SoCal Soccer Attitude Change

Laced said:
Juvenile. Accusing me being one of the sideline idiots doesn't change the fact you made false claims.

Ultimately, the game belongs to the kids. It's their show. Not mine. Nor yours. But in the so many cute little stories you like to tell, you're usually the white knight. The main character. Never mind it's against referee ethics to talk about games. You want to "educate" us parents, as if LOTG is some mysterious document only you, with an entry-level license, can understand. As if working at MacDonald makes you a chef. You make up "rules of thumb" as if you don't have to work "within the framework" of LOTG. Don't want to get exposed? Simple. Don't pretend to be an authority on something you have a cursory understanding of. Don't cite rules that don't exist. You may or may not be an adequate youth referee. An authority on LOTG? Hardly.
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Are you a referee? Do you know any referees for soccer? I have read the laws of the game several times, but I am not a referee. I am just a parent (but not JAP). I do however video every game my kids play in. This means I have watched every game at least twice and the second time I have the ability to replay and go frame by frame. I have seen many referee mistakes, but I have also found that for calls that the sideline disputes, referees more often than not make the correct call. This makes sense since they are usually closer to the game and have been trained. Having said that, the following is just my opinion, albeit a well informed opinion.

While I don't know the details, I do know that SurfRef has years of referee experience, including some international experience. I would rank SurfRef in the top dozen or so of all the referees I have seen at the youth level. I don't know who BaldRef or JAP are, so I cannot comment on their referee skills.
 
outside! said:
Are you a referee? Do you know any referees for soccer? I have read the laws of the game several times, but I am not a referee. I am just a parent (but not JAP). I do however video every game my kids play in. This means I have watched every game at least twice and the second time I have the ability to replay and go frame by frame. I have seen many referee mistakes, but I have also found that for calls that the sideline disputes, referees more often than not make the correct call. This makes sense since they are usually closer to the game and have been trained. Having said that, the following is just my opinion, albeit a well informed opinion.

While I don't know the details, I do know that SurfRef has years of referee experience, including some international experience. I would rank SurfRef in the top dozen or so of all the referees I have seen at the youth level. I don't know who BaldRef or JAP are, so I cannot comment on their referee skills.
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Agree with majority of what you have said, however, the fact that you record your kids games is somewhat troubling.
 
outside! said:
Are you a referee? Do you know any referees for soccer? I have read the laws of the game several times, but I am not a referee. I am just a parent (but not JAP). I do however video every game my kids play in. This means I have watched every game at least twice and the second time I have the ability to replay and go frame by frame. I have seen many referee mistakes, but I have also found that for calls that the sideline disputes, referees more often than not make the correct call. This makes sense since they are usually closer to the game and have been trained. Having said that, the following is just my opinion, albeit a well informed opinion.

While I don't know the details, I do know that SurfRef has years of referee experience, including some international experience. I would rank SurfRef in the top dozen or so of all the referees I have seen at the youth level. I don't know who BaldRef or JAP are, so I cannot comment on their referee skills.
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How are sideline disputes, or his competence or experience at youth-level games relevant to the non-existing rules he cited?
 
Laced said:
Juvenile. Accusing me being one of the sideline idiots doesn't change the fact you made false claims.

Ultimately, the game belongs to the kids. It's their show. Not mine. Nor yours. But in the so many cute little stories you like to tell, you're usually the white knight. The main character. Never mind it's against referee ethics to talk about games. You want to "educate" us parents, as if LOTG is some mysterious document only you, with an entry-level license, can understand. As if working at MacDonald makes you a chef. You make up "rules of thumb" as if you don't have to work "within the framework" of LOTG. Don't want to get exposed? Simple. Don't pretend to be an authority on something you have a cursory understanding of. Don't cite rules that don't exist. You may or may not be an adequate youth referee. An authority on LOTG? Hardly.
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angry much? holy cow.....
 
wildcat66 said:
In all seriousness, do clubs/teams have any say who refs their games? Is there a schedule that comes out ahead of time? If a coach knows that certain refs tend to call things that perhaps his team does can he request different refs? I don't mean having referees that are in your pocket but it is also understandable that certain refs have personal beliefs on how the game is suppose to be played and that may not be your style ie when my daughter played a couple years ago in Coast Silver Elite, most of the teams during the season were Inland empire clubs who played what I called "blue collar physical soccer" the refs seemed to understand that and wouldn't call many fouls. The Attitude seemed to be "let them play." A few of the teams were from Temecula or orange county and when those refs officiated they were calling things that the other refs just simply didn't call. Also not to be stereotypical but many of the more Hispanic dominated sidelines were a lot more vocal towards what was going on .... the inland empire refs didn't seem to care where as the Orange county refs were always cautioning coaches/parents etc. On the same note do the refs have any say who they will ref? ie Coach A and I have a history so it wouldn't be fair for me to be his ref because whatever.....just thinking what if ref was the cousin or something of the coach and opposing team knew it?
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coaches or clubs can not request certain referees. that would be really "icky" for lack of a better term. the clubs do at times request not to have certain referees, and i have heard of associations, diverting those referees away from that club during the assigning. as for referees requesting certain teams or clubs? well, if we have any current affiliation to any clubs, we are not supposed to take those games, and for the most part that will happen. is this a perfect system? no.
are there different "style" of calling a game? yes and no, but mostly yes. certain referees might tend to call a tighter game or a loser game in general. however, that is not the way it should happen. calling a "tight" or "lose" game should depend on how the players are trying to play the game. if it's a higher level game and the players are comfortable with a little more physicality and are trying to fight through fouls and keep playing, then by all means the referee should allow that to a certain extent. if one team or the other is not comfortable with a high level of physicality, then if the fouls happen, they should be called. a good referee will call a game according to the players, not his or her own "style".
 
What do the refs think of the coaches who go up to them before games and "warn" them about the other team. I have had the pleasure of witnessing this now twice in a week and always wonder what a good ref is actually thinking?
 
baldref said:
coaches or clubs can not request certain referees. that would be really "icky" for lack of a better term. the clubs do at times request not to have certain referees, and i have heard of associations, diverting those referees away from that club during the assigning. as for referees requesting certain teams or clubs? well, if we have any current affiliation to any clubs, we are not supposed to take those games, and for the most part that will happen. is this a perfect system? no.
are there different "style" of calling a game? yes and no, but mostly yes. certain referees might tend to call a tighter game or a loser game in general. however, that is not the way it should happen. calling a "tight" or "lose" game should depend on how the players are trying to play the game. if it's a higher level game and the players are comfortable with a little more physicality and are trying to fight through fouls and keep playing, then by all means the referee should allow that to a certain extent. if one team or the other is not comfortable with a high level of physicality, then if the fouls happen, they should be called. a good referee will call a game according to the players, not his or her own "style".
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Thanks for this post.
I am confused about this though- "if one team isn't comfortable with the level of physicality"....uh the game is the game. A foul is a foul? Isn't that what you are trying to preach?
As much as I enjoy the theatrics, flops, girls crying then magically being healed on a direct kick, it's getting old.
Just trying to learn because I am definetly seeing a certain team likes to play a certain way and when the game isn't played the way they enjoy it they enlist a bevy of alternative tactics.
 
wildcat66 said:
For me it is the definition of "abusive" I have said before i attend many sporting events and have rarely seen referees concern themselves with crowd, snide comments, or spectator noise, except in soccer. On Friday i was at the local football game and it happened to be homecoming for the local high school. The game was close and toward the end there was quite a few penalties which were all judgement calls. Of course depending on which way the call went the crowd was either for it or against it. There were a number of boos, come on Refs, etc etc coming from both sides...the coaches both came a little unglued as well. did the refs stop the game and caution the coach? NO. Did the ref engage anyone of the spectators about there comments? NO. They never even turned around and looked at the crowd. They just reffed the game and called them as they saw them....Eere they wrong in not giving everyone a lecture in proper sportsmanship and etiquette I guess by some people's standard they didn't do thier job. I feel that they just blocked it out and by doing so the game progressed without any problems.
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Another thing that seems to be happening more in the last five years are the "teachable moment refs ". The ones who clearly enjoy their role and want to "make a point" by having a lengthy discussion about "how bad that was".
No thanks.
Don't see in football, baseball, lacrosse.
I like the refs and I respect them. However spare me the teachable moment lecture when you are not watching elbows flying, jerseys being pulled etc.
 
PSS for the record the ARs at the games this week were young. I made it a point to say thank you to them and say it was great having them because they kept pace with the game. His father was sitting next to me and said that is a rare thing and thanked me. I can only imagine my son doing it and would want someone to do the same to him one day.
So yes I do appreciate refs I am just confused by what I have been seeing round the pitch
 
ESPNANALYST said:
What do the refs think of the coaches who go up to them before games and "warn" them about the other team. I have had the pleasure of witnessing this now twice in a week and always wonder what a good ref is actually thinking?
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I'm not a fan of it. It makes no difference to me but it is annoying. I'm not going to approach the game any different.
 
ESPNANALYST said:
Thanks for this post.
I am confused about this though- "if one team isn't comfortable with the level of physicality"....uh the game is the game. A foul is a foul? Isn't that what you are trying to preach?
As much as I enjoy the theatrics, flops, girls crying then magically being healed on a direct kick, it's getting old.
Just trying to learn because I am definetly seeing a certain team likes to play a certain way and when the game isn't played the way they enjoy it they enlist a bevy of alternative tactics.
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A foul is a foul, but in soccer, it's the only sport where officials do not have to stop the game if the foul either makes no difference (trifling) or the team against which the foul was committed, gains an advantage by letting the game flow. We want the game to flow, not a bunch of whistles and free kicks. That being said, if fouls need to be called, we can and will call as many as needed to try to limit more, and can issue cards if need be. Yes, the diving and faking injury is a tool players use, and are taught, unfortunately, that we need to attempt to see through. But just because a player embellishes, doesn't mean they weren't fouled. It takes experience and lots a games to learn how to not let it affect you. Which gets back to the original point of this thread. Let the youth CR do his/ her job without trying to sway their judgement until such time as they gain more experience do they can become good at readin and reacting or not reacting to the intricacies of the higher age/level games
 
baldref said:
I'm not a fan of it. It makes no difference to me but it is annoying. I'm not going to approach the game any different.
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Thanks for this. To me I felt like it was disrespectful. If we truly apply the laws then a ref wouldn't need to know things like that. I just always find it a little out of bounds
 
We also hear a lot of "I hate the way Team C plays" etc etc. I laugh when people say those things because it shows they don't watch college soccer. Not everyone is going to play your "style".
 
ESPNANALYST said:
What do the refs think of the coaches who go up to them before games and "warn" them about the other team. I have had the pleasure of witnessing this now twice in a week and always wonder what a good ref is actually thinking?
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Working refs part of every sport even the ultimate sport of presidential debates.
 
ESPNANALYST said:
Agree just pointing out if you feel the need to do that for a u11-u16 soccer game there is a lot more wrong with youth sports than refs.
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Devils advocate; coaches responsibility to get every advantage for their team. Just like not paying taxes, it's smart. Yes youth sports may be the only endeavor where lay people try to tell officials and coaches how to do their job. Imagine telling your doctor where to make the incision. But from your tone I can tell you already understand all this.
 
baldref said:
A foul is a foul, but in soccer, it's the only sport where officials do not have to stop the game if the foul either makes no difference (trifling) or the team against which the foul was committed, gains an advantage by letting the game flow. We want the game to flow, not a bunch of whistles and free kicks.
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This is a big thing for new soccer parents to understand. Definitely it is partly cultural for Americans. All but a very few addicted soccer fans ever watched professional soccer on TV. But we all have tons of experience watching American sports, where foul calls are much different. Football refs will often avoid calling holding penalties if the hold happened away from the action and did not influence the play, but for the most part, because of the way the game is played, any foul is an big advantage for the cheat (in football, the play continues and you can even decline the penalty), so they have to call what they see. This was hard to grasp at first when I started watching my kid play. Once I understood the above, some of the no calls made a whole lot more sense. Of course now that I get it, it just means I can scream "HEY REF! PLAY THE ADVANTAGE!" when they do call a foul they shouldn't have. Poor refs. LOL
 
Mystery Train said:
This is a big thing for new soccer parents to understand. Definitely it is partly cultural for Americans. All but a very few addicted soccer fans ever watched professional soccer on TV. But we all have tons of experience watching American sports, where foul calls are much different. Football refs will often avoid calling holding penalties if the hold happened away from the action and did not influence the play, but for the most part, because of the way the game is played, any foul is an big advantage for the cheat (in football, the play continues and you can even decline the penalty), so they have to call what they see. This was hard to grasp at first when I started watching my kid play. Once I understood the above, some of the no calls made a whole lot more sense. Of course now that I get it, it just means I can scream "HEY REF! PLAY THE ADVANTAGE!" when they do call a foul they shouldn't have. Poor refs. LOL
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it's definitely something that comes with experience to know when or when not to allow advantage. i was doing the ecnl playoffs last july i think it was, and one of the great things about being allowed to referee those types of games is that you get to work with many very high level and very knowledgeable and proficient referees. i had a center in a girls 17 game, and on one line i had a national referee, and on the other a very experienced state referee and assessor. you always ask for feed back from these types of referees to learn and discuss the finer points of the games. one team had a great big center back that swept up just about everything, and would distribute to the mid field. one of the forwards for the other team took a shot at her pretty late after she dumped the ball in the defensive third to her outside back, and i waited and watched and allowed advantage. at half time, one of the critiques i got was that i shouldn't have allowed that advantage because there really wasn't any advantage to it. the ball is mired back in the defensive half of the field, go ahead and give the free kick. ok... so later in the game, halfway through the second half, same sort of thing happened, and for the third or fourth time the forward took a really late shot at the center back. so i immediately stopped play, gave a yellow for PI, and i could hear the the coach screaming at me. the center back had hit it long and picked out a winger flying down the touchline. i should have waited, watched, and given advantage there, then went back and carded the forward. after the game we talked about that too....... it's always a learning experience, and each play, no matter how similar it may look, can be very different.
 
baldref said:
it's definitely something that comes with experience to know when or when not to allow advantage. i was doing the ecnl playoffs last july i think it was, and one of the great things about being allowed to referee those types of games is that you get to work with many very high level and very knowledgeable and proficient referees. i had a center in a girls 17 game, and on one line i had a national referee, and on the other a very experienced state referee and assessor. you always ask for feed back from these types of referees to learn and discuss the finer points of the games. one team had a great big center back that swept up just about everything, and would distribute to the mid field. one of the forwards for the other team took a shot at her pretty late after she dumped the ball in the defensive third to her outside back, and i waited and watched and allowed advantage. at half time, one of the critiques i got was that i shouldn't have allowed that advantage because there really wasn't any advantage to it. the ball is mired back in the defensive half of the field, go ahead and give the free kick. ok... so later in the game, halfway through the second half, same sort of thing happened, and for the third or fourth time the forward took a really late shot at the center back. so i immediately stopped play, gave a yellow for PI, and i could hear the the coach screaming at me. the center back had hit it long and picked out a winger flying down the touchline. i should have waited, watched, and given advantage there, then went back and carded the forward. after the game we talked about that too....... it's always a learning experience, and each play, no matter how similar it may look, can be very different.
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What a horrible ref you are. You blew the game for them. They would have scored and won. You should quit now. Did you return your pay?

Or, way to try to protect a player, assess your call and get better.
 
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