Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[whatithink]

Innate physical advantages can't be controlled for (except in sports like wrestling and weightlifting).

Relative age effect is a real thing, US soccer delved into it a few years back, although they may have moved on from it now - idk. So, you can manage innate physical advantages early and then reset when they level out ... but nobody does that I'm aware of.

Kids that mature early or are older (in a given year) generally dominate at the elite level, i.e. get on the teams at the beginning and then stay there more often than not. There are books that have been written about it, empirically demonstrating it across multiple sports.

So if you want an "issue" in youth sports that is disadvantaging a very large number of participants, then this is a far better hill for you to pick.

 

[GLangevinito]

No, my argument is that unless you are going to not ignore the blatant forms of cheating (which youth soccer is literally doing nothing about), you can't pick on the trans kid (who unlike the kids taking steroids have objectives other than plain cheating...no one is declaring they want to identify as a girl just to play on a girls team...that's just false fear mongering)

You also exaggerate the amount the steroids cost (and no, they are not "illegal" in the same way heroine is....it's illegal for a doctor to prescribe them for purposes such as athletic advantage, but that hasn't stopped a ton of them from prescribing opioids to addicts, and it makes your argument worse because you are turning a blind eye to conduct you think is illegal but punishing conduct the state has deemed not only legal but acceptable).

Finally, if you think the standard should be greater than "I identify as a girl" that would be a fair argument in my book. For example, requiring hormonal treatment or actually living as a girl or getting a birth certificate (which as we've established in California is relatively easy to change). But that's not your argument which makes the point facetious. You are looking for a ban.

What on Earth. You are all over the place.

Going through male puberty and then declaring you will compete against females in athletics is cheating. Full stop. You argue we should allow it. I do not agree.

I am NOT looking for a ban. I have never said that. In fact, I have said the opposite. If trans girls want to play sports, fine. Just not at the highest level where their advantages could strip girls of opportunities and scholarships.

 

[GLangevinito]

Relative age effect is a real thing, US soccer delved into it a few years back, although they may have moved on from it now - idk. So, you can manage innate physical advantages early and then reset when they level out ... but nobody does that I'm aware of.

Kids that mature early or are older (in a given year) generally dominate at the elite level, i.e. get on the teams at the beginning and then stay there more often than not. There are books that have been written about it, empirically demonstrating it across multiple sports.

So if you want an "issue" in youth sports that is disadvantaging a very large number of participants, then this is a far better hill for you to pick.

Being born with a physical advantage is NOT the same as declaring you deserve a physical advantage after puberty.

No one can control when they were born. No one can control if their parents were athletes.

But any male high school athlete, right now, can gain an enormous athletic advantage instantly by speaking those 5 words. And sports is a zero sum game.

 

[Grace T.]

What on Earth. You are all over the place.

Going through male puberty and then declaring you will compete against females in athletics is cheating. Full stop. You argue we should allow it. I do not agree.

I am NOT looking for a ban. I have never said that. In fact, I have said the opposite. If trans girls want to play sports, fine. Just not at the highest level where their advantages could strip girls of opportunities and scholarships.

It's funny that you think ECNL is the "highest levels". It's just glorified kiddie soccer for which we don't even care enough to do drug testing.

If I'm all over the place it's because I'm playing whack a mole with your arguments which are entirely inconsistent and turning you around into a pretzel. Like I said, I'm open to restrictions, but I think they need to be applied equitably across all concerns....not just because we don't like the trans kids. Where are you all over the place in your arguments? Well, now you trotted out the word cheating. That's an argument fallacy. You can't argue something is cheating because it's cheating. That's the classic circular argument. The entire argument we are having is over what should and shouldn't be considered "cheating" (which you are giving the blatant steroid cheaters a pass but going after those who are engaged in an otherwise legal activity).

 

[Grace T.]

It's funny that you think ECNL is the "highest levels". It's just glorified kiddie soccer for which we don't even care enough to do drug testing.

If I'm all over the place it's because I'm playing whack a mole with your arguments which are entirely inconsistent and turning you around into a pretzel. Like I said, I'm open to restrictions, but I think they need to be applied equitably across all concerns....not just because we don't like the trans kids. Where are you all over the place in your arguments? Well, now you trotted out the word cheating. That's an argument fallacy. You can't argue something is cheating because it's cheating. That's the classic circular argument. The entire argument we are having is over what should and shouldn't be considered "cheating" (which you are giving the blatant steroid cheaters a pass but going after those who are engaged in an otherwise legal activity).

p.s. Here's an example of a consistent policy: 1) steroids are banned and you have to sign the code of conduct banning them. But if suspicion of you taking elicit drugs is raised we'll ignore it since there's no investigation mechanism, 2) you must play under the birth certificate of your assigned gender (which in California we know is easy to alter and you'll have to figure out what to do with the nonbinaries). But if suspicion of you being a different gender than your birth certificate is raised, we'll ignore it since there's no investigation mechanism, 3) you must play in the correct birth age as verified by your birth certificate (but we aren't going to do anything about the counterfeit records and registrars that might turn a loose eye, and if there is suspicion of you not being the correct age we'll ignore it). Velvet ropes for all. Where you got in trouble was your "substantial evidence" since it would subject any girl that can be said to be "butch" or "athletic" and performs well to a random drug or gender test.

 

[GLangevinito]

It's funny that you think ECNL is the "highest levels". It's just glorified kiddie soccer for which we don't even care enough to do drug testing.

If I'm all over the place it's because I'm playing whack a mole with your arguments which are entirely inconsistent and turning you around into a pretzel. Like I said, I'm open to restrictions, but I think they need to be applied equitably across all concerns....not just because we don't like the trans kids. Where are you all over the place in your arguments? Well, now you trotted out the word cheating. That's an argument fallacy. You can't argue something is cheating because it's cheating. That's the classic circular argument. The entire argument we are having is over what should and shouldn't be considered "cheating" (which you are giving the blatant steroid cheaters a pass but going after those who are engaged in an otherwise legal activity).

I don't give any cheaters passes. Trans girls, steroid cheats, birth certificate forgers, whatever.

 

[Grace T.]

I don't give any cheaters passes. Trans girls, steroid cheats, birth certificate forgers, whatever.

Yes you are, because you are advocating a "substantial evidence" standard for the trans girl (you o.k. for example with what happened in the Utah article?) but giving a velvet rope for steroid cheats and birth certificate forgers. What not giving a pass would be is either velvet ropes for everyone, random testing for everyone, mandatory testing for everyone, or testing on accusation for everyone. But what you are doing is singling out the trans kid because it particularly offends you (wonder why?) and you think it's easy to catch, but turning a blind eye to everything else that might impact you personally (e.g., paying for drug testing). There's words for that and they begin with the initials "W.H." If that's your position, I oppose such actions on principle, whether they are Spanish moriscos, puritan noncomformists or trans kids.

 

[MARsSPEED]

In reply to Sockma:

I don't accept any part of your argument. Yes, every athlete "can undergo vision correction," but that is an inconsistent argument, because every athlete can also become transgender. You do not even bother to address genetic advantages such as height, or hormonal advantages such as early puberty.

Your argument that transgender athletes create "the highest form of unfair advantages" is hyperbolic to say the least. Brittany Griner playing women who are 5'4" or less in a basketball game is definitely a "higher" form of an unfair advantage. Do you think that she would be in the WNBA if she did not have such extraordinary height?

Brittney Griner? That’s a man baby!

 

[crush]

Brittney Griner? That’s a man baby!

WTF? Dom, is this one of those photo shops?

 

[kickingandscreaming]

As to whether "going to puberty as a male" gives a male-to-female transgender athlete an advantage, you may be correct. So what? We already countenance genetic, hormonal and man-made advantages in sports. Why draw the line at transgender?

The logical end of this line of thinking and most of the "if I say I'm a women/girl, I should be able to compete in sports with women/girls" crowd is that there is no men's soccer or women's soccer (pick your sport) - just soccer. That certainly solves the problem. However, the overwhelming evidence is that the separation of male and female sports does even the playing field for those who menstruate (women).

I did laugh when I read this.

--
As to whether "going to puberty as a male" gives a male-to-female transgender athlete an advantage, you may be correct. So what?
--

It reminded me of this.

 

[MARsSPEED]

So, say Trans are banned from playing the sport of whatever they are transitioning to. That extremely small amount of people have they’re feelings hurt but can still play with their original sex.

Now say we allow all trans to play as whatever sex they desire, still a very small percentage of people, however, the amount of young girls and ladies that are affected, whether by coming in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, locker room trauma, and other psychological factors, far outnumbers those who decided to transition.

On top of this, if we do allow, we are also excusing science and the physical advantages MTF persons have and that is not a debate.

Look, we do not allow PEDs in any sport and for good reason. Male genetics are performance enhancing over women, end of story. Bigger heart, lungs and bone structure. Hormones aren’t going to change that. I don’t know why anyone thinks these persons should be given a free pass.

This subject is strictly about “feelings” and nothing about science. People who support this thinking are choosing to put feelings over facts which is yet another dangerous precedent.

For those who want to mention Birth Certificates in the same category or drug testing, totally different subjects and not parallel. All a parent can do is accuse a family of lying about age or sex to higher ups. After that, it is on those higher ups, and how much they want to push who are then at the mercy of some government employee who probably does not want to do their job. So in the end, the accuser is actually powerless.

Moving on to girls using PEDs, really? With the population of Trans being very small, I would wager girls using steriods who are not in transition, much small than the Trans community. Not only that, the girl would have obvious properties and the parents would be risking arrest for child abuse. Funny how that is considered child abuse yet parents who allow their girls to get private parts cut off, are not. Anyway.

Do MTF have any advantage over biological females?
Yes. 100% absolute and proven by science.

Do FTM using hormone treatments have any advantage over biological females?
Yes. 100% absolutely and proven by science.

If we want to make this political and talk about equality then either of the above are not equal to biological females and have a proven advantage.

 

[Grace T.]

So, say Trans are banned from playing the sport of whatever they are transitioning to. That extremely small amount of people have they’re feelings hurt but can still play with their original sex.

Now say we allow all trans to play as whatever sex they desire, still a very small percentage of people, however, the amount of young girls and ladies that are affected, whether by coming in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, locker room trauma, and other psychological factors, far outnumbers those who decided to transition.

On top of this, if we do allow, we are also excusing science and the physical advantages MTF persons have and that is not a debate.

Look, we do not allow PEDs in any sport and for good reason. Male genetics are performance enhancing over women, end of story. Bigger heart, lungs and bone structure. Hormones aren’t going to change that. I don’t know why anyone thinks these persons should be given a free pass.

This subject is strictly about “feelings” and nothing about science. People who support this thinking are choosing to put feelings over facts which is yet another dangerous precedent.

For those who want to mention Birth Certificates in the same category or drug testing, totally different subjects and not parallel. All a parent can do is accuse a family of lying about age or sex to higher ups. After that, it is on those higher ups, and how much they want to push who are then at the mercy of some government employee who probably does not want to do their job. So in the end, the accuser is actually powerless.

Moving on to girls using PEDs, really? With the population of Trans being very small, I would wager girls using steriods who are not in transition, much small than the Trans community. Not only that, the girl would have obvious properties and the parents would be risking arrest for child abuse. Funny how that is considered child abuse yet parents who allow their girls to get private parts cut off, are not. Anyway.

Do MTF have any advantage over biological females?
Yes. 100% absolute and proven by science.

Do FTM using hormone treatments have any advantage over biological females?
Yes. 100% absolutely and proven by science.

If we want to make this political and talk about equality then either of the above are not equal to biological females and have a proven advantage.

My objection to this is your statement that we do not allow peds in sports. We do…just not at the levels that are drug tested…most youth sports are not covered. I was at a party with certain gridiron football parents over the holidays and am actually shocked at how widespread they are. While certainly not every athlete or maybe even the majority of boys, the stories were certainly shocking and I venture to say that it’s more than rare.

 

[dad4]

No one is saying we should an anyone from sports.

At most, people are arguing that high end girls sports should be reserved for XX people, and that XY people should play boys, coed, or rec.

 

[Grace T.]

No one is saying we should an anyone from sports.

At most, people are arguing that high end girls sports should be reserved for XX people, and that XY people should play boys, coed, or rec.

I think part of the problem we are having is what is a high end sport. Some people seem to be under the impression ecnl or non academy mls ball is high end. It’s not. If it’s not important enough to drug test it’s not high end

 

[Carlsbad7]

I think part of the problem we are having is what is a high end sport. Some people seem to be under the impression ecnl or non academy mls ball is high end. It’s not. If it’s not important enough to drug test it’s not high end

Agree x1000% until I can bet on the game it's not high end. ;-)

 

[MARsSPEED]

I don’t care what end. Create more Co-ed opportunities. The funny thing about that is that ot will just backfire. For anyone who has participated in co-ed sports, you know there is a certain regulation for how many females must play and be on a team. You know why? Because males teams made with only one female dominate the teams that have five or six females.

Stop trying to break things that aren’t broken for the sake of peoples feelings. Understand the consequences and to why there are consequences to actions.

“You want to transition? Ok, just know that you will not be able to play in girls sports BECAUSE YOU WERE BORN A MALE. Sorry but you can’t change that. You will have to continue playing with the boys. Why? Because it is the wrong choice based on everything we know about science, even if your as coordinated as a baby giraffe. Sorry, but these are the unfortunate facts. Your choice. You will have many many more choices like this in your future, many of those will likely hurt your feelings even more. So please get used to it now. As you know, you live in this world and THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOU AND YOUR DECISIONS. It would be selfish for you to believe that and I would be a horrible parent for letting you believe that.”

Deal with it.

 

[Grace T.]

I don’t care what end. Create more Co-ed opportunities. The funny thing about that is that ot will just backfire. For anyone who has participated in co-ed sports, you know there is a certain regulation for how many females must play and be on a team. You know why? Because males teams made with only one female dominate the teams that have five or six females.

Stop trying to break things that aren’t broken for the sake of peoples feelings. Understand the consequences and to why there are consequences to actions.

“You want to transition? Ok, just know that you will not be able to play in girls sports BECAUSE YOU WERE BORN A MALE. Sorry but you can’t change that. You will have to continue playing with the boys. Why? Because it is the wrong choice based on everything we know about science, even if your as coordinated as a baby giraffe. Sorry, but these are the unfortunate facts. Your choice. You will have many many more choices like this in your future, many of those will likely hurt your feelings even more. So please get used to it now. As you know, you live in this world and THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOU AND YOUR DECISIONS. It would be selfish for you to believe that and I would be a horrible parent for letting you believe that.”

Deal with it.

You make a lot of really good points and it’s probably one of the better arguments I’ve heard (focused on personal choices but it still doesn’t address the cheating issue on which it still fails). I do, however, point out that it’s funny, given what side you were on the debate on another issue, that you fall back on the science (as in that argument there is a lot of disagreement in a situation for which there are no good solutions). The selfish point also made me chuckle. The argument only works if the science really is settled on what’s the best treatment in a particular situation (which it isn’t)

 

[dad4]

I think part of the problem we are having is what is a high end sport. Some people seem to be under the impression ecnl or non academy mls ball is high end. It’s not. If it’s not important enough to drug test it’s not high end

By “high end”, I mean the top level for that age group.

So, within U15 soccer, ECNL is high end for girls.

If there is some other term you prefer, use that. I am simply referring to whether it is one of the top divisions for that sport and that age group.

 

[espola]

I don’t care what end. Create more Co-ed opportunities. The funny thing about that is that ot will just backfire. For anyone who has participated in co-ed sports, you know there is a certain regulation for how many females must play and be on a team. You know why? Because males teams made with only one female dominate the teams that have five or six females.

Stop trying to break things that aren’t broken for the sake of peoples feelings. Understand the consequences and to why there are consequences to actions.

“You want to transition? Ok, just know that you will not be able to play in girls sports BECAUSE YOU WERE BORN A MALE. Sorry but you can’t change that. You will have to continue playing with the boys. Why? Because it is the wrong choice based on everything we know about science, even if your as coordinated as a baby giraffe. Sorry, but these are the unfortunate facts. Your choice. You will have many many more choices like this in your future, many of those will likely hurt your feelings even more. So please get used to it now. As you know, you live in this world and THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOU AND YOUR DECISIONS. It would be selfish for you to believe that and I would be a horrible parent for letting you believe that.”

Deal with it.

A problem with absolute rules is that it does not allow consideration of special cases. Some people are born with unusual genetics or developmental malformations that make the determination of gender difficult at birth. I believe this has been covered already in this or a similar thread so I won't bother with repetition.

 

[Grace T.]

By “high end”, I mean the top level for that age group.

So, within U15 soccer, ECNL is high end for girls.

If there is some other term you prefer, use that. I am simply referring to whether it is one of the top divisions for that sport and that age group.

Just because something is the top group doesn’t make it high end or worthy of high end treatment. Given all the complaints on these forums of the mixed level of play at ecnl it’s not ecnl. If the girls were to develop a true academy system geared at producing Uswnt players and pro athletes I’d be more open to the argument. But as it stands right now ecnl is just glorified kiddie ball.