Ok, I no problem with they/them then. My apologies on the mistake.
Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
- Start date
Ok, I no problem with they/them then. My apologies on the mistake.
GLangevinito
SILVER
No one except the Olympics requires "years of hormone therapy". The trans girl does not need to undergo ANY hormone therapy in high school to be offered a college scholarship. Just that they need their testosterone levels within a certain range during the season. This is AFTER puberty.
At least you aren't arguing that trans girls don't have an athletic advantage. That's a start.
A trans boy wanting to compete with boys at any level: FINE
A trans girl wanting to compete with girls at a rec level: FINE
A trans girl wanting to compete with girls at the highest level: NOT FINE
The argument that it doesn't happen much yet is one I often hear. Granted, it's rare. But we can't just ignore it.
whatithink
GOLD
I'd suggest that because it's so rare, we pretty much can (& most people do) ignore it. Given your delineation of when a trans girl can play, this seems to be less about them playing and more about whether they may take a scholarship from your DD - very NIMBY attitude as far as I can see.
From my perspective, my kids (both genders) will get a scholarship or not, but they'll go to a college for an education, and it'll be picked based on that, not based on any sports program. In the here & now, I really don't care about my kids W/L ratio and/or whether the team that just beat my DDs team has one or more trans girls; they are kids play youth soccer.
GLangevinito
SILVER
You accuse me of forming an opinion based on my family situation when you know nothing about it, and then declare you don't care because your kids will not get athletic scholarships? Ok.
All we should care about is athletic equality, and like it or not, going through puberty as a male gives you an advantage.
All good until…….
www.nationalreview.com
Female High-School Volleyball Athlete Suffers Serious Head Injury after Transgender Player Spikes ‘Abnormally Fast’ Ball | National Review
She is still recovering from long-term concussion symptoms, including problems with her vision.
www.nationalreview.com
The problem though is that once you establish a rule banning trans athletes you have to establish a protocol for catching rule breakers and challenging kids may not meet the test (particularly in California where you can get your birth certificate changed relatively easily even to neutral).
If you truly care about "advantages", then presumably you care enough as well to catch the steroid cheaters, however rare that may be, and would advocate for youth soccer to start implementing some doping protocols (especially since both problems are essentially linked to testosterone). If it's important enough to exclude the trans kids, it's certainly important enough to catch the cheaters.
100%All good until…….
Female High-School Volleyball Athlete Suffers Serious Head Injury after Transgender Player Spikes ‘Abnormally Fast’ Ball | National Review
She is still recovering from long-term concussion symptoms, including problems with her vision.
We don't drug test youth soccer players but we do ban it. So according to your logic, we should stick with the same application. I agree let's ban trans M2F from competing in high level sports, but don't check their hormone level and go with the honesty method unless there is substantial evidence that requires testing.
In college and professional sports, there is drug testing so colleges and professionals can test for all M2F issues too.
There is no such thing as "equality" in sports, at least in the way you present your argument. All sports are biased to favor inborn characteristics as opposed to those you can practice or develop. Watch any soccer game with kids aged 11-15. Some are significantly taller and physically more mature than others. At the college level, the average PAC-12 womens' soccer player is almost 5'8", which puts her at about the 90th percentile for height. Some runners have a gene which allows them to process oxygen slightly more efficiently. Quarterbacks usually have huge hands. Yet nobody complains about these genetic and hormonal advantages.
Then there are medically-created athletic advantages. In youth soccer, I am aware of a number of players who underwent hormone therapies to grow taller, as did Lionel Messi. In baseball, pitchers get Tommy John surgery, which makes their elbows stronger than they could naturally achieve, while batters get eye surgery to help them see pitches better. Yet nobody complains about these medically-created advantages.
As to whether "going to puberty as a male" gives a male-to-female transgender athlete an advantage, you may be correct. So what? We already countenance genetic, hormonal and man-made advantages in sports. Why draw the line at transgender.
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While every athlete can undergo vision correction, most athletes are not allowed hormone therapy unless there is health logic to do so. Lionel Messi's hormone therapy was to help with a medical condition he had and it didn't give him an unfair advantage against other athletes, it was going to help his body create the hormones it naturally would have created if he wasn't sick.
With M2F, you're asking elite sports to ignore the highest forms of unfair advantages and that's not going to happen.
For everyone who says this is not a problem bc how the minute numbers of trans, then please recognize that even with such a minute number of trans, it has already affected women's sports. M2F athletes already have created issues in the following sports: biker, swimmer, volleyball, basketball, runner, etc.
That's a lot for such a small group of people. So imagine when the M2F surgeries in the next generation increase, how much more issues will it cause?
If you read my prior posts, I'm in favor of a college/professional ban, particularly in individual sports, since the stakes are high enough to do drug testing (though I'd be open to an argument for x number of years post-surgery).
The problem with the logic you lay out lies in the words "substantial evidence". It's where it self-evidently stumbles all over itself. The fact you even had to use those words shows the problem with your argument.
1. There is no such standard for drug testing in youth soccer. At least with respect to the MLS Next rules, I don't see anywhere in either the rules or player conduct where protocols for performance enhancing drugs are laid out or even an outright prohibition....there's a lose policy in the code of conduct for drugs and alcohol....if I'm wrong happy to have you correct me and spell it out where exactly the protocols appear. I see, however, that in black and white the standards for discriminatory and bigoted conduct are laid out, gambling on your game, and putting the MLS in ill repute.
2. If it's a hormone test, then you are back to square 1 with the cheaters since steroids are essentially hormone based (testosterone is a performance enhancing drug). There is no effective difference so you have to answer then what would trigger your "substantial evidence" standard in both cases.
3. otherwise what you are left with is presenting the correct birth certificate, which as we've established, in California is easy to get around
With M2F, you're asking elite sports to ignore the highest forms of unfair advantages and that's not going to happen.
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This is not a correct statement. The highest form of unfair advantage would be performance enhancing drugs which at least in youth soccer we DO NOT go after. The next highest form of unfair advantage is the falsified birth certificates, which while there is a velvet rope there, as seen by former ads on this site for false papers and given anecdotally how many there are floating around out there, we police laughably when it comes to youth soccer, particularly now post-COVID when originals of the papers don't even need to be submitted.
This is not a correct statement. The highest form of unfair advantage would be performance enhancing drugs which at least in youth soccer we DO NOT go after. The next highest form of unfair advantage is the falsified birth certificates, which while there is a velvet rope there, as seen by former ads on this site for false papers and given anecdotally how many there are floating around out there, we police laughably when it comes to youth soccer, particularly now post-COVID when originals of the papers don't even need to be submitted.
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What do you think M2F? It's performance enhancing drugs on steroids.
I used your words and your logic to explain it to you but now you're arguing against yourself too.
What do you think M2F? It's performance enhancing drugs on steroids.
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Yes, so if you think MLS Next and ECNL soccer are important enough to put in place drug protocols, then I'd be more open to the argument that MTF should be banned using similar protocols. Otherwise you are just picking on the trans kids but ignoring the outright cheaters. If so then an unfair advantage is not really your concern but something else....
Nope. Your argument fell apart when you used the words "substantial evidence". It's a cheat. You used those words as a logical short cut to try and avoid some heavy lifting that might put you in a bad place. My argument is all about "o.k. if you are concerned about advantages, but then be consistent" even if it might inconvenience you and yours such as by having to get and pay for periodic labs. E.g., what is the "substantial evidence" you had in mind....a girl that looks butch enough she might have been born a boy?....same standard for a girl with drug testing....pull out the girl and have her tested because she's athletic enough she might be using testosterone? Like this?
Utah school secretly investigated if winning female student athlete is transgender
An athletics association scrutinized the winner’s records after parents of two girls who lost the competition complained
www.theguardian.com
GLangevinito
SILVER
Your argument is that because there are other forms of cheating we should ignore this one?
We have procedures to verify birth certificates. Registrars take a whole class on it.
Innate physical advantages can't be controlled for (except in sports like wrestling and weightlifting).
Steroids are illegal and expensive. And we lack cheap testing methods at the youth level. If we had a $5 test I would support testing after allegations are made.
What separates this form of cheating from the other ones, though, is that they merely need to say five words to gain an immediate physical advantage: "I identify as a girl".
whatithink
GOLD
ah, bless, and yet I didn't say that! Relax, they are just kids playing soccer.
No, my argument is that unless you are going to not ignore the blatant forms of cheating (which youth soccer is literally doing nothing about), you can't pick on the trans kid (who unlike the kids taking steroids have objectives other than plain cheating...no one is declaring they want to identify as a girl just to play on a girls team...that's just false fear mongering)
You also exaggerate the amount the steroids cost (and no, they are not "illegal" in the same way heroine is....it's illegal for a doctor to prescribe them for purposes such as athletic advantage, but that hasn't stopped a ton of them from prescribing opioids to addicts, and it makes your argument worse because you are turning a blind eye to conduct you think is illegal but punishing conduct the state has deemed not only legal but acceptable).
Finally, if you think the standard should be greater than "I identify as a girl" that would be a fair argument in my book. For example, requiring hormonal treatment or actually living as a girl or getting a birth certificate (which as we've established in California is relatively easy to change). But that's not your argument which makes the point facetious. You are looking for a ban.
whatithink
GOLD
Relative age effect is a real thing, US soccer delved into it a few years back, although they may have moved on from it now - idk. So, you can manage innate physical advantages early and then reset when they level out ... but nobody does that I'm aware of.
Kids that mature early or are older (in a given year) generally dominate at the elite level, i.e. get on the teams at the beginning and then stay there more often than not. There are books that have been written about it, empirically demonstrating it across multiple sports.
So if you want an "issue" in youth sports that is disadvantaging a very large number of participants, then this is a far better hill for you to pick.
GLangevinito
SILVER
What on Earth. You are all over the place.
Going through male puberty and then declaring you will compete against females in athletics is cheating. Full stop. You argue we should allow it. I do not agree.
I am NOT looking for a ban. I have never said that. In fact, I have said the opposite. If trans girls want to play sports, fine. Just not at the highest level where their advantages could strip girls of opportunities and scholarships.
GLangevinito
SILVER
Being born with a physical advantage is NOT the same as declaring you deserve a physical advantage after puberty.
No one can control when they were born. No one can control if their parents were athletes.
But any male high school athlete, right now, can gain an enormous athletic advantage instantly by speaking those 5 words. And sports is a zero sum game.