What a bunch of crap....someday that kid is gonna have to get questioned on his/her decisions....questioning tactfully is not abuse. Nobody is advocating yelling at the kid. so as a coach do I tell my team, "sorry that ref made a couple bad calls and messed up your attempt at the goal, but his confidence and development is way more important than yours." That is why colleges now have had to double their counseling staffs because professors hold students accountable and they cant handle it. I wonder is that is how his teachers treat him, "its OK that you didn't study for this test and screwed up many answers, I am gonna tell u good job and give you an A for effort anyway......wow.
SoCal Soccer Attitude Change
- Thread starter Sentient Being
- Start date
Surfref
PREMIER
We don't have to agree, but the coach and spectators do need to follow the Cal South policy and ethics guidance. Those are the rules that I have to enforce and coaches must follow.
baldref
GOLD
Too many coaches questioning the 13 year old and he never makes it to the next year. Thays an asinine argument.
Perhaps he/she shouldn't. My DD did tryouts for a couple teams and didn't make the cut. Should they have taken her even though she wasn't doing a good enough job? She didn't quit though, worked hard and came back the next year and made the team. A youth ref couldnt do that?
baldref
GOLD
Why would they? It's not a spot on a team. There aren't many kids who yearn to referee. It's very difficult to get the younger kids to stick with it. And going back to my question from many posts ago..... What does a U8 coach have to gain from questioning a 13 year old center? Since all you coaches are afraid to answer let me help you. Absolutely nothing. It's reflex. It means nothing. Are you working that kid to get the next call like in a high level older match? Or are you setting a poor example for the players, letting them know it's ok to question the ref on a throw in at the mid line? Even if it makes no difference. At U8, teach them to play, to argue, not dive, not question calls, not act up. It gets that coach nothing. It hurts that youth ref. Wide up
coachrefparent
GOLD
Of course you are right. Cal South, Presidio and other leagues nationwide all have it wrong. If only they had your insight; If only they would listen to you. Idiots, all of them.
Where is the CalSouth rule that prohibits anyone from talking to a youth ref? Or is it one of your "rules of thumb?" Speaking of which, you still haven't answered where in LOTG is "referee credibility" mentioned? And where in LOTG is the cap on the number of fouls can AR call?
coachrefparent
GOLD
From Cal South Code of Conduct:
"In addition, each Coach will ensure that his/her conduct sets a good example for team members and spectators. To meet these responsibilities, the Coach is expected to:
[...]
• Respect the game officials at all times. Refrain from questioning their decisions or challenging their authority.
Every player is expected to:
[...]
• Respect the game officials and refrain from addressing them or commenting on their
decisions during or after the game.
The parents' role is one of support to the players and coaches. Parents should not engage in "coaching" from the sidelines, criticizing players, coaches or game officials or trying to influence the makeup of the team at any time. Every parent and spectator is expected to:
[...]
• Respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions
Surfref claims that Calsouth and all leagues have guidelines specific to youth referees.
coachrefparent
GOLD
These are from Cal South, and apply to all game officials. So I guess he's being generous, as are all referees for putting up with the violation of these rules in every match. I know I'm guilty on occasion as a parent or coach, and I appreciate the discretion.
All local leagues from AYSO on upto the highest competitive circuit all consistently state that there is zero tolerance for questioning decisions, or challenging the authority of youth referees, whether you agree with that or not. The reality, as opposed to these fictional hypotheticals, is that no coach is going to be sent off if they have a calm, rational, discreet question to a youth referee. But we all know that's not the "problem" being discussed here.
I would agree with what you are saying, noting though that Cal south is looking out for its own interests first, not the interests of the players/coaches/parents. The code of conduct refers to officials but does not include them with specific guidelines as it does for the players, coaches and parents. I assume the officials are governed by a different code of conduct?? I have no issues with officials who come and call the game as they see it. There is always going to be calls that can go either way and depending on what team you are rooting for you are going to be biased toward the call. My issue is with officials who feel like they have some obligation to officiate the manners, etiquette, and demeanor of the fans...We tend to forget that if the soccer community desires for the sport to continue to grow it cannot only cater to parents who are bound by the Cal South agreements they have to sign to allow their kids to play. what a bout just a fan? Can't I as a member of the community got see the local team play? What if i get loud and offend the ref? Threatening me with removal from the game has a whole lot less effect that it does with a parent. That is where I think that the refs need to analyze if the "abuse" they feel they may be receiving is worth stopping the game and getting confrontational. From the games I have attended in other countries whose spectators were more than just parents, I consider American fans to be somewhat calm. We don't riot when our local club loses or wins.
baldref
GOLD
what if the games on mars allow fans to shoot the referees with ray guns? that makes it ok in America and therefor calsouth? your argument is moot. this is where it is and what it is. and if a fan, not a parent, is abusive, then they will be asked to leave. if they don't, the game will be stopped until such time the proper authorities are called and they are removed. pretty simple and i don't understand any argument against it. if any adult, is ruining a game played by younger people, they are wrong. period. coach. parent. whomever.
And this is the knuckle head answer I would expect from a ref like you , not logical, not based on any type of actual regulation, just because the "authority vested in you" by the soccer gods. Just because you have donned the striped shirt, cheesy black shorts and socks pulled up to your waist and been ordained with a golden whistle and a couple of colored cards you must be the smartest guy on the field.....thats what they told you in ref school anyway....keep dreaming.
baldref
GOLD
Genius answer
When people are over matched they insult and call names. Good luck to you.
coachrefparent
GOLD
You ask a lot of questions, but provide no answers. You seem to imply that some unaffiliated 3rd party fan (as if this exists at a youth soccer game), should be given more leeway to criticize the referees than the participants. That's crazy.
wildcat66, you really disagree with this? Of course anyone being abusive should be sent away. This is true at any youth event.
For me it is the definition of "abusive" I have said before i attend many sporting events and have rarely seen referees concern themselves with crowd, snide comments, or spectator noise, except in soccer. On Friday i was at the local football game and it happened to be homecoming for the local high school. The game was close and toward the end there was quite a few penalties which were all judgement calls. Of course depending on which way the call went the crowd was either for it or against it. There were a number of boos, come on Refs, etc etc coming from both sides...the coaches both came a little unglued as well. did the refs stop the game and caution the coach? NO. Did the ref engage anyone of the spectators about there comments? NO. They never even turned around and looked at the crowd. They just reffed the game and called them as they saw them....Eere they wrong in not giving everyone a lecture in proper sportsmanship and etiquette I guess by some people's standard they didn't do thier job. I feel that they just blocked it out and by doing so the game progressed without any problems.
baldref
GOLD
uhh, thought we were talking about referee abuse. Are you saying that by comparing soccer referees to football referees, I am not on the topic? All I am saying is that the refs would be better off if they just blocked out the crowd, coaches, etc and concentrated on the players and game. I get that the leagues have tasked you with being some sort of sportsmanship judge as well which is crazy in my book. If they want quiet, low energy crowds who only cheer positive reinforcing comments they need to supply crowd police or something.
coachrefparent
GOLD
At least you are starting to acknowledge that the leagues make the rules, not you. As noted, the rules are not the same nor are the environments.
High school football games are attended by thousands of people who are 20-50 yards from the officials. Individual jack-a$$es are mostly drowned out by the crowd. There is cheering, booing and comments flung around, but more of an overall drone from the fans.
Contrast this with a few dozen spectators aside. Located within feet (sometimes inches) from the officials. A completely different environment. According to your argument, fans should be able to yell at players during a round of competitive golf because they do at hockey and football games.
Even so, I've seen spectators ejected from high school sports of all kinds, the Ryder cup, MLB baseball, NFL, and even youth FNL football. And every last one of them felt they had a "right" to be a buffoon, the rules were too strict, and blamed the officials.
I agree that refs should be trained to block off crowd just like in the Europe, but as i learned reading posts from the local refs on this board training and rules prohibit them...community needs to put pressure on Cal South and other soccer governing bodies if they want change...in my opinion, lack of football culture dictates these rules, its hards to develop passionate support culture if officials have authority to expell sidelines in kids games...i wonder how many of these ref posting here visited youth or adult games in European countries and whats their opinion of crowds and their style of support?
baldref
GOLD
Once again, we're not in Europe.