kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
As long as we are drawing parallels - Is there an increased risk of suicide in trans animals? If not, it begs the question of how much sex change operations are responsible for any "recovery" from suicidal thoughts.
Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
- Start date
Beyond my bailiwick as to why they would prescribe gender transition to cure gender dysphoria. I'm not into that portion of the literature. However, it is clear there are people who benefit from the procedure, and it is clear that there are people who don't and are noticeably worse off.
The relevant question is how many people are benefited by treatment, how many people see no improvement and remain unchanged, and how many people see worse outcomes. There are bunch of side questions including length of time and degrees and by the procedures themselves (on which tech is advancing). Then there's also the balance that as of now there are no good mental treatments as well.
As for suicide in trans animals, animals generally do not have a suicide issue. The reason why is because to comprehend death you need to make a few leaps of understanding: 1) you have to understand there is such a thing and what it entails, 2) you have to understand it is a permanent condition, 3) you have to understand its inevitability, 4) you have to understand it applies to you and 5) you have to draw a logical conclusion that it might end whatever suffering you have. There are only a handful of animals that are capable of that (e.g., not dogs). The great apes, the cetaceans, and it looks like maybe a few others like the elephantidae. All of them extremely big brained. The are recorded instances of suicides among the great apes including "death by cop" such as a beta male throwing themselves at the alpha, knowing they have no chance, and the alpha tearing them apart. Mentioned in the De Waal book.
Why do you support allowing males to play in female leagues? And let's not pretend that's not exactly what they are. No amount of lipstick and estrogen will change that. You appear to be far more concerned about the desires of males having a physical advantage than females competing on a level playing field. Why is that? Why don't you just create a truly fair league... for trans only. They'll support that, right? I mean, as tired of oppression as they have to be?
There are two main obstacle. One is money. Presumably on the college level this can be fixed easily enough by taking scholarship and funding from the girls and boys programs.
The second is numbers, even if you throw in the FTMs (who have long been underserved) and the nonbinary who want to play in the male-restricted league. For the youth level it's not a practical solution unless you are going to adopt a "busing for all" policy because high schools and below, or club teams, simply don't have enough of them in a sport to make it competitive, particularly if you are talking teams (there might be sufficient for a state championship in a large state like California for individual sports). On the college level, you probably could do something in the individual sports, since we are able to do it for disabilities. On the national and pro level, it becomes easier to aggregate. Conversely, however, when it comes to team sports the impact of one athlete is minimal...the sole exceptions maybe aggregate individual sports (e.g., swim and track teams) and basketball (which is simply just a hard case).
67 pages in we've covered the rest of your post. It's not as simple as saying men are men, women are women: biologically they are literally the brain of the opposite sex trapped in the opposite body...it's a physical condition not a life style choice. No one is changing just so they can get a competitive advantage and win. Yes, men have a physical advantage over women, bell curve to bell curve, but the question is can steps be taken in MTF to mitigate the advantage. It, unlike your post, is complicated.
I have answered your questions many times before. It also isn't hard to research why entities like CIF, ECNL, the NCAA, and the USWNT, among many others, support trans participation in youth sports. It is readily and publicly available. Information explaining how the emotional and other disadvantages that trans girls face typically outweigh any purported physical advantages is also readily available. The reasons why trans only leagues are not fair is also readily available. If you want to be anything more than a transphobe, why don't you do some research and then tell me what the arguments are in favor of allowing trans girls to participate with other girls, and then explain why you think they're outweighed by other factors?
Chelsea dad g09
SILVER
But what are your thoughts on overweight girls and sports?
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
Yes, as you say, we don't have any known issues with animal suicide. The point is that there are parallels in the animal kingdom to what we see in human gender/sexuality, but suicide is primarily a human phenomenon. That supports the idea that gender dysphoria may 1) be a symptom of some other malady rather than a cause of the suffering, or 2) be a small part of a much more complex set of factors. I fear that those suffering from gender dysphoria are often surrounded by well-meaning but narrowly focused individuals that promote the idea that operations and drugs to "change sexes" will alleviate their suffering.
Also, we need to include the longer-term outcomes of those who are suffering from gender dysphoria but choose not to have surgery. I believe you made the point in previous posts, but I wanted to emphasize that again. Or, is that what you were referring to in "also the balance ..."?
No because we know gender dysphoria has a physiological basis. It’s caused by biology. Suicide may be a function of other factors including depression that results from the dysphoria made worse, as sockma does correctly point out, by a society that demands you fit in one of two poles. Again outside my wheelhouse but my limited understanding is that it is more than a depression/suicide concern. The pull of the brain being in an incongruous body is enough to drive some people coocoo for coco puffs which presumably accounts for some of the odd behavior you see in some of the more unflattering news stories. But yes that’s to what I was referring.
If your daughter is a terrible soccer player because she is fat and lazy, the two of you should work on that instead of blaming trans children for her inability to win a trophy.
USA Powerlifting MUST allow biological males in women’s division: court
The court cited “increased risk of depression and suicide, lack of access to coaching and practice facilities, or other performance suppression common to transgender persons.”
thepostmillennial.com
Yeah, I saw that. State judge, so his ruling only applies in Minnesota. And under appeal anyway.USA Powerlifting MUST allow biological males in women’s division: court
The court cited “increased risk of depression and suicide, lack of access to coaching and practice facilities, or other performance suppression common to transgender persons.”
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This is what I meant by there will be enough EOTL-type advocates to kill any reasonable compromise. The wording from the US powerlifting was generally sympathetic to trans athletes. It more or less said,”we’re glad you like our sport and we wish you well, but we don’t have a way to enable you to fairly compete in that category.”.
What do they get? A lawsuit and an activist judge who wants to rewrite the policy from the bench.
Chelsea dad g09
SILVER
She balled this weekend in the all valley youth coed sunday league, that has to account for something...but tell me, why is it ok for you to insult the young women playing high school basketball but not for me to call you a hypocrite? Dumbshit.
Last I checked I didnt blame anyone for anything. Or are you projecting your repressed guilt for secretly being embarrassed of your trans child? That's fucked up man, like really fucked up of you.
1. The ruling isn’t any less extremists than the position you’ve taken. The court recognized a counterbalancing interest of the transgendered athlete to play in the gender that the athlete expresses and that there is harm by banning them. Coming from you that’s rich. Your idea of a reasonable compromise seems to be separate leagues without funding taken from the girls and if there isn’t enough mass of participation too bad so sad they can play with men which once under treatment they can’t compete against either (if you look at her record btw you’ll see that it has deteriorated recently). People like you are just as responsible for a reasonable compromise being unlikely: you see anything short of surrender as unreasonable. Same dance as Covid.
2. The org has indicated an appeal is unlikely. It is a state law ruling and Minnesota is heavily blue. It won’t go to the feds unless some argument can be made that federal law trumps state law
3. As I predicted blue states and red states will begin to diverge. It will as a result impact national competitions. Eventually the federal bureaucracy will be forced to intervene and you may not like the result. The anti trans side might cut its nose off to spite its face. Hopefully Europe might lead the way towards a more reasonable approach
4. The partisanship on this issue from both sides is becoming really ugly. The far left position has become very almost anti woman, arguing against the aspects of femininity that make women unique: they seem to want us all in mao suits to be done with it. The right position is becoming increasingly ugly and hateful stirring up the same invective we saw 20 years ago on gay marriage: I’m specifically thinking of Michael Knowles (who yesterday called on folks to end transgenderism) and Matt Walsh (who was recently mocking a trans woman’s appearance). The stupid thing is this should be handled as a technical issue with reference to the science and rooted in disability law but both sides have politicized it with ugly rhetoric. And yes you are part of the problem and have been ugly too.
It was only a matter of time until you used the term "activist judge" given how frequently you whine using the other fringy nut job catch phrases. In reality, you're just using this term to rationalize a decision you don't like. It is crazy how easily people are willing to piss away democracy if they don't get something their way. Rather than accept laws enacted by elected legislators, approved by an elected governor, and then ruled on by a twice elected judge, you casually try to delegitimize any ruling you don't like as being made by an "activist judge", although you have no idea what the law was, the reasoning of the judge, or even anything about the judge's background. It's the same bs when you use the term "woke" and "cancel culture" when you really mean that you don't want to face consequences for hating trans children and are pissy that you aren't getting your way.
I thought about everything you write and I'm going to agree with you. The facts are the facts. This judge ruled and we need to honor the ruling. US Soccer, NCAA, Pro Soccer, ECNL, CIF and many others have ruled as well. So as we stand today, you can be a man one day and woman the next day to compete against the biological female. If the female is not good enough to beat out the MTF, oh well. That's all it takes is a verbal admission. The MTF can now use the woman's locker room. Those are the rules of today. I will just ask that you honor the laws and rules if they change.
Bible Lesson for today: "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Yeshua
If I disagree with a court decision, you can rest assured it will be based on a reasoned analysis after reading the case and the applicable laws upon which the decision was based. Unlike you and your friends, I don't disregard the legitimacy of court decisions without even bothering to read them simply because I don't like the result. Unlike you, I don't use stupid terms like "woke" and "cancel culture" and "activist judge" when I'm not getting my way.
You and your friends don't get to have law a la carte. It's one thing to read a court decision and explain why you believe it is wrongly decided, but quite another to see a result you don't like and then try to discredit the opinion and democratic government using all the sad little catchphrases that your fringe alt-right websites gave you, and without even reading the decision or understanding the legal reasoning behind it. The real irony here is that you and your friends like dad4 are the ones who want decisions that require judicial activism, because you're the ones who want result-oriented decisions (so long as it's the result you want) without any regard for the legal reasoning or the actual text of a statute.
We know in "some cases" that gender dysphoria has a physiological basis. There are often other bases for GD. We're still very green when it comes to our knowledge of GD. Now if GD is being strictly defined as having a physiological basis, then in some cases its being misdiagnosed as is evidenced by those that have regretted transitions. Like any medical and mental condition that requires serious, potentially life changing, treatment an extreme abundance of caution should be exercised when making the diagnosis.
More Bible lessons for today: god thinks it is fine to own slaves and also to beat them to death, so long as you only whack them hard enough to die slowly over the course of a day or two. He also commands that slaves with masters who believe in god just need to suck it up and be better slaves:
"When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property." Exodus 21:20-21.
"Let all who are under a yoke as bondservants regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these things." 1 Timothy 6:1-2