Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

Grace T. said:
The issue implied was that this is somehow new and doesn’t even appear in nature. That’s incorrect. It isn’t new and does appear in nature. The only thing that is really new is our ability to do anything about it. It’s the same with adhd. Has always existed. The only thing that’s new id the ability to do anything about it (and demands of modern society). Treatments for both are still not quite Stone Age but definitely Bronze Age.

the other thing that is fairly new is the labeling, at least in the west. There wasn’t so much a bi gay trans distinction. Yes there were people that fit into each description, and yes Roman society for example was much more forgiving of bi than trans and even expected men to engage in experimentation. You see the labeling come in with the Judaic influences in the west. They were the odd ducks of the ancient world with their one god and their various social rules. The early Christiana took on many of those rules, pushed along by the second factor which was the sense of some patricians that the empire was in moral decline and that sought to distinguish themselves from the excesses of a Caligula or Nero. Christianity and Roman Puritanism hit at the same time in imperial Rome to create the moral standards that lived on until the 20th century and its high point of progressivism and prohibition.
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Nero and his pals
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Yes, Nero the psychopath got whatever "IT" wanted and IT wanted both men and women anytime IT wanted. IT was non-gender because of IT's bloodline being traced back to Cain. IT feed all the Followers of Yeshua to wild animals to be chewed and eaten for breakfast, lunch and dinner for entertainment for the masses who would come and watch at the Coliseum. Lucifer beguiled Eve after Eve was tricked by the walking snake who could change on the dime into the most handsome snake on earth. Total trickster. After Eve had sex with the devil, she had sex with her hubby and Eve had twins. We see in the story of the Garden that was in Eden, that after her twins were born, Cain killed his half brother because of jealousy. Cain was a wolf and half human. Abel was 100% Human DNA and had a good heart and was a good man. Cain was a wild animal with no regard to others and zero empathy or remorse. I feel bad for Cain. Anyway, these are stories written thousands of years ago. Please don't don't get mad at me, I did not write these stories. The ghost of Cain is here at the forum btw and IT always get's angry. Bloodlines are very important and we shall all learn soon about how these bloodlines operate on the planet earth. TGIFF!

Nero!
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crush said:
Everyone, I found out who EOTL really is. He's Eric Cartman from SouthPark. I hope my bible lesson edified you Eric and spoke to your soul. Your soul is full of drakness and hate. Mars is very nice and humble. He's working on being a better follower of Yeshua and so am I. It's not easy to love your enemies and forgive them. I forgive you Eric.

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"Transginger" - Gotta love South Park.
 
Pat to play with our kids blood. They not only lie and cheat, they steal and now want US to send our children to fight freaking wars. "Show me the money!"

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Grace T. said:
Yes there are "trans" animals (there are also gay animals). The most common example is in bird species...the most typical example of those are beta male who keep the plumage and appearance and behavior of a female in order to avoid being attacked by males. You see it in some antlered mammals too such as moose and deer. You even do see it in dogs and horses (particularly if they have been neutered). In nature, MTF is overwhelmingly more common than FTM but both are nevertheless rare, appearing most often in birds, and interestingly enough, the great apes
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As long as we are drawing parallels - Is there an increased risk of suicide in trans animals? If not, it begs the question of how much sex change operations are responsible for any "recovery" from suicidal thoughts.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
As long as we are drawing parallels - Is there an increased risk of suicide in trans animals? If not, it begs the question of how much sex change operations are responsible for any "recovery" from suicidal thoughts.
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Beyond my bailiwick as to why they would prescribe gender transition to cure gender dysphoria. I'm not into that portion of the literature. However, it is clear there are people who benefit from the procedure, and it is clear that there are people who don't and are noticeably worse off.

The relevant question is how many people are benefited by treatment, how many people see no improvement and remain unchanged, and how many people see worse outcomes. There are bunch of side questions including length of time and degrees and by the procedures themselves (on which tech is advancing). Then there's also the balance that as of now there are no good mental treatments as well.

As for suicide in trans animals, animals generally do not have a suicide issue. The reason why is because to comprehend death you need to make a few leaps of understanding: 1) you have to understand there is such a thing and what it entails, 2) you have to understand it is a permanent condition, 3) you have to understand its inevitability, 4) you have to understand it applies to you and 5) you have to draw a logical conclusion that it might end whatever suffering you have. There are only a handful of animals that are capable of that (e.g., not dogs). The great apes, the cetaceans, and it looks like maybe a few others like the elephantidae. All of them extremely big brained. The are recorded instances of suicides among the great apes including "death by cop" such as a beta male throwing themselves at the alpha, knowing they have no chance, and the alpha tearing them apart. Mentioned in the De Waal book.
 
SurFutbol said:
You call it rinse and repeat, but that is only because the reasons that support trans participation in kiddie sports doesn't really change. The same can be said about you clowns who repeatedly litter this place with homophobic and transphobic comments, and have nothing to support your position besides "men are men and women or women".

I also love Christians, just like they love the LGBTQ community. In all seriousness, though, if someone can find the bible passage that explains why ECNL and CIF should not allow trans children to participate, by all means send it. The reality is that too many of you use Christianity hate others and use your purported christianity as a shield to hopefully avoid having to face repercussions because, you know, god says it's ok. But the reality is you can't point to any sound religious basis to ban trans children from kiddie sports. You can only find a religious basis to proclaim they are wrong and bad people, in order to rationalize why you have no empathy for them. And when that is your starting point, I have no respect for you no matter how much you say your abysmal beliefs are off limits because you interpret your bible to rationalize hatred.

I take no position on gender affirming care. If it ever becomes something that impacts my life, I am sure my position will be far more nuanced than your bs neanderthal position on trans participation in sports.
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Why do you support allowing males to play in female leagues? And let's not pretend that's not exactly what they are. No amount of lipstick and estrogen will change that. You appear to be far more concerned about the desires of males having a physical advantage than females competing on a level playing field. Why is that? Why don't you just create a truly fair league... for trans only. They'll support that, right? I mean, as tired of oppression as they have to be?
 
Slobodan said:
Why do you support allowing males to play in female leagues? And let's not pretend that's not exactly what they are. No amount of lipstick and estrogen will change that. You appear to be far more concerned about the desires of males having a physical advantage than females competing on a level playing field. Why is that? Why don't you just create a truly fair league... for trans only. They'll support that, right? I mean, as tired of oppression as they have to be?
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There are two main obstacle. One is money. Presumably on the college level this can be fixed easily enough by taking scholarship and funding from the girls and boys programs.

The second is numbers, even if you throw in the FTMs (who have long been underserved) and the nonbinary who want to play in the male-restricted league. For the youth level it's not a practical solution unless you are going to adopt a "busing for all" policy because high schools and below, or club teams, simply don't have enough of them in a sport to make it competitive, particularly if you are talking teams (there might be sufficient for a state championship in a large state like California for individual sports). On the college level, you probably could do something in the individual sports, since we are able to do it for disabilities. On the national and pro level, it becomes easier to aggregate. Conversely, however, when it comes to team sports the impact of one athlete is minimal...the sole exceptions maybe aggregate individual sports (e.g., swim and track teams) and basketball (which is simply just a hard case).

67 pages in we've covered the rest of your post. It's not as simple as saying men are men, women are women: biologically they are literally the brain of the opposite sex trapped in the opposite body...it's a physical condition not a life style choice. No one is changing just so they can get a competitive advantage and win. Yes, men have a physical advantage over women, bell curve to bell curve, but the question is can steps be taken in MTF to mitigate the advantage. It, unlike your post, is complicated.
 
Slobodan said:
Why do you support allowing males to play in female leagues? And let's not pretend that's not exactly what they are. No amount of lipstick and estrogen will change that. You appear to be far more concerned about the desires of males having a physical advantage than females competing on a level playing field. Why is that? Why don't you just create a truly fair league... for trans only. They'll support that, right? I mean, as tired of oppression as they have to be?
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I have answered your questions many times before. It also isn't hard to research why entities like CIF, ECNL, the NCAA, and the USWNT, among many others, support trans participation in youth sports. It is readily and publicly available. Information explaining how the emotional and other disadvantages that trans girls face typically outweigh any purported physical advantages is also readily available. The reasons why trans only leagues are not fair is also readily available. If you want to be anything more than a transphobe, why don't you do some research and then tell me what the arguments are in favor of allowing trans girls to participate with other girls, and then explain why you think they're outweighed by other factors?
 
SurFutbol said:
I have answered your questions many times before. It also isn't hard to research why entities like CIF, ECNL, the NCAA, and the USWNT, among many others, support trans participation in youth sports. It is readily and publicly available. Information explaining how the emotional and other disadvantages that trans girls face typically outweigh any purported physical advantages is also readily available. The reasons why trans only leagues are not fair is also readily available. If you want to be anything more than a transphobe, why don't you do some research and then tell me what the arguments are in favor of allowing trans girls to participate with other girls, and then explain why you think they're outweighed by other factors?
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But what are your thoughts on overweight girls and sports?
 
Grace T. said:
Beyond my bailiwick as to why they would prescribe gender transition to cure gender dysphoria. I'm not into that portion of the literature. However, it is clear there are people who benefit from the procedure, and it is clear that there are people who don't and are noticeably worse off.

The relevant question is how many people are benefited by treatment, how many people see no improvement and remain unchanged, and how many people see worse outcomes. There are bunch of side questions including length of time and degrees and by the procedures themselves (on which tech is advancing). Then there's also the balance that as of now there are no good mental treatments as well.

As for suicide in trans animals, animals generally do not have a suicide issue. The reason why is because to comprehend death you need to make a few leaps of understanding: 1) you have to understand there is such a thing and what it entails, 2) you have to understand it is a permanent condition, 3) you have to understand its inevitability, 4) you have to understand it applies to you and 5) you have to draw a logical conclusion that it might end whatever suffering you have. There are only a handful of animals that are capable of that (e.g., not dogs). The great apes, the cetaceans, and it looks like maybe a few others like the elephantidae. All of them extremely big brained. The are recorded instances of suicides among the great apes including "death by cop" such as a beta male throwing themselves at the alpha, knowing they have no chance, and the alpha tearing them apart. Mentioned in the De Waal book.
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Yes, as you say, we don't have any known issues with animal suicide. The point is that there are parallels in the animal kingdom to what we see in human gender/sexuality, but suicide is primarily a human phenomenon. That supports the idea that gender dysphoria may 1) be a symptom of some other malady rather than a cause of the suffering, or 2) be a small part of a much more complex set of factors. I fear that those suffering from gender dysphoria are often surrounded by well-meaning but narrowly focused individuals that promote the idea that operations and drugs to "change sexes" will alleviate their suffering.

Also, we need to include the longer-term outcomes of those who are suffering from gender dysphoria but choose not to have surgery. I believe you made the point in previous posts, but I wanted to emphasize that again. Or, is that what you were referring to in "also the balance ..."?
 
kickingandscreaming said:
Yes, as you say, we don't have any known issues with animal suicide. The point is that there are parallels in the animal kingdom to what we see in human gender/sexuality, but suicide is primarily a human phenomenon. That supports the idea that gender dysphoria may 1) be a symptom of some other malady rather than a cause of the suffering, or 2) be a small part of a much more complex set of factors. I fear that those suffering from gender dysphoria are often surrounded by well-meaning but narrowly focused individuals that promote the idea that operations and drugs to "change sexes" will alleviate their suffering.

Also, we need to include the longer-term outcomes of those who are suffering from gender dysphoria but choose not to have surgery. I believe you made the point in previous posts, but I wanted to emphasize that again. Or, is that what you were referring to in "also the balance ..."?
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No because we know gender dysphoria has a physiological basis. It’s caused by biology. Suicide may be a function of other factors including depression that results from the dysphoria made worse, as sockma does correctly point out, by a society that demands you fit in one of two poles. Again outside my wheelhouse but my limited understanding is that it is more than a depression/suicide concern. The pull of the brain being in an incongruous body is enough to drive some people coocoo for coco puffs which presumably accounts for some of the odd behavior you see in some of the more unflattering news stories. But yes that’s to what I was referring.
 
crush said:
thepostmillennial.com

USA Powerlifting MUST allow biological males in women’s division: court

The court cited “increased risk of depression and suicide, lack of access to coaching and practice facilities, or other performance suppression common to transgender persons.”
thepostmillennial.com thepostmillennial.com

View attachment 15892
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Yeah, I saw that. State judge, so his ruling only applies in Minnesota. And under appeal anyway.

This is what I meant by there will be enough EOTL-type advocates to kill any reasonable compromise. The wording from the US powerlifting was generally sympathetic to trans athletes. It more or less said,”we’re glad you like our sport and we wish you well, but we don’t have a way to enable you to fairly compete in that category.”.

What do they get? A lawsuit and an activist judge who wants to rewrite the policy from the bench.
 
SurFutbol said:
If your daughter is a terrible soccer player because she is fat and lazy, the two of you should work on that instead of blaming trans children for her inability to win a trophy.
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She balled this weekend in the all valley youth coed sunday league, that has to account for something...but tell me, why is it ok for you to insult the young women playing high school basketball but not for me to call you a hypocrite? Dumbshit.

Last I checked I didnt blame anyone for anything. Or are you projecting your repressed guilt for secretly being embarrassed of your trans child? That's fucked up man, like really fucked up of you.
 
dad4 said:
Yeah, I saw that. State judge, so his ruling only applies in Minnesota. And under appeal anyway.

This is what I meant by there will be enough EOTL-type advocates to kill any reasonable compromise. The wording from the US powerlifting was generally sympathetic to trans athletes. It more or less said,”we’re glad you like our sport and we wish you well, but we don’t have a way to enable you to fairly compete in that category.”.

What do they get? A lawsuit and an activist judge who wants to rewrite the policy from the bench.
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1. The ruling isn’t any less extremists than the position you’ve taken. The court recognized a counterbalancing interest of the transgendered athlete to play in the gender that the athlete expresses and that there is harm by banning them. Coming from you that’s rich. Your idea of a reasonable compromise seems to be separate leagues without funding taken from the girls and if there isn’t enough mass of participation too bad so sad they can play with men which once under treatment they can’t compete against either (if you look at her record btw you’ll see that it has deteriorated recently). People like you are just as responsible for a reasonable compromise being unlikely: you see anything short of surrender as unreasonable. Same dance as Covid.
2. The org has indicated an appeal is unlikely. It is a state law ruling and Minnesota is heavily blue. It won’t go to the feds unless some argument can be made that federal law trumps state law
3. As I predicted blue states and red states will begin to diverge. It will as a result impact national competitions. Eventually the federal bureaucracy will be forced to intervene and you may not like the result. The anti trans side might cut its nose off to spite its face. Hopefully Europe might lead the way towards a more reasonable approach
4. The partisanship on this issue from both sides is becoming really ugly. The far left position has become very almost anti woman, arguing against the aspects of femininity that make women unique: they seem to want us all in mao suits to be done with it. The right position is becoming increasingly ugly and hateful stirring up the same invective we saw 20 years ago on gay marriage: I’m specifically thinking of Michael Knowles (who yesterday called on folks to end transgenderism) and Matt Walsh (who was recently mocking a trans woman’s appearance). The stupid thing is this should be handled as a technical issue with reference to the science and rooted in disability law but both sides have politicized it with ugly rhetoric. And yes you are part of the problem and have been ugly too.
 
dad4 said:
Yeah, I saw that. State judge, so his ruling only applies in Minnesota. And under appeal anyway.

This is what I meant by there will be enough EOTL-type advocates to kill any reasonable compromise. The wording from the US powerlifting was generally sympathetic to trans athletes. It more or less said,”we’re glad you like our sport and we wish you well, but we don’t have a way to enable you to fairly compete in that category.”.

What do they get? A lawsuit and an activist judge who wants to rewrite the policy from the bench.
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It was only a matter of time until you used the term "activist judge" given how frequently you whine using the other fringy nut job catch phrases. In reality, you're just using this term to rationalize a decision you don't like. It is crazy how easily people are willing to piss away democracy if they don't get something their way. Rather than accept laws enacted by elected legislators, approved by an elected governor, and then ruled on by a twice elected judge, you casually try to delegitimize any ruling you don't like as being made by an "activist judge", although you have no idea what the law was, the reasoning of the judge, or even anything about the judge's background. It's the same bs when you use the term "woke" and "cancel culture" when you really mean that you don't want to face consequences for hating trans children and are pissy that you aren't getting your way.
 
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