This is exactly the type of thing one expects from a HS dropout who is trying to discuss epidemiology.
Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
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This is exactly the type of thing one expects from a HS dropout who is trying to discuss epidemiology.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
I don't appreciate those that use the anonymity of the forum to address people in a way that they wouldn't in person. Also, not a fan of those whose perspectives are one-dimensionally, with little indication there is a human being under it all. Outlaw certainly wasn't one-dimensional, but he was nasty at times, used misogynistic language, and IIRC used borderline/over-the-line racist language by the definition used years ago. I generally avoid engaging in these cases - as you have seen. EOTL posts often, and sometimes I point out the anger, misanthropy, and lack of rational thought that drives his responses as a reminder of what EOTL is.
These past few years, it's been eye-opening to see the movement toward authoritarianism. I have become more focused on how people come to their perspectives and treat those that don't share them. That matters much more to me than having the same perspective.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
Let me give you some dumb dumb food through story time. When I was a Sr in HS, my father was dying from the dreaded Parkinson's disease. He was given less than a year to survive. I watched the most loving man in the world suffer a horrible death. He taught me how to fight to live. I had many reasons to take the G.E.D. and get out early. The #1 reason was to help my father for his end of life care. The #2 reason was my Earth Science Teacher was crazy like you and was trying to make my life a living hell. She was an Anti Christ-Evolutionist Preacher and loved abortion. We had many debates in class. She actually loved rocks more than humans. After basketball season was over, I had no reason to stay at Troy HS so I took the GED. It was the best decision I made because I was able to love dad to the end. It's funny how people call you a troll. Your no troll. What is your name demon? I can help you EOTL exercise that demon that has obviously taken over your soul. We both know the truth about why you have attacked me and my dd for over 6 years. I forgive you just so you know.
Dad at the VA in Long Beach after finding peace with Christ. Look at that smile.
You have to agree they lost the debate to a high school dropout....lol!
Maybe I'm high, but the majority of the posters on this forum aren't very far apart in their perspectives on this topic (ignoring EOTL, Crush and 13knots). For the most part everyone is on either side of center. I.e. Empathetic to transgender youth and adults, with some degree of caution and balance on adult competitive sports. They will disagree, but I don't think Dad4 and GraceT are all that far apart, maybe on different ends of center, but just really committed to supporting their perspective. It seems that most of the angst is over how you reached your opinion, rather that actually over the final conclusion.
It is interesting to see how authoritarianism seems to be migrating from right to left.
Like I said 4 years ago, we live in a dualistic western society. They programmed us from birth to fight each other. I debate Christian Nationalist over at Truth Social. The men in these groups are nuts and want a nation like them. No way Jose I tell them. We need to become a Nation that allows EVERYONE to be free. This right vs left is for the birds. I love God so much and I love his son Yeshua. I really really love God. I do not push this on folks like I did in the old days. I was wrong with my message 100%. Experience has taught me that each person is unique and sovereign and each human needs to be set free (especially the females) and then they can decide how and who to follow. 18,000 gods are among us. I choose the One God, who is the God over the little gods and thank God this God=love. I will not push any religion on anyone. I just want people to know the God of Love, loves them and is not looking to send anyone to hell. That is the big lie. Anyway, God bless you and I wish you nothing but the best.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
Agreed. I think it's safe to say this thread won't reach 1000 pages anytime soon. Also, there's just not enough data to misinterpret, and, as authoritarian as things have become, I don't see us at the point where the government mandates that all men become trans to cure transphobia. But, hold on to that outfit, @crush, just in case.
I think we are pretty close on the college level...we both support restrictions, we both say if hypothetically you can get an outcome where the mtf is weakened they can play with the f, and we are both skeptical the science will show that all sports can be rebalanced. Where our primary disagreement seems to be on that level is whether it makes a difference on a team sport like soccer (where 1 player's impact is minimal at this level), and whats to be done in the event there is no rebalance possible, and whether we need to wait. On the youth level we've moved further apart: dad4 originally wanted to consign ECNL to the same scrutiny as college, notwithstanding the lack of drug testing, but has moved to ban at all levels; I originally thought some events like track and swimming state championships, which I think should be drug tested, should not only be drug tested but trans screened but some of the remarks here from the cons have made me rethink that position. The morality of how you get there, though, is critically important because the outcomes present a bit of a trolley problem for us. Someone is going to get hurt and the answer is who. My position is we should minimize suffering wherever possible, but you can't get there if you believe an action is morally wrong. The fundamental disagreement is there is a group of people who believe that trans people are making a choice and that choice is somehow immoral ("cheating"); whereas those opposed think it's something like a disability and needs to be analyzed with the same respect and balancing act (it's o.k. to argue an accommodation is unreasonable; it's not o.k. to argue they aren't entitled to have one considered).
Society in general is moving towards authoritarianism and safetyism. There is no question that safetyism is motivating some of the con positions here. I'm sympathetic, but my objection is you can't single out the trans kid for safetyism but ignore the mountain of a goalkeeper or 6 ft striker that is mowing down kids 1/2 their size. It's a tendency which is present in both the right and left. You see it most clearly in the book censorship debates (which my friend polimath was waxing lyrical today on his substack): the right is objecting to books in schools/libraries that are sexually risque, pro LGBTQ, pro systemic racism theory; the left is objecting to books which may have been written in the past with racist language or memes (Mark Twain and "To Kill a Mockingbird" come screaming to mind) or which are pro religion or which are pro patriotic. Both sides are more than happy to engage in censorship in the name of safetyism and protecting kids. Then you have Harry and Megan wondering outloud why "South Park" is allowed to mock them on television and why Americans have a silly first amendment which prevents them from suing when the South Park creators are mean to them.
1. From my observations, and very humble opinion, through reading too much of this discussion, Dad4 is not a transphobe. He's just annoyed at you two and lashing out at you two specifically, not the trans community. Most of us have done things like that.
2. Bathroom stalls or dividers. Seriously, no one wants to look at anyone's equipment. It's a win win situation for everyone.
3. You're looking at the extreme positions, but the general disposition of the majority, is not that it's a choice. Most of us do not think it's a choice but we think it's been rushed too early before kids brains fully materialize. ALL children and teenagers (and some adults) are trying to figure themselves out, some will try being a trans while others will realize through the years that they are actually trans. It matters not to the majority of us. We want everyone to figure it out and be themselves, and hopefully find happiness in who they are. Nothing wrong with it. It's the process of growing up.
As for sports, we're not basing our decisions on "choice", we're basing it on sports. Sports is decided by genetic markers of birth gender. If boys who want to dress up in makeup and "conventional" female appearances are not welcome by their teammates in a boy's league, then that's an issue that should be addressed with teammates. Don't move the kid to a different gender league because a few boys aren't taught to mind their own business as to how people want to dress. Teammates should focus on how good a player is and how great of a teammate an individual is. Teammates should not care about an individual's choice of fashion accessories. Address the problem, not create a new one.
4. Yes - at the moment the person made the rude comment, that person was being an ass. We are all asses at times and most normal humans regret being asses after they've acted like one. It doesn't mean we'll never have our ass moments again. Most of the time, our "ass moments" come out when we feel disrespected. Not an excuse, just an explanation.
Chelsea dad g09
SILVER
Lame. You have zero clue what youre speaking on. I haven't voiced my opinion on this issue, only that you're a hypocritical ideologue that is left frothing at the mouth over anyone that doesnt share your opinion. Troll, you assume which way I stand on the matter because I called you out. It's ok mijo, you can always go back to your safe space. Hows your wife by the way?
1. Yes, I agree he does have a tendency to lash out, especially when cornered. That's why I suggested it might be a disability. Would go far to explaining a bunch of other things such as the reading comprehension, the taking umbrage and considering it an insult to be called on the carpet for reading comprehension, the introversion, the math, the anxiety and safetyism, and inability to self reflect. I want to believe he's a good person, but the line crossing has happened a bit too much for it to just be faux pas. Agree to disagree.
2. Interestingly Tongan society, which is very overtly religious, has a third gender, of boys assigned at birth as males, but who express as female, called fakaleiti, or in English "sexy boys". Despite the conservative religious culture, no one pays the "sexy boys" very much mind, and in the olden days, some families were actually excited to have "sexy boys" in their families as it came with a higher social status (kind of like the priesthood did in Catholic families). There's even a beauty pageant in Polynesia for them. They remain physically "boys" but express themselves as "female" in dresses and makeup. This seems very in much with the solution you seem to be advocating. I agree it would be nice if we as a society could do this, as it would put less pressure on the mtf trans to think they must transition chemically and socially. Unfortunately, that's not the reality we live in here in the west. Indeed, in the Kingdom of Hawaii, they were brutalized and brought to extinction by the Congregational missionaries (ironically, the Congregational sect is now one of the most pro LGBTQ protestant denominations out there). The reality is we are in a country where a large segment get outraged if even a post-surgical trans mtf is seen in the female bathroom. You are kind of outstep with your fellow con people on this one, but I appreciate the thought and independent thinking.
3. I don't have any problem with your first paragraph. Your second paragraph, however, is a bit of utopianism. You really think the other boys aren't going to tease the player on their m team that shows up in a dress and plays with a bow in her hair? You really think the coach is going to accept that person onto the team, assuming there is an equivalent person without such issue available, just to avoid the drama? You really think the parents on the team aren't going to scapegoat the kid when they make a mistake in a game (as they all do at at even the pro level)? You really think parents and other players, who taunt African American kids with the "n" word in the Valley on the soccer field (and the refs don't do anything: "I didn't hear it!"), are going to not say anything to them? You think the mtf will be brave and put together enough to face all that? It's a nice sentiment but not the reality we live in. We don't have a "sexy boy" culture in the west. We force people to chose which box they fit in: m or f. It's funny, the sentiment is actually closer to the hard left position that gender is "just a construct", on which we live on a spectrum, and there is no such thing really as a man or woman.
4. K
Remember we could talk to our pals at work about anything? I loved debate and now it's either you obey my way or I hate you. It's a trip bro.
2 & 3 - It appears you're pretty much saying the same thing in both, which is: The mistakes of the past and jerks in society will ruin it for us because they will still continue to berate MTF. No doubt there will be people like this going forward, regardless of what "solutions" are put in place. There will always be people who behave this way. However, it doesn't mean the majority will behave this way. Look how far we've come with so many things such as gay rights. Listen to the people on this forum, most of us DO NO CARE IF SOMEONE DECIDES TO WEAR A BOW OR A CAP ON THEIR HEAD. We would also yell at our kids if they made fun of other kids for doing so. Yes, our generation defined gender roles too much but we've really come a long way as we see a lot of dads as the better home parent and lots of moms as the better career person. We've also see both genders share home responsibilities and financial responsibilities. We've come to realize previous gender roles are too narrow and are really just UNNECESSARY. We do not need definitions of how each gender should behave or accessorize themselves.
Continue to address and focus on the real issue - which is - let people be their individual selves. I absolutely believe and have seen that our society is capable of this.
You might want to ease up on the "rudeness implies disability" comments. To anyone who is disabled, your constant repetition of the claim is inconsiderate, to say the least.
I am disabled. ADHD obsessive hyperfocused.
1. It's not enough for you to yell at your kids if they made fun of other kids. If you want to change the world, it's incumbent on you to make them sheep dogs: to step up and prevent others from doing it, even at the cost of getting beat up themselves. We've all seen the spate of school beatings recently when no one steps up to do anything to protect the victim (whether for physical fear to themselves, apathy, or in some cases fear of being labelled racist). Want utopia? Encourage your kids to be sheep dogs not just stopping them from being sheep. They have to stand against the night against the wolves, even at the cost of their own safety.
2. I really appreciate your vision. It's a very thoughtful and compassionate way at looking at the world.
3. I think you overlook, though, that for the trans kid that is transitioning, they may face all this, but at least can be comfortable playing in the gender to which they prefer. "Well, everyone is going to make fun of me, but at least I can be who I am". At the youth level we don't care about the fair playing field. I'm not saying they should be forced to transition to play with the opposite gender....they should have a choice of what makes them the most comfortable, given there is, on the youth level, no counterbalancing factor you can articulate to prevent this. It may be your utopia, but it's not necessarily there's.
4. One thing I agree with Jordan Peterson is that gender is not a construct. I think you are just wrong about that. Men and women are fundamentally different. The brains of trans individuals also seem to support this: they are literally the different brain stuck in the wrong body. This is something akin to a disability, not a way of being. It should be treated as such.
Hyperfocus is not a disability. It's a superpower.
I appreciate the sentiment but it's not always the case. Particularly when the dog in order to get the bone has latched onto the firetruck speeding away from him at 60 miles an hour into a burning neighborhood. "I want the bone, what do you mean there's a fire???" One of my heroes, Michael Burry, in addition to autism, suffers from this.
I lost my hyperfocus ability at some point. I think beer might have been involved in the transition.