Home School business is growing like crazy. Listen to this guy.
Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
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I never questioned the the use of the word queer. It raised an eyebrow since the word depends on how it’s used and depending on intent can be used as a slur. As written above the word I questioned was “creature” (it’s in black and white man) which is a word that’s been used in the past to dehumanize the lgbtq community
at this point there are only too possible conclusions. One you have a mental condition akin to dyslexia that does severely impairs your reading comprehension. Perhaps that’s why you are so touchy when your reading comprehension issues are pointed out? Perhaps that’s also why it takes you quite a while to get a point and you tend to go around in circles. It would make sense therefore you took refuge in mathematics. Some of those conditions are accompanied by anxiety conditions which would explain your Covid panic. If so I’m sorry, you have my extreme sympathy for your disability, and I would try to be more courteous with you and your disability than you’ve shown to the trans kids. You see my issue isn’t with your position on the issue (kicking and wooble for example hold similar views but have never said anything questionably bigoted and others may make ignorant but well intentioned comments). My issue has been some things you’ve said which are just clearly bigoted such as the all trans are obvious remark, the creature, mansplaining gayness to a gay person or now making assumptions about what all trans people want. A disability would explain all that in which case I’m sorry and you have my sympathy.
the other possibility is you totally know what you are doing throwing a words like creature and avoiding an explanation like you did just now. It would make use of the word queer questionable as well. You are a blatant bigot but don’t want to go all out because it would shadow the virtuous image you cultivate such as on this and Covid but you want to throw around your bigotry so you step right up to the line. In which case you are a horrible human being, among the worst of the worst, far worse than anything eotl had don’t around here, particularly after the entire authoritarian thing
so which is it?
Happened again
SILVER ELITE
Of course the work isn't done..and it will never be done. Who is going to do the research? Who will fund the research required? This thread has bobbed and weaved it's way into the ridiculous. Thanks for the invite though. At last check, biology is a thing.
Actually a girl is slower and weaker than they would have been if born a boy. That does not mean the girl is slower and weaker "than boys". The problem you keep having is that you're paranoid that elite male athletes will "go trans", when the reality is that there has never been a trans girl in history who has been meaningfully stronger or faster than her teammates, or otherwise dominated girls elite soccer. Sure, they will be better than your daughter who is a terrible soccer player, but so are most biological girls.
It is comical that people like you spent so much time telling people that youth sports "isn't about winning and losing", but that youth sports "is about development" and making children "mentally tough", but now you pretend that winning and losing is the only about winning and losing at the kiddie level and that you need to protect your emotionally feeble child from even the slightest amount of perceived adversity? The truth is there will never be a trans girl who deprives your daughter of a trophy. She will fail to win trophies because she just isn't good enough.
You are absolutely the wrong person to be cis-splaining what trans people want. Maybe go back to mansplaining about how people who aren't currently playing in ECNL should not opine on who should and shouldn't play in ECNL - other than yourself of course.
@Grace T. in one of your posts, you mentioned that you agreed with me that kids should not be making these transition decisions too early in life. I think you said under 18 if I am not mistaken.
If that is the case, wouldn’t it be better for these children and young people to continue to play sports based on their Biological Sex rather than their Gender Identity until they are mature enough to make those forever decisions?
You also mentioned scholarships and things at schools related to Title IX. It is currently based on Biological Sex, not Gender. How do you propose this occurs? For the revenue producing sports at Universities, Football and Basketball, Trans Men would have little or no opportunities to participate. Even Soccer, Baseball, Hockey, Rugby it would be difficult for a Trans Man to participate in those sports. For Women’s College athletics which are not revenue producing, with limited scholarships, and the landscape that will certainly change over the next few years giving the NCAA less oversight, and Mega Conferences being created, it’s going to put a squeeze on team funding at universities. Are you saying we should have Men’s, Women’s, Trans Women’s, and Trans Men’s Sports? Or have Coed Teams? Trans Teams?
How do you legislate and manage 100’s of genders, scholarships, to be inclusive of every single permutation. Where do you draw the line? There will always be some unrepsented or underrepresented group as Gender seems to be a very fluid prospect and people can and have changed their Gender.
This may offend people, and I apologize. Biological Males and Females are not equal or the same physically…reproductive organs, skeletal and muscularity differences, etc. We all learned this in Biology. This has not changed in the last few years. It’s why you can test bones and find out the Biological Sex, but you can’t test for how somebody feels, thinks, or identifies. The science has not changed and it can’t be changed because of how somebody feels or identifies or believes. Physics has not changed, Chemistry has not changed. The sciences are objective, not subjective.
I truly feel for people who are going through this, and believe as you said they need safe spaces, kindness, and respect. It’s a tough road. I also think everyone should have the same opportunities in life. That said, Biological Males should not be competing against Biological Females in sports. There are unfair physical advantages, and safety concerns that at this point in time can’t be evened.
If that is the case, wouldn’t it be better for these children and young people to continue to play sports based on their Biological Sex rather than their Gender Identity until they are mature enough to make those forever decisions?
You also mentioned scholarships and things at schools related to Title IX. It is currently based on Biological Sex, not Gender. How do you propose this occurs? For the revenue producing sports at Universities, Football and Basketball, Trans Men would have little or no opportunities to participate. Even Soccer, Baseball, Hockey, Rugby it would be difficult for a Trans Man to participate in those sports. For Women’s College athletics which are not revenue producing, with limited scholarships, and the landscape that will certainly change over the next few years giving the NCAA less oversight, and Mega Conferences being created, it’s going to put a squeeze on team funding at universities. Are you saying we should have Men’s, Women’s, Trans Women’s, and Trans Men’s Sports? Or have Coed Teams? Trans Teams?
How do you legislate and manage 100’s of genders, scholarships, to be inclusive of every single permutation. Where do you draw the line? There will always be some unrepsented or underrepresented group as Gender seems to be a very fluid prospect and people can and have changed their Gender.
This may offend people, and I apologize. Biological Males and Females are not equal or the same physically…reproductive organs, skeletal and muscularity differences, etc. We all learned this in Biology. This has not changed in the last few years. It’s why you can test bones and find out the Biological Sex, but you can’t test for how somebody feels, thinks, or identifies. The science has not changed and it can’t be changed because of how somebody feels or identifies or believes. Physics has not changed, Chemistry has not changed. The sciences are objective, not subjective.
I truly feel for people who are going through this, and believe as you said they need safe spaces, kindness, and respect. It’s a tough road. I also think everyone should have the same opportunities in life. That said, Biological Males should not be competing against Biological Females in sports. There are unfair physical advantages, and safety concerns that at this point in time can’t be evened.
Look, if you’re bound and determined to see homophobia, I’m sure you’re smart enough to invent a way to see it. Sure. “Creature” is now a homophobic slur. Along the same lines, ”potato” is now an insult for assimilated Native Americans, and “handkerchief” is clearly misogynistic. If you don’t like it, take it up with the water buffalo at Penn.
My point is that you are not behaving like a sentient being. You’re just reflexively dividing the world into your tribe and everyone else. That’s the logic of a pack animal. When your son wants a challenging goalie training, you have no trouble seeing that the girls can’t keep up. But when the same girl is trying out for a team, you suddenly think that the athletic gap isn’t so big after all. Absolutely no logical consistency, but 100% perfect loyalty.
As I said before, the insult was tribalist.
So you're saying that a biology textbook, but not a psychology or psychiatry textbook, must dictate who can and cannot compete in a kiddie soccer game? And since when is playing a kiddie sport a "forever decision" on par with having gender reassignment surgery? Why is it that private companies like ECNL and the clubs that comprise it should not be allowed to decide who may participate in their own league? Are you anti-free market? And wtf are you talking about with respect to "100s of genders"? You are completely paranoid. Were you one of those people who was afraid that gay marriage would lead to a slippery slope in which people would marry animals?
If "safety concerns" are a real problem, please identify a single instance in the entire history of planet earth in which a trans girl unfairly injured a cis-player in competitive soccer? And if safety is such a scary problem, why does co-ed soccer even exist? And why are you ignoring the actual safety problems that arise from the abuse that trans girls must face playing on boys' teams, which is far worse?
This is absolute joke.
There are actually a couple of youth soccer players out there. Agree though it is rare. I really don’t think most people are paranoid, phobic, or hateful of Trans People. The Lia Thomas swimming controversy brought up a lot of issues regarding fairness in sports competitions between Trans Women and Biological Women. There are other instances as well particularly in Track & Field and XCountry.
Having an issue with the fairness in competition does not make somebody paranoid, phobic, or hateful. It just means it is different than somebody else’s belief. Having a different belief does not make you a bigot, racist, or phobic, etc. It’s not hate speech, it’s not micro aggressions, or assault. People are entitled to their perspectives and beliefs.
That’s what this thread is about right?
The Lia Thomas situation has absolutely nothing to do with kiddie soccer. Nothing. Using Lia Thomas as a means to rationalize depriving children of an opportunity to grow up in an inclusive society and play team sports that don't matter, however, absolutely is paranoid, phobic and hateful. Using individual sports as another means to rationalize depriving children of the opportunity to grow up in an inclusive society is also paranoid, phobic and hateful. The problem with people like you and the others here is that you decided that you don't want trans girls playing any sport with other girls and are reverse engineer excuses to justify it. For example, you have just gone from complaining that "safety reasons" justify why trans girls should not play sports with other girls, yet now you're talking about swimming, track and cross country where "safety" is absolute bs as an excuse.
If you're unwilling to even look at the actual, specific issues and interests that are relevant to everyone in each sport and age group, but instead keep relying on a college swimmer's unique situation to reverse engineer excuses to rationalize why it's ok to force a child to get the shit kicked out of them playing boys' sports with zero regard for their interests, well, yeah, you're a hateful person.
Let me know when you're actually ready to consider ALL the actual safety interests that apply to trans girls in youth sports, instead of just the ones you are using to rationalize a decision you already made. If you really cared, you would realize there aren't any real safety problems when you allow trans girls to play ECNL because there are a ridiculous number of guardrails in place to protect everyone, and which have been 100% effective, but there are huge safety problems when you force trans girls to play with shitbag boys and surrounded by their shitbag parents. There also aren't safety problems as they relate to women's NCAA soccer, or any problems, for that matter.
And btw, dad4 has made it very clear that he is transphobic. Mocking gender pronouns and labeling Brittney Griner a man are pretty clear indicators. So too is the absolute refusal to acknowledge that there are legitimate reasons that support allowing trans participation in youth sports. It is one thing to acknowledge those interests but believe they are outweighed by other factors, but he refuses to even accept that the views of the other side have any legitimate basis. That is very clearly transphobic.
Wow. A normal person would have responded “no slur intended. Sorry if you took it that way”. But that’s not what you chose to do which leads to either the conclusion you are disabled and can’t understand what you are doing (which would make a lot of sense in a lot of different ways) or you do and are doubling down If the latter wow man. Wow. Didn’t think I’d ever see that from a teacher. Mouth on the floor.
As to tribalism it speaks to how far gone you are on this issue that you can’t see how my position is actually a deep betrayal of my so-called tribe. To the point actually my relative is very pissed off at me I publicly took the position. Again wow man wow
I hope for your sake you are disabled and just don’t want to come forward publicly on it.
On the youth level? No because what you’ll have happening is that a mtf who is basically at school living as a girl (complete with the hair bow) then has to show up to her youth male team and while wearing her hair bow play with the fellas. Seriously given that in la I’ve heard black boys called the n word on the field by players and parents, how do you think that’s going to go??? My son has a ftm on his middle school team in an otherwise very progressive school (which is why the ftm is at that school). My son is the captain of the team. Even at the progressive school he’s had to knock some heads to keep the boys in line with this guy. They have an autistic kid on the team too and it’s been the same struggle. Teen boys even evolved progressive ones can be rough.
There’s also the issue that if they are going to transition at 18 you want them to be absolutely sure. That requires them living full time in the gender and having as many experiences as possible so they are 100% sure (not switching out of the hair bow to play sports as a male). If they are going to make such a costly sacrifice we want as much certainty as possible. Therefore it doesn’t make sense to exclude them at the youth level because we don’t care about the level playing field. We don’t go after the cheaters at the very minimum so it doesn’t make sense from either a safety or fairness point of view to enforce against the trans but not anyone else
Ps your thoughts are thoughtful and I appreciate them. The scholarship thing I agree would be a mess which is why they haven’t gone there. But if the science shows we can’t balance at the college level I think they will be forced to confront that. It will happen in some sports which I think the science will show cannot be balanced.
Thanks for the reply. Did not mean to trigger you or anyone else.
Forever decisions are making changes to your body. Many of the changes are irreversible. Yes I believe in Psychology and Psychologists. The study of the mind does not change objective biological facts. Do you believe in gravity? How about natural selection, evolution, dinosaurs? You learned about that stuff in books too.
I’m not talking about kiddie youth, coed, recreational sports where Biological Sex and physiology does not play a part in the events yet. My daughter, played coed Tball, soccer, basketball, etc. as a very young girl.
I am talking about competitive sports and when physiology make a difference.
Since you are curious…I don’t care what gender somebody identifies with, or your Biological Sex is, what pronouns you use, I will call you whatever you want, just don’t get mad at me if I accidentally misgender you because I can’t read your mind and 49 years of experiences tell my brain you are a woman, I am for gay marriage (Family member is Gay and married and would not support anything that would get in the way of her living her best life and being with the person she loves), I am for people doing what they want, having personal freedoms as long as it does not infringe on others, and for people not being discriminated against. I’m absolutely pro free market, capitalism, and against socialism, communism, insider trading, fraud, trafficking, and a slew of other things. I believe Abortion should be used as a last resort in cases of harm to the mother, rape/molestation, or severe hardship, not as a form of birth control, that’s my opinion, but I also believe in Women’s rights to chose and Men should mostly stay out of the conversation. I believe in Securing our Borders, but feel we need have better programs for Asylum Seekers, I believe we need to do more for our Homeless problem, affordable housing, and I believe Fentynal is a huge issue for our kids. I believe our funding Ukraine is a mistake, think you should salute the American Flag, not kneel…Biden/Harris are buffoons, Trump is not the answer, we should have term limits, politicians should not enrich themselves, Fauci should be in jail, and many others. I mostly believe in liberty and people being able to live their lives the way they want without unwanted government oversight and intervention. People should be evaluated on who they are and what they do, not by their outward appearances.
And I believe in Santa Clause because if you don’t believe you won’t receive.
I am very much against Biological Males competing against Biological Females in Competitive Sports based on the physical advantage Biological Males have. There are Biological and Genetic Facts that support this. Does not matter the sport. I am not phobic, paranoid, or hateful. I have a different view than you.
It’s funny how some people are so intolerant and emotional regarding other peoples beliefs if they differ from their own. Because I believe that Biological Males have an advantage over Biological Females, or I believe a Scientific Text Book or what I learned in school or maybe even heaven forbid the Bible…I also Google and search the internet for information, read, etc.
This is keeping me entertained…home sick the last couple of days.
“People like you” you don’t even know me…Since your assuming things about me, I’ll assume you drive a Subaru with a Bernie sticker on it. That was a joke….
The Lia Thomas situation is very appropriate to bring up and in this conversation. Her Biological advantages enabled her to win a championship and set records in competitive sports.
Do you want Lia Thomas excluded from the conversation because it is the most singularly appropriate example of Biological Males having physical advantages over Biological Females in sports? You can’t chose which facts to include and exclude. Opportunities for Biological Women were taken, and that’s ok?
They did change the standards afterwards to account for the situation. Raising lia is fair game but you’d still have to address why the revised standards don’t do the trick. It’s quite possible they don’t. It’s being studied now. I suspect when the science is in swimming will be one of those sports we cannot balance and since it’s clocked it’s easier to separate into Separate division which would also address the ftm problem. But we aren’t there yet.
The new FINA standards are sound, and they work.
Up to 12, the rules are relaxed. After 12, the rules are strict. If you didn't begin transition before 12, then you are not allowed to enter a women's events.
The main limitation is that other sports have not adopted them.
thirteenknots
SILVER ELITE
You just identified a subset of my CHEATING Premise.
ABUSE....!
Letting a MTF " Human " play in Female sports is not only
CHEATING, it could become a case for ABUSE with long term
affects.
I note the fina rules changes also created a new division, the details of which have yet to be worked out and are expected shortly. I note also the fina rules equitably also catch the hormonal and genetic developmentally different but otherwise cis females. Some with with genetic and hormonal imbalances that are not treated by age 12 (even if discovered late) will no longer be allowed to rebalance and will need to play in the new division (to which btw the ftm are also being assigned). It entirely possible hypothetically let’s say you all have an extremely gifted athletic daughter but you later discover an aberration that they will lose their f status. I note the fina rules if widely adopted will have the opposite effect in ma vie en rose cases of rushing forward treatment rather than waiting. I also note the rules are being looked at again from a diving and sync swimming perspective as the medical panels have pointed out the situations may be different. Not ideal. It’s going to be tweaked further I’d predict (one topic under discussion is if 12 was really the right age cut off). But at a minimum it’s science based.
The new division is a good idea for individual events. For team sports, I don't see how any small institution could make it work.
I doubt the genetic anomalies sneak up on people like that. They all come with genital malformation. It seems unlikely that the doctor would fail to notice a malformed vulva every year for a decade.