender is just a spectrum, then dividing people into two competing genders will never make sense (in which case what are the trans people complaining about...they are just on a spectrum somewhere so no need to really surgically transition). We really do have to sort individuals to each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs.

Second if fairness is the sole guiding principle behind youth athletics, we really would differentiate based on not only capabilities but also by height, weight and maturity (which are the prime differentiators at the youth level). There is nothing fair about having the early developed, 6 foot 12 year old competing against my son's friend whose back was broken when he was little and now is uncommonly short but is pound for pound a better soccer player than the 6 foot 12 year old that just muscles his way through the game. We do, after all, differentiate in boxing, wrestling and martial arts by weight classifications. There are numerous problems with this, however: 1. fairness is not the only guidepost but also participation (hence the women's division, and hence why some people argue trans people need to be accommodated somehow in order to be able to participate, rather than just thrown in the men's division where they can't), 2. the other guiding principle we have is ease of administration (can you imagine the nightmare of sorting kids that are growing into respective groups...teams would never hold together and each tryout season would be a mess) and simplicity, 3. there would be mass objections when their little Johnny or Mary precocious 12 year old winds up being assigned to play with the 14 year olds and goes from superstar to merely above average, and 4. there would still be some unfairness in the process, as like in boxing, the main event people care about is the highest levels: the heavyweight champions of the world, though not necessarily exclusively (sports is, in some ways about being the best of the best and the women's division only makes sense from a participatory rationale otherwise we'd be living in Starship Troopers)

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Ok, but "presenting as a girl" sounds sexist - not Don Lemon level - but still sexist.

Here is a simple solution. Eliminate differentiating sex in youth sports. Players play at a level based on their capabilities. Also, everyone has to change their name to Pat. Ok, ok - I'm only kidding about that last part.

Eliminating the gender distinction in youth sports will increase the competition level for the top girls and create more opportunities for locally competitive soccer - since they'd get to play with boys younger humans born with a penis. I support this for the development aspect and for those children who are behind in their gender identity development and didn't know they were transgender in the womb. They would have no pressure from sports competitions to figure it out before undertaking irreversible actions.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

o.k. two things in response. The entire trans thing is kind of sexist in some ways. If it really is biological and there are differences in the male and female brain, and the desire is to present as the opposite gender, then it's essentially really wedded to the concept that there are two biological sexes and those two sexes tend to present differently (girls tend to play with dolls, boys with trucks). Gender cannot be a construct or spectrum as the radicals on the left of this issue have been claiming (which also BTW has undermined traditional feminist ideology). If the radical left is correct, and gender is just a spectrum, then dividing people into two competing genders will never make sense (in which case what are the trans people complaining about...they are just on a spectrum somewhere so no need to really surgically transition). We really do have to sort individuals to each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs.

Yes, yes, and yes.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Second if fairness is the sole guiding principle behind youth athletics, we really would differentiate based on not only capabilities but also by height, weight and maturity (which are the prime differentiators at the youth level). There is nothing fair about having the early developed, 6 foot 12 year old competing against my son's friend whose back was broken when he was little and now is uncommonly short but is pound for pound a better soccer player than the 6 foot 12 year old that just muscles his way through the game. We do, after all, differentiate in boxing, wrestling and martial arts by weight classifications. There are numerous problems with this, however: 1. fairness is not the only guidepost but also participation (hence the women's division, and hence why some people argue trans people need to be accommodated somehow in order to be able to participate, rather than just thrown in the men's division where they can't), 2. the other guiding principle we have is ease of administration (can you imagine the nightmare of sorting kids that are growing into respective groups...teams would never hold together and each tryout season would be a mess) and simplicity, 3. there would be mass objections when their little Johnny or Mary precocious 12 year old winds up being assigned to play with the 14 year olds and goes from superstar to merely above average, and 4. there would still be some unfairness in the process, as like in boxing, the main event people care about is the highest levels: the heavyweight champions of the world, though not necessarily exclusively (sports is, in some ways about being the best of the best and the women's division only makes sense from a participatory rationale otherwise we'd be living in Starship Troopers)

I can't argue with anything here, either. I do think it makes sense to have the top-level girls play with boys - as I mention in my post above. I agree that we should make some accommodations for size as it relates to safety concerns.

Starship Troopers was ahead of its time.

 

[crush]

I can't argue with anything here, either. I do think it makes sense to have the top-level girls play with boys - as I mention in my post above. I agree that we should make some accommodations for size as it relates to safety concerns.

Starship Troopers was ahead of its time.

 

[crush]

Handball......

 

[crush]

 

[crush]

I want to say I am very impressed with the girls trying to get in the way of these dudes and tackling them head on. I would sit out 100%. It's already here in our sports but it's hidden in plain site. If this is what US Soccer wants to support, go for it. The Grooming Centers (Training Centers) tried to lurer my child back in 2017. The GDA was the United States Grooming Development Academy for US Soccer. I'm still SMFH what they force on our top youth female players just to be able to participate. You must support _________. You also must support___________ or else and you better STFU. Once you obey, they will force your child to take _________+_________ until their fully compliant. I'm sorry to the dad's WHO think I always insert myself into the posts. 11 years of watching this circus gives me experience unlike too many here. I hope for fair play for all girls born as girls.

 

[dad4]

Eliminating the gender distinction in youth sports will increase the competition level for the top girls and create more opportunities for locally competitive soccer - since they'd get to play with boys younger humans born with a penis. I support this for the development aspect and for those children who are behind in their gender identity development and didn't know they were transgender in the womb. They would have no pressure from sports competitions to figure it out before undertaking irreversible actions.

What you're describing is eliminating girls leagues.

That would mean good local development opportunities for any high talent girls who stay.

It would also mean far fewer girls in sports in general. Most would look around, decide they didn't fit in, and leave.

 

[Grace T.]

What you're describing is eliminating girls leagues.

That would mean good local development opportunities for any high talent girls who stay.

It would also mean far fewer girls in sports in general. Most would look around, decide they didn't fit in, and leave.

Not really. If you are purely like to like, height/weight/development, when he was 12, my son's friend's categorization probably would have had some 14-15 year old girls in it. Now, it probably has some 18 year old girls in it. Most girl's though would be really far down the totem poll of development ranks once the teenage years kick in.

But again, sports really isn't all about fairness and having like to like compete against each other. It's also about participation. Which completely blows apart your argument since you have to therefore ensure the trans also have a place to participate (which isn't necessarily the cis men's division, as we've already established).

Here's a story for you. My son did a winter GK over this last Christmas holiday. The first 3 days he was assigned to a group consisting of mostly older boys in early highschool, a few of them MLS academy keepers, and the two girls in the group were seniors/juniors in high school. He was over the moon and loved the competition even though he was on the weaker side of the keepers. The 4th day the MLS academy keepers had to travel for MLS responsibilities of the weekend and so weren't at the camp. Several girls his age or 1 year above got promoted to the group. He hated that 4th day and thought it was a bit of a waste. Was even yelling at them to give better service even though these girls were supposedly "elite" keepers playing at the highest level. Should we at the teen years ban even elite girl goalkeepers from elite goalkeeping camps even though by age 14 they can't even compete with flight 2 male goalkeepers (one of which was in the group and was actually stronger than all the remaining girls who outranked him) or is it about training and participation there? I note there are several goalkeeper coaches around town which do not at the teen years mix the girls in with the boys for this very reason, and I note there are even a few which discouraged girls from even attending elite session no matter their rank or age.

 

[dad4]

Not really. If you are purely like to like, height/weight/development, when he was 12, my son's friend's categorization probably would have had some 14-15 year old girls in it. Now, it probably has some 18 year old girls in it. Most girl's though would be really far down the totem poll of development ranks once the teenage years kick in.

But again, sports really isn't all about fairness and having like to like compete against each other. It's also about participation. Which completely blows apart your argument since you have to therefore ensure the trans also have a place to participate (which isn't necessarily the cis men's division, as we've already established).

Here's a story for you. My son did a winter GK over this last Christmas holiday. The first 3 days he was assigned to a group consisting of mostly older boys in early highschool, a few of them MLS academy keepers, and the two girls in the group were seniors/juniors in high school. He was over the moon and loved the competition even though he was on the weaker side of the keepers. The 4th day the MLS academy keepers had to travel for MLS responsibilities of the weekend and so weren't at the camp. Several girls his age or 1 year above got promoted to the group. He hated that 4th day and thought it was a bit of a waste. Was even yelling at them to give better service even though these girls were supposedly "elite" keepers playing at the highest level. Should we at the teen years ban even elite girl goalkeepers from elite goalkeeping camps even though by age 14 they can't even compete with flight 2 male goalkeepers (one of which was in the group and was actually stronger than all the remaining girls who outranked him) or is it about training and participation there? I note there are several goalkeeper coaches around town which do not at the teen years mix the girls in with the boys for this very reason, and I note there are even a few which discouraged girls from even attending elite session no matter their rank or age.

Look at your wrists. They are slimmer than a man's wrists.

Find a mirror. Look at your neck. It is thinner than a man's neck.

You don't put girls as keeper in a U17 boy's game because they would break bones.

That is true, even if the broken bones belong to someone who really, truly believes they are a boy. Gender identity doesn't override physics.

 

[Grace T.]

Look at your wrists. They are slimmer than a man's wrists.

Find a mirror. Look at your neck. It is thinner than a man's neck.

You don't put girls as keeper in a U17 boy's game because they would break bones.

That is true, even if the broken bones belong to someone who really, truly believes they are a boy. Gender identity doesn't override physics.

Yeah but you could but the U19 girls in with the U15 boys hypothetically.

In any case, the scenario I outlined for you isn't about the game. It's about training.