Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[dad4]

There's an inconsistency in your reply, namely there is a direct conflict between


and the term "compromise", i.e. preserving the status quo isn't compromise.

Status quo is to allow all trans XY athletes in girls events, but hope none of the competent ones actually do it. I don’t support that policy.

The best idea for a compromise so far is to create divisions and leagues for high skill trans kids, but preserve girls leagues for girls. That idea I like.

If you don’t like it, then state your idea for a compromise. Remember that a youth league really should not require a medical procedure. So, if you admit trans kids on hormone suppressants, then you also admit trans kids whose transition is purely social.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

I'm nonchalant because its extremely unlikely to become "common". As best I can tell, 0.6% of the population identifies as trans. That's way less than 1 player per team out of 18 players. If the number increases by a factor of 10, then you get 1 player per team, on average. That seems very unlikely to me as they would all, on mass, have to play soccer ... to even get to the 1 per team number.

It seems to me to be a typical culture wars, storm in a teacup, appeal to emotion type issue that our pols love as it distracts people from their collective incompetence, but that's just me.

My goodness, this perspective is naive. People will "identify" in ways that are advantageous - opportunity and incentive will drive behavior as it has from the beginning of human existence. BTW - BS assumptions + math = BS. Always.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082622851/native-american-communities-concerned-about-self-identification-wannabes

More than a third of white students lie about their race on college applications, survey finds

A survey from Intelligent found that 34 percent of white students who applied to colleges and universities falsely claimed they were a racial minority on their application. The publicati…

thehill.com

 

[Woobie06]

This is a perfect example of why people have strong positions…is this correct, virtue signaling, or out of control? What message is this sending? Seriously, and how is this not at the expense of Biological Women…If there is a FTM that has won a Man of the Year Award, I have not seen it.


BTW…the Her-She jokes are all over Social Media…you can’t make this stuff up.

Does anybody really think this moves the needle to acceptance or does it make us look foolish? Serious Question.

 

[Grace T.]

Status quo is to allow all trans XY athletes in girls events, but hope none of the competent ones actually do it. I don’t support that policy.

The best idea for a compromise so far is to create divisions and leagues for high skill trans kids, but preserve girls leagues for girls. That idea I like.

If you don’t like it, then state your idea for a compromise. Remember that a youth league really should not require a medical procedure. So, if you admit trans kids on hormone suppressants, then you also admit trans kids whose transition is purely social.

Not the status quo. Most of them require balancing. Some may require better balancing if balancing is shown to be ineffective (the test being a mediocre athlete in the ms should not be the best athlete in the fs). For some it may be impossible, hence separate leagues may be necessary.

Compromise is easy: on the youth level, let them play (we don't go after the cheats). on the collegiate level, where we test, balance....if a balance is shown to be impossible, then separate leagues....separate leagues most likely in the running/jumping events and least likely in the teams even where numbers and the incremental contribution of 1 athlete makes it unnecessary except for certain hard cases like basketball and crew. On the pro and national team level, use the strictist scrutiny. Legally, Williams v Kincaid: don't treat either party's right as absolute but balance them against each other, because it should be treated as a disability.

 

[crush]

I'm nonchalant because its extremely unlikely to become "common". As best I can tell, 0.6% of the population identifies as trans. That's way less than 1 player per team out of 18 players. If the number increases by a factor of 10, then you get 1 player per team, on average. That seems very unlikely to me as they would all, on mass, have to play soccer ... to even get to the 1 per team number.

It seems to me to be a typical culture wars, storm in a teacup, appeal to emotion type issue that our pols love as it distracts people from their collective incompetence, but that's just me.

1 too many, moo

 

[Grace T.]

My goodness, this perspective is naive. People will "identify" in ways that are advantageous - opportunity and incentive will drive behavior as it has from the beginning of human existence. BTW - BS assumptions + math = BS. Always.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082622851/native-american-communities-concerned-about-self-identification-wannabes

More than a third of white students lie about their race on college applications, survey finds

A survey from Intelligent found that 34 percent of white students who applied to colleges and universities falsely claimed they were a racial minority on their application. The publicati…

thehill.com

Here I disagree. If there are protocols in place you have to calculate the cost and even a few months on hormones is enough to render you sterile and nonfunctioning and/or both. If you believe men are obsessed with a certain part of their anatomy, it's a hard price to pay for a trophy.

Now the counter to this is well what about the youth level....didn't you say youth should be allowed to compete without restriction? Yes, because we don't want to encourage them to transition early. That's a good argument, however, for steroid testing if you really believe this. If so you must believe steroid usage is particularly high where we don't test, at least among the boys who have a lower price to pay than the girls.

 

[crush]

This is a perfect example of why people have strong positions…is this correct, virtue signaling, or out of control? What message is this sending? Seriously, and how is this not at the expense of Biological Women…If there is a FTM that has won a Man of the Year Award, I have not seen it.

View attachment 15955

Just like FJB wife said, the girls need to step up their game and that includes the girls bathroom at school and the locker room in NCAA swimming.

 

[dad4]

Here I disagree. If there are protocols in place you have to calculate the cost and even a few months on hormones is enough to render you sterile and nonfunctioning and/or both. If you believe men are obsessed with a certain part of their anatomy, it's a hard price to pay for a trophy.

Now the counter to this is well what about the youth level....didn't you say youth should be allowed to compete without restriction? Yes, because we don't want to encourage them to transition early. That's a good argument, however, for steroid testing if you really believe this. If so you must believe steroid usage is particularly high where we don't test, at least among the boys who have a lower price to pay than the girls.

You misinterpret what was said about socially transitioned versus medically transitioned youth athletes. Many people have agreed that the two groups should be teated the same. But this does not necessarily mean “youth should be allowed to compete without restriction”. It could also mean “everyone stays with birth gender”, or “create a new division for trans kids”.

You want us to trust “protocols in place”? Lia Thomas did a great job of showing that female athletes can’t trust standards bodies to put “protocols in place“. We tried that, and they failed miserably. Create a separate division if you like, but don’t tell me that your new and improved testosterone reduction will work any differently than the old one.

 

[whatithink]

My goodness, this perspective is naive. People will "identify" in ways that are advantageous - opportunity and incentive will drive behavior as it has from the beginning of human existence. BTW - BS assumptions + math = BS. Always.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/23/1082622851/native-american-communities-concerned-about-self-identification-wannabes

More than a third of white students lie about their race on college applications, survey finds

A survey from Intelligent found that 34 percent of white students who applied to colleges and universities falsely claimed they were a racial minority on their application. The publicati…

thehill.com

So we're going to get "large" numbers of teenage boys identifying as trans in their daily life through high school and then on into college so that they can play sports and be better than cis girls, is that your premise? I don't see that.

BTW, where did I make assumptions in my math? 0.6% is a lot less than 1 player in 18 (as a %), 10 times that is about 1 player in 18 (as a %). There are no assumptions there.

 

[Grace T.]

You misinterpret what was said about socially transitioned versus medically transitioned youth athletes. Many people have agreed that the two groups should be teated the same. But this does not necessarily mean “youth should be allowed to compete without restriction”. It could also mean “everyone stays with birth gender”, or “create a new division for trans kids”.

You want us to trust “protocols in place”? Lia Thomas did a great job of showing that female athletes can’t trust standards bodies to put “protocols in place“. We tried that, and they failed miserably. Create a separate division if you like, but don’t tell me that your new and improved testosterone reduction will work any differently than the old one.

That's science buddy. Sometimes it doesn't work the first time. Trial and error, learn from the error. What doesn't work for swimming (which is decided by fractions of a second) doesn't necessarily not work for soccer (where the player is 1/11). That, not "trust Fauci", is how real science works. And it's a process we have to go through that cannot be rushed. It must be studied carefully with each permutation.

The problem with "create a new division for trans kids" is for team sports there is insufficient mass. With the exception of the aggregator sports (swim/track) and certain one off which are just hard cases (basketball, crew), it shouldn't make too much of a difference. If it did make a difference, my son's middle school team would be top of their division, but they aren't, because two highly regarded letter league athletes, both of whom are in the lower age range for their year and therefore among the oldest/tallest in middle school, even ones in two of the top marquee positions, simply aren't enough to lift a team consisting entirely of bronze, AYSO and rec players to the division championships.

 

[Slobodan]

Thank you for making it perfectly clear why trans participation in youth sports is so important.

Shut up, little bitch. Nobody was talking to you.

 

[Slobodan]

Awww....I'm honored SOTL. Ura!

You see the secret theory that always goes around is that the people who become most unhinged, the most hateful about this stuff is because they see a little bit of themselves in what they despise. Would explain the entire man trying to make himself out as defending women, but then engages in misogyny thing. So those pronouns might very well be appropriate in your case. You don't have a Matt Walsh beard do you????

Guys like Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk are all very articulate and knowledgeable. They also like to make fun of how far the democrats have fallen over the edge in attempting to scale the higher ground.

 

[Slobodan]

I'm nonchalant because its extremely unlikely to become "common". As best I can tell, 0.6% of the population identifies as trans. That's way less than 1 player per team out of 18 players. If the number increases by a factor of 10, then you get 1 player per team, on average. That seems very unlikely to me as they would all, on mass, have to play soccer ... to even get to the 1 per team number.

It seems to me to be a typical culture wars, storm in a teacup, appeal to emotion type issue that our pols love as it distracts people from their collective incompetence, but that's just me.

I think you're right from the viewpoint a legitimate trans person will participate in this on a very small scale, but the world is full of people looking for attention and that's what will become common. The longer we tolerate the insanity, the more insanity we will see.

 

[Slobodan]

This is a perfect example of why people have strong positions…is this correct, virtue signaling, or out of control? What message is this sending? Seriously, and how is this not at the expense of Biological Women…If there is a FTM that has won a Man of the Year Award, I have not seen it.

View attachment 15955
BTW…the Her-She jokes are all over Social Media…you can’t make this stuff up.

Does anybody really think this moves the needle to acceptance or does it make us look foolish? Serious Question.

Foolish... to the point of moronic, pathetic and pandering. They aren't females or women.

 

[Grace T.]

Guys like Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk are all very articulate and knowledgeable. They also like to make fun of how far the democrats have fallen over the edge in attempting to scale the higher ground.

Charlie Kirk (who BTW I know....we used to be neighbors) and Ben Shapiro (who I've had the good fortune of meeting a few times), have a very different take on this than either Matt Walsh or Michael Knowles. It's hard to tell if Walsh/Knowles are just clickbaiting to cash in on the $$$$, given how their particular contracts are rumored to be structure based on the Crowder disclosures, BUT they have engaged in quite a bit of ugliness that is very much over the line and has brought some condemnation from the moderates like me. It's the distinction between you and dad4 v. someone like woobie or kicking or kicker here. Oh, and before anyone brings it up, crush is Jordan Peterson in this scenario.

 

[Slobodan]

Charlie Kirk (who BTW I know....we used to be neighbors) and Ben Shapiro (who I've had the good fortune of meeting a few times), have a very different take on this than either Matt Walsh or Michael Knowles. It's hard to tell if Walsh/Knowles are just clickbaiting to cash in on the $$$$, given how their particular contracts are rumored to be structure based on the Crowder disclosures, BUT they have engaged in quite a bit of ugliness that is very much over the line and has brought some condemnation from the moderates like me. It's the distinction between you and dad4 v. someone like woobie or kicking or kicker here. Oh, and before anyone brings it up, crush is Jordan Peterson in this scenario.

Who isn't clickbaiting to get paid? None of them are doing it for personal growth. Fortunately CNN and MSNBC are on life support.

If you hate Matt Walsh because he did a gig on "what is a woman", that's on you. The fact that liberals can't answer that just shows how screwed up your party is.

 

[Grace T.]

Who isn't clickbaiting to get paid? None of them are doing it for personal growth. Fortunately CNN and MSNBC are on life support.

If you hate Matt Walsh because he did a gig on "what is a woman", that's on you. The fact that liberals can't answer that just shows how screwed up your party is.

I'm not a D. COVID did away with that. My Presidential vote has been split down the middle.

I saw it. No, there were things Walsh did that came pretty close to be over the line, but what did it for me was when he mocked the trans woman's appearance about a week ago. No reason for that. Even Shapiro wouldn't defend it. Just hate. But then, you'd know about that anyways, wouldn't you SOTL?

 

[crush]

Charlie Kirk (who BTW I know....we used to be neighbors) and Ben Shapiro (who I've had the good fortune of meeting a few times), have a very different take on this than either Matt Walsh or Michael Knowles. It's hard to tell if Walsh/Knowles are just clickbaiting to cash in on the $$$$, given how their particular contracts are rumored to be structure based on the Crowder disclosures, BUT they have engaged in quite a bit of ugliness that is very much over the line and has brought some condemnation from the moderates like me. It's the distinction between you and dad4 v. someone like woobie or kicking or kicker here. Oh, and before anyone brings it up, crush is Jordan Peterson in this scenario.

I've heard of Peterson but have no idea who he is. I don't feel like going online to get the google point of view either. If you type Jeffrey Epstein you get pictures of him and Trump with the ladies. I bet JE was trying to get Trump in a Honey Pot tramp and free flights to the Islands. Tell me why I am JP in this scenario, thx

 

[Slobodan]

I'm not a D. COVID did away with that. My Presidential vote has been split down the middle.

I saw it. No, there were things Walsh did that came pretty close to be over the line, but what did it for me was when he mocked the trans woman's appearance about a week ago. No reason for that. Even Shapiro wouldn't defend it. Just hate. But then, you'd know about that anyways, wouldn't you SOTL?

If you're talking about either one of these hideous beasts, then yes... both are very disturbing. Nobody is fooled... these are men. Male & mocked.

 

[watfly]

I'm nonchalant because its extremely unlikely to become "common". As best I can tell, 0.6% of the population identifies as trans. That's way less than 1 player per team out of 18 players. If the number increases by a factor of 10, then you get 1 player per team, on average. That seems very unlikely to me as they would all, on mass, have to play soccer ... to even get to the 1 per team number.

For team sports, I think you're spot on. However, I don't think "how common it is" is relevant when it comes to individual sports. I believe the issue is the magnitude of the event. It only takes one person to win a National Championship, a World Championship or an Olympic medal. Beer league ping pong, who cares.

One thing to consider is that while the number of people that are transgender may not have historically changed, the medical technology for them to transition has become more common and reliable. So you are seeing more with the gender appearance to compete against the gender opposite from their birth.