Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[SurFutbol]

When your argument descends into assumptions and personal attacks, you've already lost.

There is no serious debate that a woman who went through puberty as a boy will have physical athletic advantages. So how do you handle these cases? What is fair? Like it or not, whatever decision you make, you will be taking an opportunity away from a trans girl or a girl.

In my mind, trans girls can still compete at the highest levels of the sport - if they compete against individuals who went through puberty as boys. How is that not the fairest solution?

At the youth level, those cases have been handled by not worrying about who wins or loses. They have been handled by evaluating safety issues and addressing them as needed.

If you think it is "fair" to force a trans girl to play soccer with the boys of transphobic parents like you, there is no point in discussing fairness with you.

 

[dad4]

Absolutely it is a civil rights issue. You and your compadres are taking the position that private entities should not be allowed to decide who may participate in their own leagues. You believe they should be prohibited by law from allowing trans girls and women from participating solely by virtue of the fact that they are trans. That is about as fundamental a civil rights issue as there can be. Claiming this is not a civil rights issue in the same post in which you disrespectfully refer to trans girls as "dudes" and accuse them of "stealing" when they are complying with league rules only reinforces that fact.

If you want to create your own transphobic kiddie league, go for it.

Allowing XY athletes to gate crash women’s sports is your most fundamental civil rights issue?

Really? More important than preserving recognition of gay marriage, an end to workplace discrimination, and prevention of anti-gay assaults. Your number one priority is making sure Lia Thomas can compete in the women’s division instead of the men’s?

 

[dad4]

At the youth level, those cases have been handled by not worrying about who wins or loses. They have been handled by evaluating safety issues and addressing them as needed.

If you think it is "fair" to force a trans girl to play soccer with the boys of transphobic parents like you, there is no point in discussing fairness with you.

From here, it looks like the gay lobby managed to intimidate the standards bodies. Do what we say or we will call you a transphobe and pressure sponsors to drop you.

It carries no weight with me. No matter what the rest of us do, people like you are going to call people “transphobe“ 8 days a week.

 

[Grace T.]

From here, it looks like the gay lobby managed to intimidate the standards bodies. Do what we say or we will call you a transphobe and pressure sponsors to drop you.

It carries no weight with me. No matter what the rest of us do, people like you are going to call people “transphobe“ 8 days a week.

So no "trust the experts" in this case?

 

[Grace T.]

Allowing XY athletes to enter into female events is not a civil rights issue.

There are real civil rights issues for LGBTQ people. Safety and workplace discrimination are still problems. Pushing XY athletes into women’s sports just makes it more difficult to make any progress on those.

Ten years ago, the popular image of gay rights was a happy young couple kissing on their wedding. Why do you want to erase that image and replace it with a picture of a dude stealing a girl’s trophy? (Yes, a dude. Because that’s what the photo is going to look like.)

This is why you get accused of being a transphobe (even if that's not your intent, and I, for one, am willing to assume the best).

"Allowing XY athletes to enter into female events is not a civil rights issue"

Yes, it really is, because the question we are trying to answer is whether or not an action is discriminatory and when (if ever) such athlete should be allowed to enter. We are balancing the interests of the T in the LGBTQ against others, which by definition does make it a civil rights issue. I also note that you have the same issue in reverse-- forcing FTM XX athletes to play with the boys because they are on testosterone, even though they may not have the advantages of having had testosterone during puberty, but your answer there is also dump them all with the boys.

"There are real civil rights issues for LGBTQ people".

Last I heard you were cis so, given your prior argument, "who are you" to tell LGBTQ what they should and shouldn't be concerned with. Yeah yeah, lazy argument, but it's somewhat distasteful that you are implying "we accepted gay marriage so why do you have to keep pushing this stuff on us...shouldn't you be happy about gay marriage?" I note that the interests of the LGBTQ community aren't monolith either and there's plenty of discomfort between the groups. One famous joke from "Modern Family" points out the L and G probably have the least in common venn diagram wise.

"Yes, a dude. Because that's what the photo is going to look like".

This statement is probably the one most dripping in bigotry. It would surprise you to learn that back in law school I didn't want to spend my time doing stuffy law review work so I did legal aid work. My first client was a T who was being evicted because her landlord found out who she was and didn't like it (from friends that were visiting). The person transitioned fairly early in life, knew from the beginning they were T, and you could not tell for the life of you. Yes, it's quite possible the photo looks like something out of South Park. But that's not necessarily the case, and your assumption that it would be is frankly disappointing.

 

[SurFutbol]

Allowing XY athletes to gate crash women’s sports is your most fundamental civil rights issue?

Really? More important than preserving recognition of gay marriage, an end to workplace discrimination, and prevention of anti-gay assaults. Your number one priority is making sure Lia Thomas can compete in the women’s division instead of the men’s?

I did not say that. It is pretty obvious that I did say it is fundamental - meaning basic and essential - not "more important". I do understand how people like you misrepresent what words actually mean, but that is the type of bs argument that transphobes need to make to distract from their blatant transphobia.

You are also engaging in what is called moral licensing. Moral licensing is the concept of convincing yourself that your abysmal behavior isn't actually bad because you claim to support at least some good behavior. Perhaps the most common example is when someone claims the have black friends to rationalize why their racist behavior isn't racist. Here, you're at least pretending to support gay rights, sort of, to rationalize your abysmal position as to trans people. Actually, your commentary is more accurately "moral licensing by proxy", which is worse. Specifically, you can't even muster personal support for a civil rights cause. Instead, you're pointing to civil rights issues that others support to rationalize why you hate trans people so much.

Also, nice try attempting to define children as "athletes". They're children. Winning and losing a game as children just doesn't matter.

I also specifically said earlier that the NCAA rules at the time the Penn swimmer won probably weren't "fair", but you obviously know that and still ignored it. Again, this is the kind of bs argument that desperate transphobes need to do because they don't have any legitimate arguments to support their position.

 

[SurFutbol]

From here, it looks like the gay lobby managed to intimidate the standards bodies. Do what we say or we will call you a transphobe and pressure sponsors to drop you.

It carries no weight with me. No matter what the rest of us do, people like you are going to call people “transphobe“ 8 days a week.

You've made it pretty clear from the offensive manner by which you refer to trans children that you're transphobic. You and your friends have also made it very clear how important it is to have inclusive policies for trans girls in youth sports, so thank you for that.

 

[dad4]

You've made it pretty clear from the offensive manner by which you refer to trans children that you're transphobic. You and your friends have also made it very clear how important it is to have inclusive policies for trans girls in youth sports, so thank you for that.

As predicted, calling people transphobe.

As I said, it is your go-to argument. If someone thinks you are wrong, accuse them of bigotry.

 

[SurFutbol]

As predicted, calling people transphobe.

As I said, it is your go-to argument. If someone thinks you are wrong, accuse them of bigotry.

The truth is what it is. I'm a bit surprised you're pushing back on this but, then again, David Duke also denied being racist.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Ha! I love lectures about "truth" from a poster that changes "they" screen name every few months. The causes "they" support are diminished by what "they" represent. What a fraud.

 

[GLangevinito]

So far, SurFutbol and Grace's arguments have presented in no solutions other that "too bad for the natural born girls". Oh, and name calling.

I don't accept that.

The LGBT community spent a long time convincing people that people are born gay, and I wholeheartedly agree. It's exactly the opposite for trans people. They tell us that they feel like they were born the wrong sex, and there is no way to confirm these feelings, so we accept them. I'm completely fine with all this - until their feelings result in a sudden and unfair advantage that takes opportunities away from others.

If I feel like I was born the wrong race, should I be eligible for affirmative action help?

I'm all for personal freedom, you do you. But that stops when your freedom to choose negatively impacts someone else.

 

[GLangevinito]

Also, nice try attempting to define children as "athletes". They're children. Winning and losing a game as children just doesn't matter.

How are they not athletes? At what age do you start calling them athletes?

Of course the W's and the L's don't really matter. No one but you have advanced that straw man.

What matters is FAIRNESS. And competition. And opportunities. College scouts don't care about wins, but they can't evaluate a kid who is on the bench. While you are bending over backwards to try and accommodate the wishes of a trans girl to play a sport at the highest level with a biological advantage, you are pushing someone aside. That's not fair.

 

[Grace T.]

So far, SurFutbol and Grace's arguments have presented in no solutions other that "too bad for the natural born girls". Oh, and name calling.

I don't accept that.

The LGBT community spent a long time convincing people that people are born gay, and I wholeheartedly agree. It's exactly the opposite for trans people. They tell us that they feel like they were born the wrong sex, and there is no way to confirm these feelings, so we accept them. I'm completely fine with all this - until their feelings result in a sudden and unfair advantage that takes opportunities away from others.

If I feel like I was born the wrong race, should I be eligible for affirmative action help?

I'm all for personal freedom, you do you. But that stops when your freedom to choose negatively impacts someone else.

Errr…I expressly said I was willing to give dad4 the benefit of the doubt. I for one really believe we are all bigoted in some ways, no matter who we are, and have a tough time seeing or accepting that we are. It’s part of the human condition. No need to jump on each other or cancel each other. Also no reason not to call it out when it happens.

I have put forward a proposal. I think the restrictions should be on a sliding scale. Most restricted for pro national and Olympic teams. More restrictions for individual sports than team sports. Where we disagree is over whether ecnl is anything more than glorified kiddie soccer. My test is simple: if we care enough to sus out the blatant cheaters, then we can care enough to think about the trans kids. Otherwise all you are doing is singling them out, which has the neg consequences that some cis girls might also be subject to scrutiny (which again should happen only if we are also calling out the blatant cheaters). If you don’t care about the cheaters, and aren’t willing to bear the burden or inconvenience, your points about fairness are just garbage masking underlying bias.

my position is probably the most centrist here.My Schtick is I just thrive on callingout the logical inconsistencies of others particularly when they’ve taken opposite positions in other contexts. It’s fun.

 

[dad4]

Errr…I expressly said I was willing to give dad4 the benefit of the doubt. I for one really believe we are all bigoted in some ways, no matter who we are, and have a tough time seeing or accepting that we are. It’s part of the human condition. No need to jump on each other or cancel each other. Also no reason not to call it out when it happens.

I have put forward a proposal. I think the restrictions should be on a sliding scale. Most restricted for pro national and Olympic teams. More restrictions for individual sports than team sports. Where we disagree is over whether ecnl is anything more than glorified kiddie soccer. My test is simple: if we care enough to sus out the blatant cheaters, then we can care enough to think about the trans kids. Otherwise all you are doing is singling them out, which has the neg consequences that some cis girls might also be subject to scrutiny (which again should happen only if we are also calling out the blatant cheaters). If you don’t care about the cheaters, and aren’t willing to bear the burden or inconvenience, your points about fairness are just garbage masking underlying bias.

my position is probably the most centrist here.My Schtick is I just thrive on callingout the logical inconsistencies of others particularly when they’ve taken opposite positions in other contexts. It’s fun.

Someone took the opposite position in other contexts? Who????

I am pretty sure everyone on this thread is opposed to kids using performance enhancing drugs in youth soccer. Nor was anyone in favor of using fake birth certificates.

You‘re saying “If thing 1 is ok, then thing 2 must be ok, too.”. But no one said anything about thing 1 being ok.

 

[Grace T.]

Someone took the opposite position in other contexts? Who????

I am pretty sure everyone on this thread is opposed to kids using performance enhancing drugs in youth soccer. Nor was anyone in favor of using fake birth certificates.

You‘re saying “If thing 1 is ok, then thing 2 must be ok, too.”. But no one said anything about thing 1 being ok.

In your case I tweaked your nose for being so ready to accept the establishment experts in one context, but rejecting them in this context (supposedly because they were captured by the lgbtq lobby). I just found that really funny.

you and I are actually pretty close in positions in this context. Our primary differences is that I think you have some biases that you don’t realize are bigoted or intend to be harsh (but are) and you think ecnl is some glorified elite institution worthily of being treated as top of the line when it doesn’t behave that way, even when it comes to thinks like overt cheating such as through ped

 

[SurFutbol]

How are they not athletes? At what age do you start calling them athletes?

Of course the W's and the L's don't really matter. No one but you have advanced that straw man.

What matters is FAIRNESS. And competition. And opportunities. College scouts don't care about wins, but they can't evaluate a kid who is on the bench. While you are bending over backwards to try and accommodate the wishes of a trans girl to play a sport at the highest level with a biological advantage, you are pushing someone aside. That's not fair.

If a kid is on the bench to the extent that they cannot get scouted, they are not good enough to play college soccer. If a player has been "pushed aside" because a trans player took her spot, she was really "pushed aside" by 10 biological girls. You also cannot identify a single biological girl in history who has ever been denied the opportunity to play college soccer because of a trans player, because it has never happened. You just keep making up fake hysterical hypotheticals because reality is beyond your grasp. In reality, "fairness" also includes accepting that those who support trans participation have legitimate reasons, even if you believe they are outweighed by other legitimate factors. Not your bs fake ones.

 

[crush]

If a kid is on the bench to the extent that they cannot get scouted, they are not good enough to play college soccer. If a player has been "pushed aside" because a trans player took her spot, she was really "pushed aside" by 10 biological girls. You also cannot identify a single biological girl in history who has ever been denied the opportunity to play college soccer because of a trans player, because it has never happened. You just keep making up fake hysterical hypotheticals because reality is beyond your grasp. In reality, "fairness" also includes accepting that those who support trans participation have legitimate reasons, even if you believe they are outweighed by other legitimate factors. Not your bs fake ones.

Surf Futbol, you have some good takes at times but this has to be one of your worst takes ever, moo The fact that you and Grace like each other is amazing and it show two avatars can change and agree on some things. I have honest Q for you. Why do men like you want to take away any roster spot or a job away from a biological female and give that spot to a biological male, who has a mans body 100% and call that man a female and now eligible to take showers and play with the girls? This is insane with all due respect.

 

[Grace T.]

Surf Futbol, you have some good takes at times but this has to be one of your worst takes ever, moo The fact that you and Grace like each other is amazing and it show two avatars can change and agree on some things. I have honest Q for you. Why do men like you want to take away any roster spot or a job away from a biological female and give that spot to a biological male, who has a mans body 100% and call that man a female and now eligible to take showers and play with the girls? This is insane with all due respect.

You can't get away though from the fact you also have the reverse problem. Because you have FTM who eventually are ruled ineligible from playing with the girls because they are taking testosterone, which is a performance enhancing drug. Nevertheless, that FTM is a biological female. So just falling back on biology doesn't get you there.

The issue of bathrooms and showers are completely different than whether they should be allowed to play and should be decided separately (I note you also have the reverse issue there as you will eventually wind up with a FTM with ah.....equipment.....and who might very well be interested in girls....in the girls locker room if you go purely on a biological test).

 

[crush]

You can't get away though from the fact you also have the reverse problem. Because you have FTM who eventually are ruled ineligible from playing with the girls because they are taking testosterone, which is a performance enhancing drug. Nevertheless, that FTM is a biological female. So just falling back on biology doesn't get you there.

The issue of bathrooms and showers are completely different than whether they should be allowed to play and should be decided separately (I note you also have the reverse issue there as you will eventually wind up with a FTM with ah.....equipment.....and who might very well be interested in girls....in the girls locker room if you go purely on a biological test).

The fact were having a discussion about who can shower and play sports with the girls is insane. I'm sorry Grace T and this is with all due respect to your belief system and Surf Futbol beliefs ((aka The Long Game, Golden Gate, EOTL and probably a few others)) agrees with you and likes you now. I like that. When this is over we ALL need to go have a beer and have a face to face meet up. Vegas? I appreciate everyone and their positions they have on this subject and I love to debate the latest goings on in life. Right now, some men want to also be females so they can take roster spot or a actual job away from a real female. Playing dress up, wear a wig, wear cute dress and put on make up to feel like a women does not make that person a female. Because of this fact, I find the man playing dress up ineligible to shower and or play sports on the girls team against other female teams in the freaking leagues of any female league only. Thank God my dd aged out.

 

[Grace T.]

The fact were having a discussion about who can shower and play sports with the girls is insane. I'm sorry Grace T and this is with all due respect to your belief system and Surf Futbol beliefs ((aka The Long Game, Golden Gate, EOTL and probably a few others)) agrees with you and likes you now. I like that. When this is over we ALL need to go have a beer and have a face to face meet up. Vegas? I appreciate everyone and their positions they have on this subject and I love to debate the latest goings on in life. Right now, some men want to also be females so they can take roster spot or a actual job away from a real female. Playing dress up, wear a wig, wear cute dress and put on make up to feel like a women does not make that person a female. Because of this fact, I find the man playing dress up ineligible to shower and or play sports on the girls team against other female teams in the freaking leagues of any female league only. Thank God my dd aged out.

Errr....1. Showers/locker rooms are a different issue. Just because you let someone play ECNL ball doesn't necessarily follow they have to shower together. and 2. you conveniently ignore that you have the opposite issue because there are people (however rare) going the other way. If you care about you dear daughter being in the same locker room as equipment you still need to address the issue with something other than the biological test. I'm not saying there shouldn't be the rule (I wouldn't want my dear daughter to be forced to see equipment if she didn't want to), but yours doesn't get you there. sorry but 3. this sounds a lot like the talk about gay service men and how they should have been banned from the military....men and women would have to have people from the same gender looking at them in the shower....there's a bunch of solutions to it (I personally think we should implement the Starship Troopers solution.....everyone gets to see everyone else's equipment ). What lots of county and school districts have done is implement privacy changing areas and showers.

 

[espola]

Errr…I expressly said I was willing to give dad4 the benefit of the doubt. I for one really believe we are all bigoted in some ways, no matter who we are, and have a tough time seeing or accepting that we are. It’s part of the human condition. No need to jump on each other or cancel each other. Also no reason not to call it out when it happens.

I have put forward a proposal. I think the restrictions should be on a sliding scale. Most restricted for pro national and Olympic teams. More restrictions for individual sports than team sports. Where we disagree is over whether ecnl is anything more than glorified kiddie soccer. My test is simple: if we care enough to sus out the blatant cheaters, then we can care enough to think about the trans kids. Otherwise all you are doing is singling them out, which has the neg consequences that some cis girls might also be subject to scrutiny (which again should happen only if we are also calling out the blatant cheaters). If you don’t care about the cheaters, and aren’t willing to bear the burden or inconvenience, your points about fairness are just garbage masking underlying bias.

my position is probably the most centrist here.My Schtick is I just thrive on callingout the logical inconsistencies of others particularly when they’ve taken opposite positions in other contexts. It’s fun.

If you are doing it for fun, some might call that trolling.