Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[dad4]

Not really. If you are purely like to like, height/weight/development, when he was 12, my son's friend's categorization probably would have had some 14-15 year old girls in it. Now, it probably has some 18 year old girls in it. Most girl's though would be really far down the totem poll of development ranks once the teenage years kick in.

But again, sports really isn't all about fairness and having like to like compete against each other. It's also about participation. Which completely blows apart your argument since you have to therefore ensure the trans also have a place to participate (which isn't necessarily the cis men's division, as we've already established).

Here's a story for you. My son did a winter GK over this last Christmas holiday. The first 3 days he was assigned to a group consisting of mostly older boys in early highschool, a few of them MLS academy keepers, and the two girls in the group were seniors/juniors in high school. He was over the moon and loved the competition even though he was on the weaker side of the keepers. The 4th day the MLS academy keepers had to travel for MLS responsibilities of the weekend and so weren't at the camp. Several girls his age or 1 year above got promoted to the group. He hated that 4th day and thought it was a bit of a waste. Was even yelling at them to give better service even though these girls were supposedly "elite" keepers playing at the highest level. Should we at the teen years ban even elite girl goalkeepers from elite goalkeeping camps even though by age 14 they can't even compete with flight 2 male goalkeepers (one of which was in the group and was actually stronger than all the remaining girls who outranked him) or is it about training and participation there? I note there are several goalkeeper coaches around town which do not at the teen years mix the girls in with the boys for this very reason, and I note there are even a few which discouraged girls from even attending elite session no matter their rank or age.

Look at your wrists. They are slimmer than a man's wrists.

Find a mirror. Look at your neck. It is thinner than a man's neck.

You don't put girls as keeper in a U17 boy's game because they would break bones.

That is true, even if the broken bones belong to someone who really, truly believes they are a boy. Gender identity doesn't override physics.

 

[Grace T.]

Look at your wrists. They are slimmer than a man's wrists.

Find a mirror. Look at your neck. It is thinner than a man's neck.

You don't put girls as keeper in a U17 boy's game because they would break bones.

That is true, even if the broken bones belong to someone who really, truly believes they are a boy. Gender identity doesn't override physics.

Yeah but you could but the U19 girls in with the U15 boys hypothetically.

In any case, the scenario I outlined for you isn't about the game. It's about training.

 

[dad4]

Yeah but you could but the U19 girls in with the U15 boys hypothetically.

In any case, the scenario I outlined for you isn't about the game. It's about training.

If you want to make your sport appealing to girls, it's not about the training, either. It's about the matching hair bows.

That's why a unisex league would lose most female athletes. You're optimizing for a world of soccer robots. These are kids.

 

[Grace T.]

If you want to make your sport appealing to girls, it's not about the training, either. It's about the matching hair bows.

That's why a unisex league would lose most female athletes. You're optimizing for a world of soccer robots. These are kids.

Don’t you hear yourself? You JUST MADE THE ARGUMENT FOR FTM participation at the youth level where we don’t really care about the level playing field. It’s about the matching hair bow, not even about the training. The rest doesn’t matter since they are just kids. Not soccer robots. The argument you’ve just made for all these umpteen pages basically has just crumbled to this. Ladies and gentlemen (and yes I do totally mean this ironically) of the jerky, I respectfully submit my case.

 

[dad4]

Don’t you hear yourself? You JUST MADE THE ARGUMENT FOR FTM participation at the youth level where we don’t really care about the level playing field. It’s about the matching hair bow, not even about the training. The rest doesn’t matter since they are just kids. Not soccer robots. The argument you’ve just made for all these umpteen pages basically has just crumbled to this. Ladies and gentlemen (and yes I do totally mean this ironically) of the jerky, I respectfully submit my case.

Where do you find a league full of players who don’t care about a level playing field?

That group does not exist. Even AYSO cares immensely about creating a level playing field.

At most, you have people who don’t care about someone else’s level playing field.

 

[Grace T.]

Where do you find a league full of players who don’t care about a level playing field?

That group does not exist. Even AYSO cares immensely about creating a level playing field.

At most, you have people who don’t care about someone else’s level playing field.

We went through this already. On the most basic level they don’t go after the cheaters using basically the same substances the trans going in both directions are on. So the trans are punished for being on the substance but the cheaters are not.

additionally with youth soccer in particular: the restrictions on ages are imperfect at a time a year age gap makes a huge difference, there are no height weight and development categories where it can make a huge difference with the resulting laughably stupid result of the 6 foot twelve year old playing against my kids friend with the broken back, there’s cheating on the birth certificates, assignment is not based purely on merit, referee training is imperfect and sometimes of low quality, clubs are dispersed so large geography’s have an advantage over smaller ones, coaches are encouraged to take short cuts which lead to short term thinking over development and developmentally focused teams are punished, there’s no exceptions drawn for physical and mental handicaps, and building winning teams is more often about recruitment than training which gives clubs with access to the top leagues a leg up.

From the top to the bottom of the whole stinking edifice of youth soccer, the playing field is most certainly not level. Indeed the boards are full of complaints about how it is not a level playing field. But that ok because of your own words: on the youth level, it’s about the bow, not building soccer robots. Your attempts to William Jennings Bryant a closing argument notwithstanding. “If it’s good enough for Brady then it’s good enough for me”

 

[Woobie06]

Look at your wrists. They are slimmer than a man's wrists.

Find a mirror. Look at your neck. It is thinner than a man's neck.

You don't put girls as keeper in a U17 boy's game because they would break bones.

That is true, even if the broken bones belong to someone who really, truly believes they are a boy. Gender identity doesn't override physics.

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There is a big difference between supporting peoples belief in who they want to be and how they want live their lives, and who they feel and believe they are, versus creating “non-equitable” competitions in sport. This does make anybody transphobic. I completely support being who you are and how you identify, but it should not at the expense of others.

1. Allowing biological males, suppressed hormones or not, to compete against biological women is unfair to woman. There is absolutely an advantage to the biological male. I really do not see how this even debatable. It’s why they have had Men’s and Women’s categories in the first place. Just look at the Thomas swimming results. It’s not a mystery. Look at MMA when a trans woman is literally killing a biological woman in the fight. The underlying biology and genetics matter. To say it does not matter in athletic competition is dishonest.

2. For individual sports, like swimming, track, golf, sports where you compete against a clock, or by yourself, I don’t see a problem with trans athletes participating where they identify. Scores, times, etc. can be gathered at each event/meet and aggregated across other leagues/events in the state/county/country creating their own equitable participation class. This would be done because there are usually not enough trans athletes at one event to create a full division, heat, etc. This is done in many competitions and sports utilizing age, ability, weight, etc. This is not transphobic, this is creating equitable competition environments for everyone participating.

3. For Girls/Women’s Team sports, I am at a loss. I don’t know how you make the competition equitable. The Biological Male has a distinct physical advantage. Imagine a Striker in Soccer, or a Center in Basketball, etc. Boys u15 teams are beating Women’s National Teams in friendly’s. Why? Size, strength, speed, the underlying genetics….????

4. Has anyone noticed that the conversation is always Trans Women (biological males) participating in Biological Women’s Sport’s? It’s never Trans Men (biological women) participating in Men’s Sports….I have never seen this, and if somebody has please enlighten or educate me.

I’m all for Trans Athletes having the opportunity to participate in sports, compete, etc. but it should not be at the expense of Biological Women and their opportunities in sport. In general, in nature Biological Males and Biological Females are typically not equal in size, strength, bone density, etc., etc. It is not Phobic anything, it’s fact. Having a size, strength, speed advantage makes a difference. It’s why when young women play HS Football they most always kick, they are not playing WR, RB, or DB, or Linebacker. Why?

Schools around the country, at LAX, are installing urinals in Women’s restrooms…Biological Men are transferring to Women’s Prisons because they “identify” as a woman. Female inmates getting pregnant…I have not heard of a Biological Woman “identifying” as a man to go to a Male Prison. Why is that?

I’m sorry, but it looks to me that Biological Women, who identify as Women, are the ones that are carrying the biggest burden in this whole debate/issue and are being asked to sacrifice and give the most. It’s certainly not Men.

Asking for equity in competition is not Phobic anything.

 

[Grace T.]

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There is a big difference between supporting peoples belief in who they want to be and how they want live their lives, and who they feel and believe they are, versus creating “non-equitable” competitions in sport. This does make anybody transphobic. I completely support being who you are and how you identify, but it should not at the expense of others.

1. Allowing biological males, suppressed hormones or not, to compete against biological women is unfair to woman. There is absolutely an advantage to the biological male. I really do not see how this even debatable. It’s why they have had Men’s and Women’s categories in the first place. Just look at the Thomas swimming results. It’s not a mystery. Look at MMA when a trans woman is literally killing a biological woman in the fight. The underlying biology and genetics matter. To say it does not matter in athletic competition is dishonest.

2. For individual sports, like swimming, track, golf, sports where you compete against a clock, or by yourself, I don’t see a problem with trans athletes participating where they identify. Scores, times, etc. can be gathered at each event/meet and aggregated across other leagues/events in the state/county/country creating their own equitable participation class. This would be done because there are usually not enough trans athletes at one event to create a full division, heat, etc. This is done in many competitions and sports utilizing age, ability, weight, etc. This is not transphobic, this is creating equitable competition environments for everyone participating.

3. For Girls/Women’s Team sports, I am at a loss. I don’t know how you make the competition equitable. The Biological Male has a distinct physical advantage. Imagine a Striker in Soccer, or a Center in Basketball, etc. Boys u15 teams are beating Women’s National Teams in friendly’s. Why? Size, strength, speed, the underlying genetics….????

4. Has anyone noticed that the conversation is always Trans Women (biological males) participating in Biological Women’s Sport’s? It’s never Trans Men (biological women) participating in Men’s Sports….I have never seen this, and if somebody has please enlighten or educate me.

I’m all for Trans Athletes having the opportunity to participate in sports, compete, etc. but it should not be at the expense of Biological Women and their opportunities in sport. In general, in nature Biological Males and Biological Females are typically not equal in size, strength, bone density, etc., etc. It is not Phobic anything, it’s fact. Having a size, strength, speed advantage makes a difference. It’s why when young women play HS Football they most always kick, they are not playing WR, RB, or DB, or Linebacker. Why?

Schools around the country, at LAX, are installing urinals in Women’s restrooms…Biological Men are transferring to Women’s Prisons because they “identify” as a woman. Female inmates getting pregnant…I have not heard of a Biological Woman “identifying” as a man to go to a Male Prison. Why is that?

I’m sorry, but it looks to me that Biological Women, who identify as Women, are the ones that are carrying the biggest burden in this whole debate/issue and are being asked to sacrifice and give the most. It’s certainly not Men.

Asking for equity in competition is not Phobic anything.

1. It is if you don’t care about the level playing field elsewhere. In the youth division we don’t test for the performance enhancing drugs of which testosterone is the biggest one, is up to ten percent of elite youth male athletes, and is the exact substance the trans going in each direction are on. Why? Because on the youth level with the exception of the national teams and mls academies it doesn’t matter
2. For the college and higher divisions for such sports as we do test, there are protocols in place to bring the bell curve distribution of mtf trans down to the performance of a cis female. It’s is scientifically unclear right now if that’s even possible in some sports to achieve a balance. The studies aren’t in yet which means we are in a trial and error period. But given it’s a bell curve some trans athletes will outperform some cis women and some won’t. What they are worried about is the Thomas situation and making sure that doesn’t happen. Those situations though are fairly rare at least so far. Most trans athletes are not outlier standouts.
3. For team sports the question on those sports we do test is does the one athlete really make an impact and how much of one
4. Regardless if the answer is no you can’t level the playing field we know factually they can’t compete with cis men since cis men are actively on a performance enhancing drug while the trans mtf on treatment is not. If not, given the rationale of participation behind women’s sports, you must create a league with equal opportunities and equal scholarships (which will be taken from the cis men and women)
5. There are ftm. There have been articles posted on this thread about them. Some of them chose to forgo treatment until their playing viability ends because testosterone is performance enhancing and they are rendered ineligible. Some do transition but also find they cannot compete with cis men. You have correctly spotted an under appreciated and ignored problem which is a real problem.
6. Testing also catches cis females who with genetic or hormonal abnormalities must go through testosterone blockers to compete on some sports particularly individual sports at the highest level. The trans studies underway right now may find these cis women cannot fairly compete either and they may have to be removed from certain sports
7. Your thoughts are thoughtful even if you don’t have the benefit of the full facts already discussed on this thread including ftms. It’s in stark contrast to a few others who have relied on bias and bigotry. There is no question bias is driving some, not all, of the arguments against here. Just as ideology is currently driving some arguments on the pro out there right now (though noticeably not that much on this thread even with eotl surprisingly).

 

[crush]

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There is a big difference between supporting peoples belief in who they want to be and how they want live their lives, and who they feel and believe they are, versus creating “non-equitable” competitions in sport. This does make anybody transphobic. I completely support being who you are and how you identify, but it should not at the expense of others.

1. Allowing biological males, suppressed hormones or not, to compete against biological women is unfair to woman. There is absolutely an advantage to the biological male. I really do not see how this even debatable. It’s why they have had Men’s and Women’s categories in the first place. Just look at the Thomas swimming results. It’s not a mystery. Look at MMA when a trans woman is literally killing a biological woman in the fight. The underlying biology and genetics matter. To say it does not matter in athletic competition is dishonest.

2. For individual sports, like swimming, track, golf, sports where you compete against a clock, or by yourself, I don’t see a problem with trans athletes participating where they identify. Scores, times, etc. can be gathered at each event/meet and aggregated across other leagues/events in the state/county/country creating their own equitable participation class. This would be done because there are usually not enough trans athletes at one event to create a full division, heat, etc. This is done in many competitions and sports utilizing age, ability, weight, etc. This is not transphobic, this is creating equitable competition environments for everyone participating.

3. For Girls/Women’s Team sports, I am at a loss. I don’t know how you make the competition equitable. The Biological Male has a distinct physical advantage. Imagine a Striker in Soccer, or a Center in Basketball, etc. Boys u15 teams are beating Women’s National Teams in friendly’s. Why? Size, strength, speed, the underlying genetics….????

4. Has anyone noticed that the conversation is always Trans Women (biological males) participating in Biological Women’s Sport’s? It’s never Trans Men (biological women) participating in Men’s Sports….I have never seen this, and if somebody has please enlighten or educate me.

I’m all for Trans Athletes having the opportunity to participate in sports, compete, etc. but it should not be at the expense of Biological Women and their opportunities in sport. In general, in nature Biological Males and Biological Females are typically not equal in size, strength, bone density, etc., etc. It is not Phobic anything, it’s fact. Having a size, strength, speed advantage makes a difference. It’s why when young women play HS Football they most always kick, they are not playing WR, RB, or DB, or Linebacker. Why?

Schools around the country, at LAX, are installing urinals in Women’s restrooms…Biological Men are transferring to Women’s Prisons because they “identify” as a woman. Female inmates getting pregnant…I have not heard of a Biological Woman “identifying” as a man to go to a Male Prison. Why is that?

I’m sorry, but it looks to me that Biological Women, who identify as Women, are the ones that are carrying the biggest burden in this whole debate/issue and are being asked to sacrifice and give the most. It’s certainly not Men.

Asking for equity in competition is not Phobic anything.

Amen!

 

[crush]

 

[MacDre]

Interesting debate going on here. I like the idea of increasing participation and I feel trans athlete’s deserve a safe place. However, I think the rules that allow trans participation in sports are discriminatory. I think the rule’s lead to “gender profiling” and I think the rules are going to traumatize trans athletes similar to how racial profiling has traumatized me as a black man. I think having to constantly test your testosterone levels to prove that levels aren’t as high as a man’s is similar to me constantly having to prove that I am not a criminal. Good initiative, bad judgment!

 

[crush]

 

[Woobie06]

1. It is if you don’t care about the level playing field elsewhere. In the youth division we don’t test for the performance enhancing drugs of which testosterone is the biggest one, is up to ten percent of elite youth male athletes, and is the exact substance the trans going in each direction are on. Why? Because on the youth level with the exception of the national teams and mls academies it doesn’t matter
2. For the college and higher divisions for such sports as we do test, there are protocols in place to bring the bell curve distribution of mtf trans down to the performance of a cis female. It’s is scientifically unclear right now if that’s even possible in some sports to achieve a balance. The studies aren’t in yet which means we are in a trial and error period. But given it’s a bell curve some trans athletes will outperform some cis women and some won’t. What they are worried about is the Thomas situation and making sure that doesn’t happen. Those situations though are fairly rare at least so far. Most trans athletes are not outlier standouts.
3. For team sports the question on those sports we do test is does the one athlete really make an impact and how much of one
4. Regardless if the answer is no you can’t level the playing field we know factually they can’t compete with cis men since cis men are actively on a performance enhancing drug while the trans mtf on treatment is not. If not, given the rationale of participation behind women’s sports, you must create a league with equal opportunities and equal scholarships (which will be taken from the cis men and women)
5. There are ftm. There have been articles posted on this thread about them. Some of them chose to forgo treatment until their playing viability ends because testosterone is performance enhancing and they are rendered ineligible. Some do transition but also find they cannot compete with cis men. You have correctly spotted an under appreciated and ignored problem which is a real problem.
6. Testing also catches cis females who with genetic or hormonal abnormalities must go through testosterone blockers to compete on some sports particularly individual sports at the highest level. The trans studies underway right now may find these cis women cannot fairly compete either and they may have to be removed from certain sports
7. Your thoughts are thoughtful even if you don’t have the benefit of the full facts already discussed on this thread including ftms. It’s in stark contrast to a few others who have relied on bias and bigotry. There is no question bias is driving some, not all, of the arguments against here. Just as ideology is currently driving some arguments on the pro out there right now (though noticeably not that much on this thread even with eotl surprisingly).
[/

Not all men/boys high school, youth, pro athletes take PED’s.

Sports is a meritocracy. It is predicated on an equal competition environment for the participants. There should be no PED’s, no cheating, etc. There will always be cheating as long as there W’s and L’s and $$$ involved. The winner in competitions should have better tactics or are better physically or sometimes get calls in the favor, lucky bounces. That’s a very romantic view.

Should we put ankle weights on faster players to slow them down? Spot teams points? How do you make competitions equitable when allowing an unfair advantage to others?

All I am asking for is a level playing field. There are Boy’s and Girls Leagues, Men’s and Women’s Leagues. There are not Trans Leagues…why…not enough participants??? I read an article I think that states Trans Athletes make 1% of HS Athletes.

So now we are trying to force Girls and Women to accept Trans Women in their leagues and competitions who have a legitimately unfair advantage in the competition. Like I said, Biological Women are taking the hit.

I don’t need a study to know that a Biological Male has a physical advantage over a Biological Female. I don’t need a study to know that in a physical competition a Biological Male will most always win over a Biological Female purely based on genetics and nature. You can not naturally change genetics and nature. I don’t know how you engineer lower performance to make competitions equal.

I am aware of a Trans Young Man playing soccer with a girls youth team, who could not continue due to hormone therapy, testosterone, etc. because it created a “unfair” environment. It is sad because as a Biological Young Lady, the player was very good, as a Trans Young Man, they could not compete are the same level at the same age group.

To be clear, Thomas is not an outlier standout, Thomas is a Trans Woman who had/has a distinct physical advantage participating in a Biological Women’s Category. Thomas was not a standout in the Men’s Category.

It really blows my mind how so many groups out there are fighting for Women’s rights, but are in support of something that takes away from them. Allowing Biological Males to compete directly against Biological Females is unfair.

Does this make me a feminist?

I don’t see how it is equitable or inclusive to have Trans Girls Winning HS Track Meets, while Biological Girls place Second. No matter how hard they train, work, grind, they will never win. It seems discriminatory against the Biological Female IMHO.

It’s the difference between Gender and Sex. Sex has long determined which Category of sport you participate in Men’s and Women. Biological Sex has also determined the physical attributes of Men and Women.

Gender, how you identify, appears now to be mutually exclusive to your sex in these discussions. The Gender you identify with does not change your sex. I can identify with one or more than hundreds of genders, but it does not change my sex.

Sports is the ultimate Meritocracy and the governing organizations have a responsibility to keep competitions fair. Allowing unfair advantages to teams or individuals is not fair play.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

What you're describing is eliminating girls leagues.

That would mean good local development opportunities for any high talent girls who stay.

It would also mean far fewer girls in sports in general. Most would look around, decide they didn't fit in, and leave.

Unintended consequences due to change occur commonly, and I would not be surprised if you are correct. What I am describing is almost assuredly never happening. There's too much "infrastructure" in separate leagues for boys and girls. Also, as long as we have two professional/Olympic levels that separate those with penises who identify as men and those who identify otherwise, there will always be a natural reason to expect the same at the youth level.

Two things are consistently predictive of behavior - incentive and opportunity. Increase either one of those and get more of that behavior. There are a growing number of Pretindians (see link below). Expect more growth in the number of MTF Trans. It will be fascinating to see if it gets to the point where they have to "certify" individuals as Trans. I hope it goes better than the Disinformation Governance Board did.

How the Native American population in the US increased 87% says more about whiteness than about demographics

They’re called ‘pretendians’ – people who long identified as white but are now claiming to be Native American. In the last US Census, the number of Native Americans almost doubled because of them.

theconversation.com

 

[Grace T.]

Unintended consequences due to change occur commonly, and I would not be surprised if you are correct. What I am describing is almost assuredly never happening. There's too much "infrastructure" in separate leagues for boys and girls. Also, as long as we have two professional/Olympic levels that separate those with penises who identify as men and those who identify otherwise, there will always be a natural reason to expect the same at the youth level.

Two things are consistently predictive of behavior - incentive and opportunity. Increase either one of those and get more of that behavior. There are a growing number of Pretindians (see link below). Expect more growth in the number of MTF Trans. It will be fascinating to see if it gets to the point where they have to "certify" individuals as Trans. I hope it goes better than the Disinformation Governance Board did.

How the Native American population in the US increased 87% says more about whiteness than about demographics

They’re called ‘pretendians’ – people who long identified as white but are now claiming to be Native American. In the last US Census, the number of Native Americans almost doubled because of them.

theconversation.com

Agree your thought experiment isn’t practical but I do appreciate its ability to get dad4 to admit the most important thing is the bow and participation, not even the training, since they aren’t soccer robots. You single handedly destroyed his line of reasoning which began this. It doesn’t mean there aren’t merits to his concerns. But it does destroy his particular line of reasoning. Congrats.

interesting this is a Native American controversy among Latinos right now. You have white people with 1/64 Native American ancestry claiming that status which gets them higher up on the oppression and affirmative action scales than Latinos. Yet many of us have even as much as 50% native ancestry and almost all of us not directly from Spain have some oppressed minority in the mix. Yet we are not allowed to declaim Native American status because our native ancestors exist below some arbitrary border between the us and Mexico which is the result of a us war of aggression. And it’s not as if the us was some kind of especially bad to it’s natives…the Spanish and Portuguese were much worse.

 

[Grace T.]

It’s not a meritocracy. That’s just wrong. Ive listed all the ways it isn’t starting with the cheaters. If you think the trans folks disrupt your meritocracy start with the outright cheaters

they’ve already tightened the Leah rules in swimming. For every Leah there are ten athletes you never heard of

and on the college level the question is whether that advantage in mtf can ever be leveled. In some sports the answer is yes. There may even be a negative effect. In others it may be no. But we really don’t know that yet because of the ongoing studies.

 

[Grace T.]

The proper way to look at this btw is not as a choice. The discussion has already established there is a biological basis for gender dysmorphia. The proper question is what accommodations, if any, can be fairly extended, given neither direction can compete with cis males. It’s the same question as you would analyze someone with an adhd or autism issue. It’s why we don’t for example require all bathrooms to have wheelchair access: there’s a balancing act that needs to be done.

 

[Woobie06]

I never said it was a choice. I think people are who they are, feel how they feel, and everyone should be treated with respect and kindness. People are free to do what they want, and live their life as long as they are not breaking laws and hurting others.

We disagree on meritocracy. You mostly win in sports based on skill and ability. Some people are taller, stronger, faster, smarter, can jump higher, throw further, kick further, etc. Those things are defined by their genetics, work ethic, and training. Life is not fair, every person is unique(DNA, Fingerprints...), not equal or the same, but should have equal opportunity to perform and succeed between the lines without unfair advantages. I wanted to be QB for the Cowboys, but I am just not talented enough. Should they change the rules or make exceptions so I can play? I would love to play in the NFL, make that $$$, but I'm just not good enough.

They penalize players for PED's when caught. Allowing participants with unfair advantages to play a fair game is not right.

I don't have any answers. All I know for sure is allowing Biological Males to compete against Biological Females in sport is unfair. You can genetically engineer, use hormone therapy to normalize and possibly "balance" body chemistry, but how do you adjust skeletal and muscularity diffefences between the sexes. Surgery? I don't see how this can be done to create parity.

 

[Grace T.]

I never said it was a choice. I think people are who they are, feel how they feel, and everyone should be treated with respect and kindness. People are free to do what they want, and live their life as long as they are not breaking laws and hurting others.

We disagree on meritocracy. You mostly win in sports based on skill and ability. Some people are taller, stronger, faster, smarter, can jump higher, throw further, kick further, etc. Those things are defined by their genetics, work ethic, and training. Life is not fair, every person is unique(DNA, Fingerprints...), not equal or the same, but should have equal opportunity to perform and succeed between the lines without unfair advantages. I wanted to be QB for the Cowboys, but I am just not talented enough. Should they change the rules or make exceptions so I can play? I would love to play in the NFL, make that $$$, but I'm just not good enough.

They penalize players for PED's when caught. Allowing participants with unfair advantages to play a fair game is not right.

I don't have any answers. All I know for sure is allowing Biological Males to compete against Biological Females in sport is unfair. You can genetically engineer, use hormone therapy to normalize and possibly "balance" body chemistry, but how do you adjust skeletal and muscularity diffefences between the sexes. Surgery? I don't see how this can be done to create parity.

They absolutely do not police peds on the youth level. Name me the last person that got caught in a regime where they don’t test. For example, I can tell you the problem is rife in the higher levels of boys high school football in Los Angeles and I suspect from having talked to families in that world nearly 1/5 is on peds. The studies have shown among boys all sports it could be as high as 10% by the time they graduate and girls 2%. Don’t talk to me about meritocracy until you sus out the cheaters

What even is a meritocracy in sports? My sons friend is a finer soccer player than most mls next players but was rejected by the teams because of his height and corresponding shooting power. That meritocratic? Freakonomics pointed out a majority of youth high level hockey players are January/February birthdays. That meritocratic that you are born in a month near the birth line? My kid was impaired early on by his adhd condition and coaches unwillingness to deal with it. Adhd kids mature slower than other boys and he’s near the age line anyway. That meritocratic he can’t play in the immediate year down? If he could he works hard enough and is skilled enough he’d likely be an academy player.

your argument basically amounts to it’s unfair because it feels that way to me. That just emotions it’s not logic. Facts don’t care about your feelings. The reasoned way to look at this is as a disability. The question we have to answer is are there accommodations we can give that are reasonable. Not the boys should play with boys and girls should play with girls because we are talking here about kids whose brains show physiological signs of the opposite gender…they are almost literally the opposite brain trapped in the wrong body.

for The youth level we don’t police peds and we don’t enforce a level meritocratic playing field. The answer is easy: let them play. As dad4 said, the hair bow is what is important, because they aren’t soccer robots. For the college level and higher the question is where can we put them: does treatment reduce at least a portion of athletes down so they can compete fairly with the women, is the change so slight they can compete with the men (this part has been answered already…for people moving in both directions the answer is generally no since being on testosterone is a ped) or is the difference between both so vast that you need to put them in separate leagues. For some individual sports like running wrestling and swimming the answer is we probably will need separate leagues but we aren’t there yet. The data isn’t fully in yet. For team sport the answer is likely the impact on a team (other than perhaps basketball) is so minimal that it doesn’t make a difference of performance is otherwise sufficiently reduced. The science will answer the question except for a few tough cases most notably women’s basketball, cycling and rowing.

 

[thirteenknots]

They absolutely do not police peds on the youth level. Name me the last person that got caught in a regime where they don’t test. For example, I can tell you the problem is rife in the higher levels of boys high school football in Los Angeles and I suspect from having talked to families in that world nearly 1/5 is on peds. The studies have shown among boys all sports it could be as high as 10% by the time they graduate and girls 2%. Don’t talk to me about meritocracy until you sus out the cheaters

What even is a meritocracy in sports? My sons friend is a finer soccer player than most mls next players but was rejected by the teams because of his height and corresponding shooting power. That meritocratic? Freakonomics pointed out a majority of youth high level hockey players are January/February birthdays. That meritocratic that you are born in a month near the birth line? My kid was impaired early on by his adhd condition and coaches unwillingness to deal with it. Adhd kids mature slower than other boys and he’s near the age line anyway. That meritocratic he can’t play in the immediate year down? If he could he works hard enough and is skilled enough he’d likely be an academy player.

your argument basically amounts to it’s unfair because it feels that way to me. That just emotions it’s not logic. Facts don’t care about your feelings. The reasoned way to look at this is as a disability. The question we have to answer is are there accommodations we can give that are reasonable. Not the boys should play with boys and girls should play with girls because we are talking here about kids whose brains show physiological signs of the opposite gender…they are almost literally the opposite brain trapped in the wrong body.

for The youth level we don’t police peds and we don’t enforce a level meritocratic playing field. The answer is easy: let them play. As dad4 said, the hair bow is what is important, because they aren’t soccer robots. For the college level and higher the question is where can we put them: does treatment reduce at least a portion of athletes down so they can compete fairly with the women, is the change so slight they can compete with the men (this part has been answered already…for people moving in both directions the answer is generally no since being on testosterone is a ped) or is the difference between both so vast that you need to put them in separate leagues. For some individual sports like running wrestling and swimming the answer is we probably will need separate leagues but we aren’t there yet. The data isn’t fully in yet. For team sport the answer is likely the impact on a team (other than perhaps basketball) is so minimal that it doesn’t make a difference of performance is otherwise sufficiently reduced. The science will answer the question except for a few tough cases most notably women’s basketball, cycling and rowing.

They absolutely do not police peds on the youth level. Name me the last person that got caught in a regime where they don’t test. For example, I can tell you the problem is rife in the higher levels of boys high school football in Los Angeles and I suspect from having talked to families in that world nearly 1/5 is on peds. The studies have shown among boys all sports it could be as high as 10% by the time they graduate and girls 2%. Don’t talk to me about meritocracy until you sus out the cheaters

What even is a meritocracy in sports? My sons friend is a finer soccer player than most mls next players but was rejected by the teams because of his height and corresponding shooting power. That meritocratic? Freakonomics pointed out a majority of youth high level hockey players are January/February birthdays. That meritocratic that you are born in a month near the birth line? My kid was impaired early on by his adhd condition and coaches unwillingness to deal with it. Adhd kids mature slower than other boys and he’s near the age line anyway. That meritocratic he can’t play in the immediate year down? If he could he works hard enough and is skilled enough he’d likely be an academy player.

your argument basically amounts to it’s unfair because it feels that way to me. That just emotions it’s not logic. Facts don’t care about your feelings. The reasoned way to look at this is as a disability. The question we have to answer is are there accommodations we can give that are reasonable. Not the boys should play with boys and girls should play with girls because we are talking here about kids whose brains show physiological signs of the opposite gender…they are almost literally the opposite brain trapped in the wrong body.

for The youth level we don’t police peds and we don’t enforce a level meritocratic playing field. The answer is easy: let them play. As dad4 said, the hair bow is what is important, because they aren’t soccer robots. For the college level and higher the question is where can we put them: does treatment reduce at least a portion of athletes down so they can compete fairly with the women, is the change so slight they can compete with the men (this part has been answered already…for people moving in both directions the answer is generally no since being on testosterone is a ped) or is the difference between both so vast that you need to put them in separate leagues. For some individual sports like running wrestling and swimming the answer is we probably will need separate leagues but we aren’t there yet. The data isn’t fully in yet. For team sport the answer is likely the impact on a team (other than perhaps basketball) is so minimal that it doesn’t make a difference of performance is otherwise sufficiently reduced. The science will answer the question except for a few tough cases most notably women’s basketball, cycling and rowing.

YOUR GASLIGHTING.......

IT'S CHEATING PURE AND SIMPLE !!!