If you want to make your sport appealing to girls, it's not about the training, either. It's about the matching hair bows.
That's why a unisex league would lose most female athletes. You're optimizing for a world of soccer robots. These are kids.
Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
- Start date
That's why a unisex league would lose most female athletes. You're optimizing for a world of soccer robots. These are kids.
Don’t you hear yourself? You JUST MADE THE ARGUMENT FOR FTM participation at the youth level where we don’t really care about the level playing field. It’s about the matching hair bow, not even about the training. The rest doesn’t matter since they are just kids. Not soccer robots. The argument you’ve just made for all these umpteen pages basically has just crumbled to this. Ladies and gentlemen (and yes I do totally mean this ironically) of the jerky, I respectfully submit my case.
Where do you find a league full of players who don’t care about a level playing field?
That group does not exist. Even AYSO cares immensely about creating a level playing field.
At most, you have people who don’t care about someone else’s level playing field.
We went through this already. On the most basic level they don’t go after the cheaters using basically the same substances the trans going in both directions are on. So the trans are punished for being on the substance but the cheaters are not.
additionally with youth soccer in particular: the restrictions on ages are imperfect at a time a year age gap makes a huge difference, there are no height weight and development categories where it can make a huge difference with the resulting laughably stupid result of the 6 foot twelve year old playing against my kids friend with the broken back, there’s cheating on the birth certificates, assignment is not based purely on merit, referee training is imperfect and sometimes of low quality, clubs are dispersed so large geography’s have an advantage over smaller ones, coaches are encouraged to take short cuts which lead to short term thinking over development and developmentally focused teams are punished, there’s no exceptions drawn for physical and mental handicaps, and building winning teams is more often about recruitment than training which gives clubs with access to the top leagues a leg up.
From the top to the bottom of the whole stinking edifice of youth soccer, the playing field is most certainly not level. Indeed the boards are full of complaints about how it is not a level playing field. But that ok because of your own words: on the youth level, it’s about the bow, not building soccer robots. Your attempts to William Jennings Bryant a closing argument notwithstanding. “If it’s good enough for Brady then it’s good enough for me”
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There is a big difference between supporting peoples belief in who they want to be and how they want live their lives, and who they feel and believe they are, versus creating “non-equitable” competitions in sport. This does make anybody transphobic. I completely support being who you are and how you identify, but it should not at the expense of others.
1. Allowing biological males, suppressed hormones or not, to compete against biological women is unfair to woman. There is absolutely an advantage to the biological male. I really do not see how this even debatable. It’s why they have had Men’s and Women’s categories in the first place. Just look at the Thomas swimming results. It’s not a mystery. Look at MMA when a trans woman is literally killing a biological woman in the fight. The underlying biology and genetics matter. To say it does not matter in athletic competition is dishonest.
2. For individual sports, like swimming, track, golf, sports where you compete against a clock, or by yourself, I don’t see a problem with trans athletes participating where they identify. Scores, times, etc. can be gathered at each event/meet and aggregated across other leagues/events in the state/county/country creating their own equitable participation class. This would be done because there are usually not enough trans athletes at one event to create a full division, heat, etc. This is done in many competitions and sports utilizing age, ability, weight, etc. This is not transphobic, this is creating equitable competition environments for everyone participating.
3. For Girls/Women’s Team sports, I am at a loss. I don’t know how you make the competition equitable. The Biological Male has a distinct physical advantage. Imagine a Striker in Soccer, or a Center in Basketball, etc. Boys u15 teams are beating Women’s National Teams in friendly’s. Why? Size, strength, speed, the underlying genetics….????
4. Has anyone noticed that the conversation is always Trans Women (biological males) participating in Biological Women’s Sport’s? It’s never Trans Men (biological women) participating in Men’s Sports….I have never seen this, and if somebody has please enlighten or educate me.
I’m all for Trans Athletes having the opportunity to participate in sports, compete, etc. but it should not be at the expense of Biological Women and their opportunities in sport. In general, in nature Biological Males and Biological Females are typically not equal in size, strength, bone density, etc., etc. It is not Phobic anything, it’s fact. Having a size, strength, speed advantage makes a difference. It’s why when young women play HS Football they most always kick, they are not playing WR, RB, or DB, or Linebacker. Why?
Schools around the country, at LAX, are installing urinals in Women’s restrooms…Biological Men are transferring to Women’s Prisons because they “identify” as a woman. Female inmates getting pregnant…I have not heard of a Biological Woman “identifying” as a man to go to a Male Prison. Why is that?
I’m sorry, but it looks to me that Biological Women, who identify as Women, are the ones that are carrying the biggest burden in this whole debate/issue and are being asked to sacrifice and give the most. It’s certainly not Men.
Asking for equity in competition is not Phobic anything.
1. It is if you don’t care about the level playing field elsewhere. In the youth division we don’t test for the performance enhancing drugs of which testosterone is the biggest one, is up to ten percent of elite youth male athletes, and is the exact substance the trans going in each direction are on. Why? Because on the youth level with the exception of the national teams and mls academies it doesn’t matterOlympics 2024 Latest News, Live Scores, & Updated Results | Sportskeeda
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There is a big difference between supporting peoples belief in who they want to be and how they want live their lives, and who they feel and believe they are, versus creating “non-equitable” competitions in sport. This does make anybody transphobic. I completely support being who you are and how you identify, but it should not at the expense of others.
1. Allowing biological males, suppressed hormones or not, to compete against biological women is unfair to woman. There is absolutely an advantage to the biological male. I really do not see how this even debatable. It’s why they have had Men’s and Women’s categories in the first place. Just look at the Thomas swimming results. It’s not a mystery. Look at MMA when a trans woman is literally killing a biological woman in the fight. The underlying biology and genetics matter. To say it does not matter in athletic competition is dishonest.
2. For individual sports, like swimming, track, golf, sports where you compete against a clock, or by yourself, I don’t see a problem with trans athletes participating where they identify. Scores, times, etc. can be gathered at each event/meet and aggregated across other leagues/events in the state/county/country creating their own equitable participation class. This would be done because there are usually not enough trans athletes at one event to create a full division, heat, etc. This is done in many competitions and sports utilizing age, ability, weight, etc. This is not transphobic, this is creating equitable competition environments for everyone participating.
3. For Girls/Women’s Team sports, I am at a loss. I don’t know how you make the competition equitable. The Biological Male has a distinct physical advantage. Imagine a Striker in Soccer, or a Center in Basketball, etc. Boys u15 teams are beating Women’s National Teams in friendly’s. Why? Size, strength, speed, the underlying genetics….????
4. Has anyone noticed that the conversation is always Trans Women (biological males) participating in Biological Women’s Sport’s? It’s never Trans Men (biological women) participating in Men’s Sports….I have never seen this, and if somebody has please enlighten or educate me.
I’m all for Trans Athletes having the opportunity to participate in sports, compete, etc. but it should not be at the expense of Biological Women and their opportunities in sport. In general, in nature Biological Males and Biological Females are typically not equal in size, strength, bone density, etc., etc. It is not Phobic anything, it’s fact. Having a size, strength, speed advantage makes a difference. It’s why when young women play HS Football they most always kick, they are not playing WR, RB, or DB, or Linebacker. Why?
Schools around the country, at LAX, are installing urinals in Women’s restrooms…Biological Men are transferring to Women’s Prisons because they “identify” as a woman. Female inmates getting pregnant…I have not heard of a Biological Woman “identifying” as a man to go to a Male Prison. Why is that?
I’m sorry, but it looks to me that Biological Women, who identify as Women, are the ones that are carrying the biggest burden in this whole debate/issue and are being asked to sacrifice and give the most. It’s certainly not Men.
Asking for equity in competition is not Phobic anything.
2. For the college and higher divisions for such sports as we do test, there are protocols in place to bring the bell curve distribution of mtf trans down to the performance of a cis female. It’s is scientifically unclear right now if that’s even possible in some sports to achieve a balance. The studies aren’t in yet which means we are in a trial and error period. But given it’s a bell curve some trans athletes will outperform some cis women and some won’t. What they are worried about is the Thomas situation and making sure that doesn’t happen. Those situations though are fairly rare at least so far. Most trans athletes are not outlier standouts.
3. For team sports the question on those sports we do test is does the one athlete really make an impact and how much of one
4. Regardless if the answer is no you can’t level the playing field we know factually they can’t compete with cis men since cis men are actively on a performance enhancing drug while the trans mtf on treatment is not. If not, given the rationale of participation behind women’s sports, you must create a league with equal opportunities and equal scholarships (which will be taken from the cis men and women)
5. There are ftm. There have been articles posted on this thread about them. Some of them chose to forgo treatment until their playing viability ends because testosterone is performance enhancing and they are rendered ineligible. Some do transition but also find they cannot compete with cis men. You have correctly spotted an under appreciated and ignored problem which is a real problem.
6. Testing also catches cis females who with genetic or hormonal abnormalities must go through testosterone blockers to compete on some sports particularly individual sports at the highest level. The trans studies underway right now may find these cis women cannot fairly compete either and they may have to be removed from certain sports
7. Your thoughts are thoughtful even if you don’t have the benefit of the full facts already discussed on this thread including ftms. It’s in stark contrast to a few others who have relied on bias and bigotry. There is no question bias is driving some, not all, of the arguments against here. Just as ideology is currently driving some arguments on the pro out there right now (though noticeably not that much on this thread even with eotl surprisingly).
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There is a big difference between supporting peoples belief in who they want to be and how they want live their lives, and who they feel and believe they are, versus creating “non-equitable” competitions in sport. This does make anybody transphobic. I completely support being who you are and how you identify, but it should not at the expense of others.
1. Allowing biological males, suppressed hormones or not, to compete against biological women is unfair to woman. There is absolutely an advantage to the biological male. I really do not see how this even debatable. It’s why they have had Men’s and Women’s categories in the first place. Just look at the Thomas swimming results. It’s not a mystery. Look at MMA when a trans woman is literally killing a biological woman in the fight. The underlying biology and genetics matter. To say it does not matter in athletic competition is dishonest.
2. For individual sports, like swimming, track, golf, sports where you compete against a clock, or by yourself, I don’t see a problem with trans athletes participating where they identify. Scores, times, etc. can be gathered at each event/meet and aggregated across other leagues/events in the state/county/country creating their own equitable participation class. This would be done because there are usually not enough trans athletes at one event to create a full division, heat, etc. This is done in many competitions and sports utilizing age, ability, weight, etc. This is not transphobic, this is creating equitable competition environments for everyone participating.
3. For Girls/Women’s Team sports, I am at a loss. I don’t know how you make the competition equitable. The Biological Male has a distinct physical advantage. Imagine a Striker in Soccer, or a Center in Basketball, etc. Boys u15 teams are beating Women’s National Teams in friendly’s. Why? Size, strength, speed, the underlying genetics….????
4. Has anyone noticed that the conversation is always Trans Women (biological males) participating in Biological Women’s Sport’s? It’s never Trans Men (biological women) participating in Men’s Sports….I have never seen this, and if somebody has please enlighten or educate me.
I’m all for Trans Athletes having the opportunity to participate in sports, compete, etc. but it should not be at the expense of Biological Women and their opportunities in sport. In general, in nature Biological Males and Biological Females are typically not equal in size, strength, bone density, etc., etc. It is not Phobic anything, it’s fact. Having a size, strength, speed advantage makes a difference. It’s why when young women play HS Football they most always kick, they are not playing WR, RB, or DB, or Linebacker. Why?
Schools around the country, at LAX, are installing urinals in Women’s restrooms…Biological Men are transferring to Women’s Prisons because they “identify” as a woman. Female inmates getting pregnant…I have not heard of a Biological Woman “identifying” as a man to go to a Male Prison. Why is that?
I’m sorry, but it looks to me that Biological Women, who identify as Women, are the ones that are carrying the biggest burden in this whole debate/issue and are being asked to sacrifice and give the most. It’s certainly not Men.
Asking for equity in competition is not Phobic anything.
MacDre
PREMIER
Interesting debate going on here. I like the idea of increasing participation and I feel trans athlete’s deserve a safe place. However, I think the rules that allow trans participation in sports are discriminatory. I think the rule’s lead to “gender profiling” and I think the rules are going to traumatize trans athletes similar to how racial profiling has traumatized me as a black man. I think having to constantly test your testosterone levels to prove that levels aren’t as high as a man’s is similar to me constantly having to prove that I am not a criminal. Good initiative, bad judgment!
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
Unintended consequences due to change occur commonly, and I would not be surprised if you are correct. What I am describing is almost assuredly never happening. There's too much "infrastructure" in separate leagues for boys and girls. Also, as long as we have two professional/Olympic levels that separate those with penises who identify as men and those who identify otherwise, there will always be a natural reason to expect the same at the youth level.
Two things are consistently predictive of behavior - incentive and opportunity. Increase either one of those and get more of that behavior. There are a growing number of Pretindians (see link below). Expect more growth in the number of MTF Trans. It will be fascinating to see if it gets to the point where they have to "certify" individuals as Trans. I hope it goes better than the Disinformation Governance Board did.
How the Native American population in the US increased 87% says more about whiteness than about demographics
They’re called ‘pretendians’ – people who long identified as white but are now claiming to be Native American. In the last US Census, the number of Native Americans almost doubled because of them.
theconversation.com
Agree your thought experiment isn’t practical but I do appreciate its ability to get dad4 to admit the most important thing is the bow and participation, not even the training, since they aren’t soccer robots. You single handedly destroyed his line of reasoning which began this. It doesn’t mean there aren’t merits to his concerns. But it does destroy his particular line of reasoning. Congrats.Unintended consequences due to change occur commonly, and I would not be surprised if you are correct. What I am describing is almost assuredly never happening. There's too much "infrastructure" in separate leagues for boys and girls. Also, as long as we have two professional/Olympic levels that separate those with penises who identify as men and those who identify otherwise, there will always be a natural reason to expect the same at the youth level.
Two things are consistently predictive of behavior - incentive and opportunity. Increase either one of those and get more of that behavior. There are a growing number of Pretindians (see link below). Expect more growth in the number of MTF Trans. It will be fascinating to see if it gets to the point where they have to "certify" individuals as Trans. I hope it goes better than the Disinformation Governance Board did.
How the Native American population in the US increased 87% says more about whiteness than about demographics
They’re called ‘pretendians’ – people who long identified as white but are now claiming to be Native American. In the last US Census, the number of Native Americans almost doubled because of them.
interesting this is a Native American controversy among Latinos right now. You have white people with 1/64 Native American ancestry claiming that status which gets them higher up on the oppression and affirmative action scales than Latinos. Yet many of us have even as much as 50% native ancestry and almost all of us not directly from Spain have some oppressed minority in the mix. Yet we are not allowed to declaim Native American status because our native ancestors exist below some arbitrary border between the us and Mexico which is the result of a us war of aggression. And it’s not as if the us was some kind of especially bad to it’s natives…the Spanish and Portuguese were much worse.
It’s not a meritocracy. That’s just wrong. Ive listed all the ways it isn’t starting with the cheaters. If you think the trans folks disrupt your meritocracy start with the outright cheaters
they’ve already tightened the Leah rules in swimming. For every Leah there are ten athletes you never heard of
and on the college level the question is whether that advantage in mtf can ever be leveled. In some sports the answer is yes. There may even be a negative effect. In others it may be no. But we really don’t know that yet because of the ongoing studies.
they’ve already tightened the Leah rules in swimming. For every Leah there are ten athletes you never heard of
and on the college level the question is whether that advantage in mtf can ever be leveled. In some sports the answer is yes. There may even be a negative effect. In others it may be no. But we really don’t know that yet because of the ongoing studies.
The proper way to look at this btw is not as a choice. The discussion has already established there is a biological basis for gender dysmorphia. The proper question is what accommodations, if any, can be fairly extended, given neither direction can compete with cis males. It’s the same question as you would analyze someone with an adhd or autism issue. It’s why we don’t for example require all bathrooms to have wheelchair access: there’s a balancing act that needs to be done.
I never said it was a choice. I think people are who they are, feel how they feel, and everyone should be treated with respect and kindness. People are free to do what they want, and live their life as long as they are not breaking laws and hurting others.
We disagree on meritocracy. You mostly win in sports based on skill and ability. Some people are taller, stronger, faster, smarter, can jump higher, throw further, kick further, etc. Those things are defined by their genetics, work ethic, and training. Life is not fair, every person is unique(DNA, Fingerprints...), not equal or the same, but should have equal opportunity to perform and succeed between the lines without unfair advantages. I wanted to be QB for the Cowboys, but I am just not talented enough. Should they change the rules or make exceptions so I can play? I would love to play in the NFL, make that $$$, but I'm just not good enough.
They penalize players for PED's when caught. Allowing participants with unfair advantages to play a fair game is not right.
I don't have any answers. All I know for sure is allowing Biological Males to compete against Biological Females in sport is unfair. You can genetically engineer, use hormone therapy to normalize and possibly "balance" body chemistry, but how do you adjust skeletal and muscularity diffefences between the sexes. Surgery? I don't see how this can be done to create parity.
We disagree on meritocracy. You mostly win in sports based on skill and ability. Some people are taller, stronger, faster, smarter, can jump higher, throw further, kick further, etc. Those things are defined by their genetics, work ethic, and training. Life is not fair, every person is unique(DNA, Fingerprints...), not equal or the same, but should have equal opportunity to perform and succeed between the lines without unfair advantages. I wanted to be QB for the Cowboys, but I am just not talented enough. Should they change the rules or make exceptions so I can play? I would love to play in the NFL, make that $$$, but I'm just not good enough.
They penalize players for PED's when caught. Allowing participants with unfair advantages to play a fair game is not right.
I don't have any answers. All I know for sure is allowing Biological Males to compete against Biological Females in sport is unfair. You can genetically engineer, use hormone therapy to normalize and possibly "balance" body chemistry, but how do you adjust skeletal and muscularity diffefences between the sexes. Surgery? I don't see how this can be done to create parity.
They absolutely do not police peds on the youth level. Name me the last person that got caught in a regime where they don’t test. For example, I can tell you the problem is rife in the higher levels of boys high school football in Los Angeles and I suspect from having talked to families in that world nearly 1/5 is on peds. The studies have shown among boys all sports it could be as high as 10% by the time they graduate and girls 2%. Don’t talk to me about meritocracy until you sus out the cheaters
What even is a meritocracy in sports? My sons friend is a finer soccer player than most mls next players but was rejected by the teams because of his height and corresponding shooting power. That meritocratic? Freakonomics pointed out a majority of youth high level hockey players are January/February birthdays. That meritocratic that you are born in a month near the birth line? My kid was impaired early on by his adhd condition and coaches unwillingness to deal with it. Adhd kids mature slower than other boys and he’s near the age line anyway. That meritocratic he can’t play in the immediate year down? If he could he works hard enough and is skilled enough he’d likely be an academy player.
your argument basically amounts to it’s unfair because it feels that way to me. That just emotions it’s not logic. Facts don’t care about your feelings. The reasoned way to look at this is as a disability. The question we have to answer is are there accommodations we can give that are reasonable. Not the boys should play with boys and girls should play with girls because we are talking here about kids whose brains show physiological signs of the opposite gender…they are almost literally the opposite brain trapped in the wrong body.
for The youth level we don’t police peds and we don’t enforce a level meritocratic playing field. The answer is easy: let them play. As dad4 said, the hair bow is what is important, because they aren’t soccer robots. For the college level and higher the question is where can we put them: does treatment reduce at least a portion of athletes down so they can compete fairly with the women, is the change so slight they can compete with the men (this part has been answered already…for people moving in both directions the answer is generally no since being on testosterone is a ped) or is the difference between both so vast that you need to put them in separate leagues. For some individual sports like running wrestling and swimming the answer is we probably will need separate leagues but we aren’t there yet. The data isn’t fully in yet. For team sport the answer is likely the impact on a team (other than perhaps basketball) is so minimal that it doesn’t make a difference of performance is otherwise sufficiently reduced. The science will answer the question except for a few tough cases most notably women’s basketball, cycling and rowing.
thirteenknots
SILVER ELITE
Why do you assume that a non-medicated mtf trans athlete cannot compete with cis males?
You've given no evidence for it. As far as I can tell, it simply is not true.
You're simply asserting, with no backing, that mtf trans athletes are slower and weaker as a way of justifying a rule to allow them to play down. But this is conclusion driven reasoning. You want to include mtf athlt
Don’t invoke my name to justify your crazy.
Yes, it’s about the hair bow, and being the same. At U7.
We’re talking mostly about post puberty: U13 and above.
The point under discussion in that particular exchange was mtf under treatment. It’s quite possible a mtf not under treatment bell curve to be curve v cis males is not identical. The drift wouldn’t however be particularly far and might be dependent on age. That’s why these discussions need to be targeted to age and course of treatment specifics. Thanks for making that very good point for me
as for the crazy, hey you were making the point and I don’t recall kicking Limited it to u7. In fact the ages under discussion were indeed early teens. Just because you regret falling on your face don’t come crying to me
as for crazy…I’m not the one who went into Covid panic, admired the Chinese and Australian responses, wanted neighbor to inform on neighbor, swore in your experts and st. Fauci on Covid but rejected them on this issue, wore an n95 to market post vaccine, swore to the effectiveness of masks even after the data crumbled around us, advocated severe restrictions then made a tournament exception for themselves, supported vax mandates even after it was clear they weren’t sterilizing, advocated for kids not to have sleepovers or indoor gatherings post vaccine, thought he was doing a public service with once weekly takeout while the plebs worked to make food for him, accused me of misogyny, accused me of not understanding the gay community, showed very little sympathy towards trans kids despite being an educator and your kids have trans friends, declared them all as obvious, and then backed yourself into corner with the admission that it’s all about the hair bow and not necessarily the training then tried to backtrack the egg on his face
my approach has been entirely centrist, not dogmatic and open to what the science might show us. Yours is all ideology. Yours has been frankly awful which is not surprising given your history on Covid which was also awful.
It's dishonest to restrict your argument to mtf who are on testosterone inhibitors.
You have been advocating a policy that allows all mtf athletes to compete in the girls youth leagues. You don't get to ignore 2/3 of them just because their data doesn't support your case.