Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

kickingandscreaming said:
It's a mistake to assume that EOTL's goal is to promote his beliefs with reason - as pretty much everyone else here does. His responses make sense when viewed from the perspective that his goal is NOT to state a reasoned position but to direct his everpresent rage at someone. Put another way, consider going to one of the funerals the Westboro Baptist Church "protested" and attempting to have a reasoned discussion with the protesters. How do you think that would go? Nutters gonna Nut.
Click to expand...
Fair so long as you apply the same standard to 13 knots (or sheriff of outlaw or whatever his former name was).

i agree dad4 is trying to advance his ideas with reasoning. He did the same with Covid. However there are multiple blind spots here, the same as happened with Covid. It either represents bad faith reasoning, or to give him the benefit of the doubt, one must conclude something else is going on such as a disability. We know in his case it is neither stupidity nor, particularly after 55 pages, ignorance.
 
Grace T. said:
Fair so long as you apply the same standard to 13 knots (or sheriff of outlaw or whatever his former name was).

i agree dad4 is trying to advance his ideas with reasoning. He did the same with Covid. However there are multiple blind spots here, the same as happened with Covid. It either represents bad faith reasoning, or to give him the benefit of the doubt, one must conclude something else is going on such as a disability. We know in his case it is neither stupidity nor, particularly after 55 pages, ignorance.
Click to expand...
TY for not including crush in this post. I bet if you had three dds you would have a different take, moo
 
crush said:
TY for not including crush in this post. I bet if you had three dds you would have a different take, moo
Click to expand...
I have two nieces, one of which plays youth soccer and a goddaughter doing club tennis (i played myself too). You know I love you crush. Your heart is in the right place. I'll extend the same generosity to dad4 if he changes his avatar to a clownfish and joins you in the surf down the transaustralian current.
 
Grace T. said:
I have two nieces, one of which plays youth soccer. You know I love you crush. Your heart is in the right place. I'll extend the same generosity to dad4 if he changes his avatar to a clownfish and joins you in the surf down the transaustralian current.
Click to expand...
Nieces don't count. Imagine if you will one of you dds is a top GK at a so so program. She has one year left and decides to transfers to Big U for a big opportunity at the Cup. Coach says the starting spot is yours to lose. DD travels across the country with dreams of a natty. However, Felix the GK on the men's team has not played one minute and is not going to play. Felix decides he now identifies as a female, changes his name to Felecia and walks on to the girls program and is lights out better, bigger and stronger than your dd. Coach has that tough talk with your dd the gk and says, "sorry, but Felicia is better then you and I need to win to keep my job. Your back up now." Honestly, how would you feel and how would your dd feel? That's the issue for most of us parents with dds. I hope you can respect that. I love you Grace as well.
 
crush said:
Nieces don't count. Imagine if you will one of you dds is a top GK at a so so program. She has one year left and decides to transfers to Big U for a big opportunity at the Cup. Coach says the starting spot is yours to lose. DD travels across the country with dreams of a natty. However, Felix the GK on the men's team has not played one minute and is not going to play. Felix decides he now identifies as a female, changes his name to Felecia and walks on to the girls program and is lights out better, bigger and stronger than your dd. Coach has that tough talk with your dd the gk and says, "sorry, but Felicia is better then you and I need to win to keep my job. Your back up now." Honestly, how would you feel and how would your dd feel? That's the issue for most of us parents with dds. I hope you can respect that. I love you Grace as well.
Click to expand...
I'd say not good. The problem is that in fact happens even with cis girls and boys. Indeed you could very well be a boy with an academy spot and they just drop you because someone equally good but one inch taller comes along. You've given up your academic track, you've been with the academy for years since you were first ID at age 12, and you've done great, but someone just a little taller comes along even though you both work equally hard and are equally as skilled. The bigger problem is the coach is an ass, but if we believe soccer is really a meritocracy, too bad so sad. The biggest problem is our short term soccer culture that has become obsessed with short term wins instead of development, results over loyalty. Preaching to the choir on all this. My only objection is when the trans kid gets singled out for it, but everyone else gets a pass. Besides, in your scenario, the trans kid is likely to be ruled ineligible for national team due to transitioning protocols (which for the national team, should rightly be much much stricter than kiddie ball, particularly since steps are taken to sus out cheaters).
 
Grace T. said:
17 is youth for which we don’t test for cheaters. We’ve been through this unpteem times. What you trying to accomplish again? Is it a disability? The question in this division of whether men are superior in performance to women is irrelevant because we know those on Peds are to the non and we don’t do anything about them.

as for young adult where we do test it’s not enough to say the men outperform the women. You have to ask if any rebalancing does the trick. We used to think the answer was yes. Our assumptions have been thrown on their heads which means our assumptions about ftms are wrong too. You want to declare everything over. That’s not science. That’s religion again. Scientifically we are only at the end of the beginning and the few number of data points means it’s gonna take a decade or two because we gotta go sport by sport and errors will be made in both directions
Click to expand...
I remember. Your basic argument is that, if we have lax enforcement against cheating type #1, then cheating type #2 should be legalized.

Think what happens if we accept this argument. If we accept your argument, then any and all forms of cheating should also be legalized. "Well, we don't test for peds, therefore the rules should change to allow 17 year olds in U13." "Well, we don't test for players who are ineligible because of peds, therefore we should change the rules to allow players to play with red cards."

There is a reason no one else has signed on to your ped argument. It is illogical nonsense.
 
Grace T. said:
I have two nieces, one of which plays youth soccer and a goddaughter doing club tennis (i played myself too). You know I love you crush. Your heart is in the right place. I'll extend the same generosity to dad4 if he changes his avatar to a clownfish and joins you in the surf down the transaustralian current.
Click to expand...

Do you not see the memes he posts? How do you consider his heart is in the right place when he posts one of a drag queen and it says we're living in the Twilight Zone?
 
dad4 said:
I remember. Your basic argument is that, if we have lax enforcement against cheating type #1, then cheating type #2 should be legalized.

Think what happens if we accept this argument. If we accept your argument, then any and all forms of cheating should also be legalized. "Well, we don't test for peds, therefore the rules should change to allow 17 year olds in U13." "Well, we don't test for players who are ineligible because of peds, therefore we should change the rules to allow players to play with red cards."

There is a reason no one else has signed on to your ped argument. It is illogical nonsense.
Click to expand...

Because that's not what's happening. What you call "cheating type 2" is a disability accommodation that is not in violation of the rules. Cheating type 1 is a violation of the rules but we turn a blind eye to it What's so hard to understand? You are giving out and out cheaters a pass, but going after the trans kids. WHY? You've never been able to articulate the philosophical reason for why, leading me to conclude at this point, it is either bias or you just don't understand.;
 
Grace T. said:
Because that's not what's happening. What you call "cheating type 2" is a disability accommodation that is not in violation of the rules. Cheating type 1 is a violation of the rules but we turn a blind eye to it What's so hard to understand? You are giving out and out cheaters a pass, but going after the trans kids. WHY? You've never been able to articulate the philosophical reason for why, leading me to conclude at this point, it is either bias or you just don't understand.;
Click to expand...
Why does that make your argument any more valid?

You’re still saying “I don’t like the lax enforcement against performance enhancing drugs, therefore the rules should allow biological biys in the girls division.”

There is still no logical connection between thing 1 and thing 2. It’s entirely consistent to oppose drug testing on financial grounds, but support a strict definition of gender. The exact opposite is also consistent. Someone might support gender by affirmation, but insist on weekly drug testing.

As an argument, it still stinks.
 
dad4 said:
Why does that make your argument any more valid?

You’re still saying “I don’t like the lax enforcement against performance enhancing drugs, therefore the rules should allow biological biys in the girls division.”

There is still no logical connection between thing 1 and thing 2. It’s entirely consistent to oppose drug testing on financial grounds, but support a strict definition of gender. The exact opposite is also consistent. Someone might support gender by affirmation, but insist on weekly drug testing.

As an argument, it still stinks.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. It's based on the hierarchy of evils. You don't go after the jay walkers if you've give the murders a free pass and you certainly do not give them the same punishment. The hierarchy of evils is a concept which predates even biblical times and which organizes all our criminal procedures, philosophies (whether western, Judaeo-Christian, islamic or eastern) and morality. The hierarchy of evils is one of the bedrocks virtually all human societies are based on. You cry fairness but can't even see that there's nothing fair about going after the innocents when you turn a blind eye to the guilty, and can't even articulate a valid reason to distinguish the two. If fairness is your concern, there's nothing fair about the cheaters either. If it's safety, there's nothing safe about the cheaters either. Again, short of you being able to articulate a rationale for going after one and not going after the other (which no one here has been able to do yet after 50 pages), the only conclusions are either: a) you don't understand, and you aren't dumb or ignorant, so only inability is the only thing remaining on the table, or b) we know your reason, which is bias (e.g. you consider the trans thing equally morally wrong to the outright cheating), and you don't want to say.
 
dad4 said:
to to oppose drug testing on financial grounds
Click to expand...
This BTW is the first time you've articulated a principle to distinguish the two. "Financial".

First, the retort is morally weak. You are basically saying I want a fair playing field but I don't care enough about one to be inconvenienced or to have to pay for one. That leads to the inference that you don't really care about a fair playing field and all your protestations are really just pearl clutching. The only way this gets you there in a logically consistent manner is if you consider the trans thing such a greater or equivalent moral wrong to outright cheating, that it is morally worthy of a stricter structure.

Second, from a strictly utilitarian point of view, we know it's not true because they do manage to do it on the college level. If ECNL and MLS Next soccer are really so important, we have a guidepost for how it would work.

Third, given California issues birth certificates to trans kids now on demand, you have the same utilitarian problem with the trans individual. You would need to establish a protocol to test and hunt down anyone suspected of being trans, which again carriers farther than we do for PEDS. You have not articulated what that protocol would be or how it would be effected, because playing with a birth certificate issued by a state government would legally immunize you otherwise.

Fourth, as in the case of the Utah girl previously discussed, such as system, short of universal testing, sets up the externality that a cis girl can be innocently accused and subject to testing for being trans. Unlike the Utah situation, since school records are not an option, such an examination would be much more intrusive.
 
Grace T. said:
This BTW is the first time you've articulated a principle to distinguish the two. "Financial".

First, the retort is morally weak. You are basically saying I want a fair playing field but I don't care enough about one to be inconvenienced or to have to pay for one. That leads to the inference that you don't really care about a fair playing field and all your protestations are really just pearl clutching. The only way this gets you there in a logically consistent manner is if you consider the trans thing such a greater or equivalent moral wrong to outright cheating, that it is morally worthy of a stricter structure.

Second, from a strictly utilitarian point of view, we know it's not true because they do manage to do it on the college level. If ECNL and MLS Next soccer are really so important, we have a guidepost for how it would work.

Third, given California issues birth certificates to trans kids now on demand, you have the same utilitarian problem with the trans individual. You would need to establish a protocol to test and hunt down anyone suspected of being trans, which again carriers farther than we do for PEDS. You have not articulated what that protocol would be or how it would be effected, because playing with a birth certificate issued by a state government would legally immunize you otherwise.

Fourth, as in the case of the Utah girl previously discussed, such as system, short of universal testing, sets up the externality that a cis girl can be innocently accused and subject to testing for being trans. Unlike the Utah situation, since school records are not an option, such an examination would be much more intrusive.
Click to expand...
Fifth, it doesn't help you with the FTM. They could have a birth certificate that remains unchanged and reads "F". you have no mechanism to check the testosterone level of the FTM. You gonna make it so that any girl that looks "butch" can be accused of being trans and subjected to a drug test? If they have facial hair? I pity those of us with DD whose might be tomboys or beautifically challenged. Better make sure you send them all onto the soccer fields with bows or ponytails and shave their legs and facial hair because you wouldn't want one of them to be accused.
 
Jose has returned said:
The same people that were 100% wrong on the C19 discussions are the same folks wrong here.....but trust science
Click to expand...
This is ostensibly incorrect. EOTL was one of the strongest gotta lock down everything proponents and I was from mid March firmly in the why are you overreacting/open the schools back up camp. Dad4 was the biggest masker and COVID authoritarian (going so far as to favor the Australia and China approaches and having neighbor inform on neighbor) yet is on the same side of the table as a bunch of others who opposed covid restrictions such as kicking, marspeed, kicker, marspeed, crush. I can't remember what sockma and soccer dad & ref came out on. The critique on dad4 is he was all trust the experts on COVID but here has run away from it.
 
Grace T. said:
This is ostensibly incorrect. EOTL was one of the strongest gotta lock down everything proponents and I was from mid March firmly in the why are you overreacting/open the schools back up camp. Dad4 was the biggest masker and COVID authoritarian (going so far as to favor the Australia and China approaches and having neighbor inform on neighbor) yet is on the same side of the table as a bunch of others who opposed covid restrictions such as kicking, marspeed, kicker, marspeed, crush. I can't remember what sockma and soccer dad & ref came out on. The critique on dad4 is he was all trust the experts on COVID but here has run away from it.
Click to expand...
We have lot's of parents watching the forum. It's sickening to see what's happen to our country. Pay to play is killing kids and adults and that is not satire. A small group of sick deities have infiltrated our country and into many souls. I was and will always be 100% against jabs. I was 100% against the masks. My dd and I got yelled at and screamed at home depot. The others were against mandating me and family to take the poison and I do appreciate that but it's not what I stood up for. We were blocked access to everything, which should have been a huge red flag for everyone here but no, everyone went on with their lives as others got fired or locked out. I knew this was a bio weapon. Twitter is going to release the truth and let me tell you, you and all the parents are going to be pissed off and rightfully so. Dad needs to come back to the Vaccine section and answer to his wrongs and eat crow. If he or anyone comes over to eat crow, we can all work together so this NEVER happens again. I won't share anymore about the jabs except over at the jab section. Carry on.
 
crush said:
We have lot's of parents watching the forum. It's sickening to see what's happen to our country. Pay to play is killing kids and adults and that is not satire. A small group of sick deities have infiltrated our country and into many souls. I was and will always be 100% against jabs. I was 100% against the masks. My dd and I got yelled at and screamed at home depot. The others were against mandating me and family to take the poison and I do appreciate that but it's not what I stood up for. We were blocked access to everything, which should have been a huge red flag for everyone here but no, everyone went on with their lives as others got fired or locked out. I knew this was a bio weapon. Twitter is going to release the truth and let me tell you, you and all the parents are going to be pissed off and rightfully so. Dad needs to come back to the Vaccine section and answer to his wrongs and eat crow. If he or anyone comes over to eat crow, we can all work together so this NEVER happens again. I won't share anymore about the jabs except over at the jab section. Carry on.
Click to expand...
Dad, when sane, is done with the vaccine section.

Not to worry, you and I still disagree on it. But no point in discussing it. Not sure there ever was.
 
dad4 said:
Dad, when sane, is done with the vaccine section.

Not to worry, you and I still disagree on it. But no point in discussing it. Not sure there ever was.
Click to expand...
I get it. Were all tired. I helped a few people stop after the first jab and I helped a lot not take the boosters and I feel awesome. My best pal thanked me the other day. I lost a very dear friend because he didn't head the warnings. Let's both stay on topic though. I know I sometimes mess up and go sideways on threads and bring myself into the posts. Shame on me for that.
 
I love Tesla. Dude wanted us all to be free and these bankers had other plans for our lives. Crooks & Killers. One of them invented Big Harma and cancer. The "all natural" medicine was mocked and kicked out of our country and instead petroleum health care pills were invented. Cancer was man made. Then the same dude started the Cancer Society. That is a freaking trip. No more jumping threads. If my name get's mentioned, I will respond. If no one mentions crush anymore, I will stay on the off topic section waiting for you all to come back and spend time debating again. I love you Dad :)

1677205107979.png
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top