Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[dad4]

Again it’s not my fault you have reading comprehension issues and can’t follow that we were discussing college aged athletes where we actually test. And it’s not my fault we care about some results and test and don’t care about others and don’t test. Don’t like the inconsistency? Very simple: test.

But for now on the youth level we don’t test and don’t care about the cheaters. And in any case you said it best: it’s about the hairbow, not the training. They are not soccer robots. It was after all YOUR POINT. Not my fault you want to backtrack now.

So, going for the reading comprehension insult because you got pinned down. Yet again.

For U13-U18, you decided to say that you support inclusion of teenage XY athletes in girls youth leagues, even if they are not on any kind of testosterone lowering medication. That means you support a 17 year old, post-puberty, XY athlete in a U17 girls league. Fine. Let’s look at what that means.

Two pages back you conceded that the goalie risks injury if a 17 year old female goalie tries to block the shots in a U17 boys game. Ok. How is that any different if you put a 17 year old XY forward in a U17 girls game? The kid shooting the ball and the girl blocking it are exactly the same. His leg isn’t any weaker, and the girl’s wrists aren’t any stronger. You’ll get exactly the same injuries.

 

[crush]

Take your sophomoric memes over to off topic.
Such an old white boomer…

What would sites like these look like if everyone posted dumb ass pictures every time they thought they were funny? Thankfully most people don’t copy and paste every dumb ass thing they think is funny. Go back to the troll section of this forum.

Meme trigger you?

 

[Grace T.]

So, going for the reading comprehension insult because you got pinned down. Yet again.

For U13-U18, you decided to say that you support inclusion of teenage XY athletes in girls youth leagues, even if they are not on any kind of testosterone lowering medication. That means you support a 17 year old, post-puberty, XY athlete in a U17 girls league. Fine. Let’s look at what that means.

Two pages back you conceded that the goalie risks injury if a 17 year old female goalie tries to block the shots in a U17 boys game. Ok. How is that any different if you put a 17 year old XY forward in a U17 girls game? The kid shooting the ball and the girl blocking it are exactly the same. His leg isn’t any weaker, and the girl’s wrists aren’t any stronger. You’ll get exactly the same injuries.

I recall you had a tendency to do this with Covid. Familiar with all your dirty tricks by now. Like hearing what you want. Putting words in people’s mouth. Or decrying insults after you drop them like “ crazy “ while mine is just a critique of your reading comprehension skills. You want an insult? How’s this? Same old garbage from you.

in any case I never conceded that it was especially dangerous if a 17 year old girl tried to block a males shot. In fact that happens all the time in gk camps which I was complaining about not because of safety but because the training for the boys suffers.Yes there are some gk coaches that separate them but that has more to do that it slows down the training for the boys. And not all of them do it. Otherwise there are a lot of gk coaches around town opening themselves up for lawsuits. Someone better send them a memo.

In any case we already covered safetyism a n. It’s not a legit complaint until you separate my sons friend from the premature 6 ft 13 year old and kick the early bloomer into a higher bracket. Further that would seem to be a better argument to stop the mixing at Rec where the gks are less skilled than at the ecnl level you are quite selfishly worried about

you always lash out when cornered or embarrassed. I suspect you regret the all about the bow comment. You said it yourself: it’s about the bow not the training at youth levels. They aren’t soccer robots.

 

[Woobie06]

They absolutely do not police peds on the youth level. Name me the last person that got caught in a regime where they don’t test. For example, I can tell you the problem is rife in the higher levels of boys high school football in Los Angeles and I suspect from having talked to families in that world nearly 1/5 is on peds. The studies have shown among boys all sports it could be as high as 10% by the time they graduate and girls 2%. Don’t talk to me about meritocracy until you sus out the cheaters

What even is a meritocracy in sports? My sons friend is a finer soccer player than most mls next players but was rejected by the teams because of his height and corresponding shooting power. That meritocratic? Freakonomics pointed out a majority of youth high level hockey players are January/February birthdays. That meritocratic that you are born in a month near the birth line? My kid was impaired early on by his adhd condition and coaches unwillingness to deal with it. Adhd kids mature slower than other boys and he’s near the age line anyway. That meritocratic he can’t play in the immediate year down? If he could he works hard enough and is skilled enough he’d likely be an academy player.

your argument basically amounts to it’s unfair because it feels that way to me. That just emotions it’s not logic. Facts don’t care about your feelings. The reasoned way to look at this is as a disability. The question we have to answer is are there accommodations we can give that are reasonable. Not the boys should play with boys and girls should play with girls because we are talking here about kids whose brains show physiological signs of the opposite gender…they are almost literally the opposite brain trapped in the wrong body.

for The youth level we don’t police peds and we don’t enforce a level meritocratic playing field. The answer is easy: let them play. As dad4 said, the hair bow is what is important, because they aren’t soccer robots. For the college level and higher the question is where can we put them: does treatment reduce at least a portion of athletes down so they can compete fairly with the women, is the change so slight they can compete with the men (this part has been answered already…for people moving in both directions the answer is generally no since being on testosterone is a ped) or is the difference between both so vast that you need to put them in separate leagues. For some individual sports like running wrestling and swimming the answer is we probably will need separate leagues but we aren’t there yet. The data isn’t fully in yet. For team sport the answer is likely the impact on a team (other than perhaps basketball) is so minimal that it doesn’t make a difference of performance is otherwise sufficiently reduced. The science will answer the question except for a few tough cases most notably women’s basketball, cycling and rowing.

I agree with you that there are youths that are taking PED’s, I agreed with that in an earlier post. I’m sure there are, and as I said there will be cheating in sports when W’s, $$$, Scholarships, and NIL is concerned. Coaches cheat, use ineligible players, parents lie, birth certificates, etc. People and kids get caught, and when they do there are consequences. We talk about the cost of youth sports, how much will a testing governance model add to the already ludicrous cost of youth sports. I don’t think it is feasible. Cheaters are going to cheat. They are going to find a way. Youth, HS, College, Pro Leagues I think try their best with the resources they have to prevent cheating (unless we believe the NFL is scripted). Most everyone wants a fair and even competition. In Biological Women’s Sports, allowing Biological Males participants with KNOWN physical advantages to participate is unfair to Biological Women. In team sports (soccer, BBall, Water Polo, LAX, etc.) I believe it could be unsafe.

it’s not because I believe or feel it unfair, it’s because it IS unfair to have a Biological Male to compete directly against a Biological Female. It’s not even a question up for debate is it?

if your argument is cheating occurs, creates advantages for the cheaters, there is no oversight in youth sports, and what is the difference if a Biological Male is playing in a Biological Female League since the frequency is low, I can sort of see that. The difference to me is that we don’t knowingly allow competitors with unfair advantages to compete. Many a HS and college program with games and championship wins vacated due to cheating and improprieties.

You made my point when discussing you son’s friend who is not tall enough and does not shoot hard enough. He does not fit the criteria the coach is looking. It sucks, but not everyone makes the team. Yes, in my mind it is a meritocracy because the coaching staff is looking for the best players to help the team to get the best results at this moment in time. Unfortunately that young person did not make the cut for that team and was not what the coach was looking for. Even MJ got cut from his HS BBall team.

I disagree with saying at the youth level let them just play. At the very young ages, where coed leagues exist than fine. But at a point there is a distinct physical advantage that emerges for Biological Young Males that creates and unfair advantage towards Young Biological Women. That point is not the same for all when dealing with Puberty. How do you manage that?

I also think it is a very dangerous and a slippery slope when young people, kids, who are not fully developed in any way physically, mentally, or emotionally are allowed to make life altering, life changing and irreversible decisions to alter their bodies. I personally do not believe young people have the capacity to fully understand the long term and permanent consequences or outcomes.

Why don’t we let kids vote in elections? Why don’t we let elementary school kids drive? Why do we have age limits on entering the military, drinking ages, smoking, getting tattoos, etc.

These rules are in place because young people typically do not make the best decisions. They need to mature to make the best long term and correct decisions for themselves.

Kids and young adults change ALOT…Its hard to be a kid or young adult today with social media, tik toks, influencers, cyber bullying, all the BS kids have to deal with today. I don’t think kids and young adults should be making lifetime decisions too early.

 

[Grace T.]

I agree with you that there are youths that are taking PED’s, I agreed with that in an earlier post. I’m sure there are, and as I said there will be cheating in sports when W’s, $$$, Scholarships, and NIL is concerned. Coaches cheat, use ineligible players, parents lie, birth certificates, etc. People and kids get caught, and when they do there are consequences. We talk about the cost of youth sports, how much will a testing governance model add to the already ludicrous cost of youth sports. I don’t think it is feasible. Cheaters are going to cheat. They are going to find a way. Youth, HS, College, Pro Leagues I think try their best with the resources they have to prevent cheating (unless we believe the NFL is scripted). Most everyone wants a fair and even competition. In Biological Women’s Sports, allowing Biological Males participants with KNOWN physical advantages to participate is unfair to Biological Women. In team sports (soccer, BBall, Water Polo, LAX, etc.) I believe it could be unsafe.

it’s not because I believe or feel it unfair, it’s because it IS unfair to have a Biological Male to compete directly against a Biological Female. It’s not even a question up for debate is it?

if your argument is cheating occurs, creates advantages for the cheaters, there is no oversight in youth sports, and what is the difference if a Biological Male is playing in a Biological Female League since the frequency is low, I can sort of see that. The difference to me is that we don’t knowingly allow competitors with unfair advantages to compete. Many a HS and college program with games and championship wins vacated due to cheating and improprieties.

You made my point when discussing you son’s friend who is not tall enough and does not shoot hard enough. He does not fit the criteria the coach is looking. It sucks, but not everyone makes the team. Yes, in my mind it is a meritocracy because the coaching staff is looking for the best players to help the team to get the best results. Unfortunately that young person did not make the cut for that team and was not what the coach was looking for.

I disagree with saying at the youth level let them just play. At the very young ages, where coed leagues exist than fine. But at a point there is a distinct physical advantage that emerges for Biological Young Males that creates and unfair advantage towards Young Biological Women. That point is not the same for all when dealing with Puberty. How do you manage that?

I also think it is a very dangerous and a slippery slope when young people, kids, who are not fully developed in any way physically, mentally, or emotionally are allowed to make life altering, life changing and irreversible decisions to alter their bodies. I personally do not believe young people have the capacity to fully understand the long term and permanent consequences or outcomes.

Why don’t we let kids vote in elections? Why don’t we let elementary school kids drive? Why do we have age limits on entering the military, drinking ages, smoking, getting tattoos, etc.

These rules are in place because young people typically do not make the best decisions. They need to mature to make the best long term and correct decisions for themselves.

Kids and young adults change ALOT…Its hard to be a kid or young adult today with social media, tik toks, influencers, cyber bullying, all the BS kids have to deal with today. I don’t think kids and young adults should be making lifetime decisions too early.

The cost is not a legit argument. If a level playing field is important then testing important. It’s not good enough to give the cheaters a pass and say cheaters are going to cheat but then go after the trans kids. You are essentially singling them out. Again where was the last youth soccer player not on a national team that was caught

your argument basically amounts “to it’s not fair because I think it’s not fair”. Again facts don’t care about how you feel. The correct way to look at this is as a disability and to see what accommodations if any can be reasonably extended

as to meritocracy you basically made the argument that it depends on some arbitrary line on the calendar drawn by a governing board (mine went from one of the oldest to youngest with a stroke of a pen) and whether you are lucky to be born in the relevant month. That’s not a meritocracy. It’s arbitrary. It’s artificial lines drawn in the sand.

I agree life altering changes should not be encouraged for the under 18. That why there shouldn’t be a performance reduction test there and since we don’t care about a level playing in most sports (some individual sports and national teams excepted) it doesn’t matter if they are included. As dad4 has said at the youth level it’s about the hair bow, not the training. They aren’t soccer robots.

 

[dad4]

Look at your wrists. They are slimmer than a man's wrists.

Find a mirror. Look at your neck. It is thinner than a man's neck.

You don't put girls as keeper in a U17 boy's game because they would break bones.

That is true, even if the broken bones belong to someone who really, truly believes they are a boy. Gender identity doesn't override physics.

Yeah but you could but the U19 girls in with the U15 boys hypothetically.

In any case, the scenario I outlined for you isn't about the game. It's about training.

I say "You don't put girls as keeper in a U17 boy's game because they would break bones. ". You quote my post and write "Yeah".

Normal humans would interpret that as an agreement that putting girl keepers in a U17 boys game would result in more broken bones.

Do the above words mean something different on your planet?

 

[Grace T.]

I say "You don't put girls as keeper in a U17 boy's game because they would break bones. ". You quote my post and write "Yeah".

Normal humans would interpret that as an agreement that putting girl keepers in a U17 boys game would result in more broken bones.

Do the above words mean something different on your planet?

Reading comprehension. The “yeah” referred to your last sentence that gender identity doesn’t override physics (as is typical in correct English grammar). Not your safetyisn. I then proceeded to how it could be balanced under the scenario kicking outlined. And I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that it is a reading comprehension issue and a desperate need on your part to hear what you want to hear rather than bad faith

you then proceeded to object to kickings scheme on the ground that it was about the bow not the training and that kids weren’t soccer robots. Which is the exact point mtfs on the youth level where we don’t test are making.

 

[Woobie06]

The cost is not a legit argument. If a level playing field is important then testing important. It’s not good enough to give the cheaters a pass and say cheaters are going to cheat but then go after the trans kids. You are essentially singling them out. Again where was the last youth soccer player not on a national team that was caught

your argument basically amounts “to it’s not fair because I think it’s not fair”. Again facts don’t care about how you feel. The correct way to look at this is as a disability and to see what accommodations if any can be reasonably extended

as to meritocracy you basically made the argument that it depends on some arbitrary line on the calendar drawn by a governing board (mine went from one of the oldest to youngest with a stroke of a pen) and whether you are lucky to be born in the relevant month. That’s not a meritocracy. It’s arbitrary. It’s artificial lines drawn in the sand.

I agree life altering changes should not be encouraged for the under 18. That why there shouldn’t be a performance reduction test there and since we don’t care about a level playing in most sports (some individual sports and national teams excepted) it doesn’t matter if they are included. As dad4 has said at the youth level it’s about the hair bow, not the training. They aren’t soccer robots.

The DA experimented with Bio-Banding a few years ago. Played some games at Silver Lakes and bracketed kids by Height/Weight, and banded them by size, not by chronological age. It was an interesting concept to create more fair competition to eliminate size disparities due to the early pubescent young people.


My daughter was also affected by the age change a few years going to Birth Year only and has a late year birthdate. It is what it is. Laws, rules are never going to make everyone happy. It’s funny, it has actually helped her because she is a grade behind all but one other on her club team, has helped in recruiting getting her in front of coaches earlier at showcases than kids in her grade year, and has essentially been playing “up” a year considering her grad year versus her birth year. It’s not always a bad thing. You have to deal with the situation in front of you and make the best of it. The way we look at it she has an extra year to develop. At the end of the day it has not been a bad thing.

Life is not fair, we all have to deal with it. People are going to cheat or try to cheat…‍♂. Can’t stop it. Happens in all aspects of life, relationships, business, sports, school, you name it. People have cheated since the beginning of time and will until the end of time.

There are sports leagues and teams for people with disabilities…there are national teams for people with disabilities, etc. Are you asking for an ADA for sports? Ankle weights, weight jackets, weighted shin guards, spotting points, playing with less players on a side? Golf, there are handicaps, probably should not call them that. Is an attempt to even the playing field between better players and lower quality players. Lots of cheating, sandbagging, and 11 wedges in golf that I have seen over the years. Are you saying let’s “Handicap” the actual playing of youth sports?

My argument is not “it’s not fair, because it is not fair”….it’s not a feeling. It is a fact that Biological Males have a distinct advantage against Biological Females physically. It’s why there are separate leagues for Biological Males and Females. No WNBA player would be a star in the NBA, there is not a Biological Woman on the planet that could play Offensive Line in the NFL long term and successfully…Those Biological Men are ginormous 6’4+ 300lbs+ and are HUGE. It’s disingenuous to imply Biological Males do not have an Advantage over Biological Females in Sports. What did Dave Chapelle say, if Lebron played in the WNBA he would score 800 points a night…It’s a FACT Biological Males have an advantage. It’s not a feeling.

We will never have a youth sports Utopia. I respect your views and perspectives, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Grace T.]

Reading comprehension. The “yeah” referred to your last sentence that gender identity doesn’t override physics (as is typical in correct English grammar). Not your safetyisn. I then proceeded to how it could be balanced under the scenario kicking outlined. And I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that it is a reading comprehension issue and a desperate need on your part to hear what you want to hear rather than bad faith

you then proceeded to object to kickings scheme on the ground that it was about the bow not the training and that kids weren’t soccer robots. Which is the exact point mtfs on the youth level where we don’t test are making.

Ps kickings scenario presumes a world where we do care about a level playing field. The super tall 13 year old boy is separated from my sons friend. Where we actually care about a meritocracy and a level playing field and the kid that works most and is most skilled moves up. He himself has said it’s not a realistic scenario. Just a thought experiment. But that’s not the balanced world we live in with youth sports. We live in a world with arbitrary age lines drawn in the sand.

 

[Grace T.]

The DA experimented with Bio-Banding a few years ago. Played some games at Silver Lakes and bracketed kids by Height/Weight, and banded them by size, not by chronological age. It was an interesting concept to create more fair competition to eliminate size disparities due to the early pubescent young people.


My daughter was also affected by the age change a few years going to Birth Year only and has a late year birthdate. It is what it is. Laws, rules are never going to make everyone happy. It’s funny, it has actually helped her because she is a grade behind all but one other on her club team, has helped in recruiting getting her in front of coaches earlier at showcases than kids in her grade year, and has essentially been playing “up” a year considering her grad year versus her birth year. It’s not always a bad thing. You have to deal with the situation in front of you and make the best of it. The way we look at it she has an extra year to develop. At the end of the day it has not been a bad thing.

Life is not fair, we all have to deal with it. People are going to cheat or try to cheat…‍♂. Can’t stop it. Happens in all aspects of life, relationships, business, sports, school, you name it. People have cheated since the beginning of time and will until the end of time.

There are sports leagues and teams for people with disabilities…there are national teams for people with disabilities, etc. Are you asking for an ADA for sports? Ankle weights, weight jackets, weighted shin guards, spotting points, playing with less players on a side? Golf, there are handicaps, probably should not call them that. Is an attempt to even the playing field between better players and lower quality players. Lots of cheating, sandbagging, and 11 wedges in golf that I have seen over the years. Are you saying let’s “Handicap” the actual playing of youth sports?

My argument is not “it’s not fair, because it is not fair”….it’s not a feeling. It is a fact that Biological Males have a distinct advantage against Biological Females physically. It’s why there are separate leagues for Biological Males and Females. No WNBA player would be a star in the NBA, there is not a Biological Woman on the planet that could play Offensive Line in the NFL long term and successfully…Those Biological Men are ginormous 6’4+ 300lbs+ and are HUGE. It’s disingenuous to imply Biological Males do not have an Advantage over Biological Females in Sports. What did Dave Chapelle say, if Lebron played in the WNBA he would score 800 points a night…It’s a FACT Biological Males have an advantage. It’s not a feeling.

We will never have a youth sports Utopia. I respect your views and perspectives, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

The reason there is that physical advantage is because of testosterone. On the youth level is simple…we don’t care about the cheaters using testosterone to get an edge to sus them out. I agree life is not fair which is why I object if you don’t care about the cheaters singling out the trans kids. Aren’t the cheaters after all doing something which is morally wrong? The trans kids aren’t: they are just trying to cope with a bad hand they’ve been deal.

On college where we do test the question is different: is there a way to balance it (through blockers or surgery or hormones) so the mtf bell curve to bell curve no longer has a substantial advantage. You are assuming the answer is no. For some sports that may be true. But you haven’t presented that data which must be done on a sport by sport intervention by intervention basis. And if not, you must create a separate league with separate scholarship funding. Because as you point out the separate men’s and women’s divisions aren’t about meritocracy and finding the best of the best or we’d be living starship troopers. It’s about participation, to which the trans are equally entitled.

 

[dad4]

Reading comprehension. The “yeah” referred to your last sentence that gender identity doesn’t override physics (as is typical in correct English grammar). Not your safetyisn. I then proceeded to how it could be balanced under the scenario kicking outlined. And I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that it is a reading comprehension issue and a desperate need on your part to hear what you want to hear rather than bad faith

you then proceeded to object to kickings scheme on the ground that it was about the bow not the training and that kids weren’t soccer robots. Which is the exact point mtfs on the youth level where we don’t test are making.

Second interpretation. Tribalism.

If I ask whether girl goal keepers can be included in GK training, your answer is "No. My son is a GK. Female GKs can't keep up. Adding weak players to GK training would harm the tribe."

If I ask whether mtf athletes can play in girls leagues, your answer is "I personally identify as queer. Trans girls are members of my tribe. Tribal members should get to play wherever they want"

It has nothing at all to do with logic or facts. You're just reflexively protecting your identity groups.

Say hi to your twin, EOTL.

 

[Grace T.]

The reason there is that physical advantage is because of testosterone. On the youth level is simple…we don’t care about the cheaters using testosterone to get an edge to sus them out. I agree life is not fair which is why I object if you don’t care about the cheaters singling out the trans kids. Aren’t the cheaters after all doing something which is morally wrong? The trans kids aren’t: they are just trying to cope with a bad hand they’ve been deal.

On college where we do test the question is different: is there a way to balance it (through blockers or surgery or hormones) so the mtf bell curve to bell curve no longer has a substantial advantage. You are assuming the answer is no. For some sports that may be true. But you haven’t presented that data which must be done on a sport by sport intervention by intervention basis. And if not, you must create a separate league with separate scholarship funding. Because as you point out the separate men’s and women’s divisions aren’t about meritocracy and finding the best of the best or we’d be living starship troopers. It’s about participation, to which the trans are equally entitled.

Ps the question that shouldn’t be asked is what would Lebron do if he put on a wig and played in the wnba. That’s a stupid question. There are other questions that have to be asked. What if Lebron is on testosterone blockers? Testosterone blockers and hormones? Any difference if went on them pre puberty? Any difference if on a muscle reducer? Any difference if surgery? Any difference 1, 2, 3 years post surgery? Any difference if he has surgery at 18? 16? What if it’s not Lebron and we conclude we can’t balance LeBron but we can Steve Kerr? What if it’s not Steve Kerr but an already slender boy that has avoided athletic activity to not seem obvious to dad 4 and didn’t get drafted? What if it’s not basketball but track? What if it’s not track but soccer where instead of 1 of 5 they are 1 of 11? What if it’s not soccer but horseback riding? Lebron is the best of the men so naturally Lebron is the best of the women but how many points is too much…200? 40? 20? 10? 2? Where is the line so reduction for the sport no longer provides substantial advantage? It’s not an easy question which is why it’s taking so long and why mistakes like Leah will be made

 

[Grace T.]

Second interpretation. Tribalism.

If I ask whether girl goal keepers can be included in GK training, your answer is "No. My son is a GK. Female GKs can't keep up. Adding weak players to GK training would harm the tribe."

If I ask whether mtf athletes can play in girls leagues, your answer is "I personally identify as queer. Trans girls are members of my tribe. Tribal members should get to play wherever they want"

It has nothing at all to do with logic or facts. You're just reflexively protecting your identity groups.

Say hi to your twin, EOTL.

Now that’s bad faith on your part. It always ends that way with you when you are cornered. In situations where we test I’ve said specifically the science may show for some sports you can’t balance. That’s not “play wherever they want”. You do have to furnish them a place to play which is level but it may not be in the female division (the difference with youth again is we don’t care about balance because we don’t care about the cheaters). I’ve even been open to saying the strictest standards for the Olympics and national teams should be in place and that may mean Mtfs need to be banned on those levels. All those go against the position of “my tribe”. My tribe (to the extent there is one…see below) would consider me an apostate for not taking the leftist maximalist position that gender is merely a social construct.

you see thats because I do logic and reasoning. I go where the data leads me. As with Covid, it led me to a position of “it’s not the flu” and to go against the “ let’s not worriers…let’s play on at mic” but then when the data was clear early on to oppose the craziness of your camp. Here it’s led me to a fairly centrist place where I disagree with both those on the extreme left and right on the issue (I can’t help it Etol chose to be reasonable and didn’t take the extreme position…he certainly shocked me). What you do is dogma so you assume everyone must do it too. You are in the business of religion, but in your case you disgustingly always mask it with the veneer of science. It’s old timey progressivism and I despise old times progressivism. Their belief system is both hypocritical and horrible. It is a way of looking at things that has unleashed untold damage upon the world.

ps it’s stunningly biased on your part to lump us in all together as some unitary monolith. If you saw the film “bros” you’d see we don’t always agree. I’ll add that to your growing list of horribles

 

[Happened again]

That’s taking a generalization and applying it to specifics. We don’t know the specifics yet of the impact of various treatments on performance. It may also not be a question of identical but “close enough” if the drift from cis male is more severe than the distance from cis female. The studies aren’t in yet and it may be for some sports it’s good enough and for some it isn’t . if you have data you are welcome to present.it’s time to put up or shut up as they say.

did you even look at the post I was responding to? has there been development in medicine that can adjust tendon/muscle/skeletal relationship? If there is I'm way off of my game.

Plenty of data out there that show that while LBM levels decrease in trans women as a result of hormone therapy, yet remains higher than women....even after 36 months of treatment. So there's that. I just love it when "people" talk about hormone therapy without realizing how potentially bad it's for your body. Some of it is reversible, some of it isn't.

 

[Grace T.]

did you even look at the post I was responding to? has there been development in medicine that can adjust tendon/muscle/skeletal relationship? If there is I'm way off of my game.

Plenty of data out there that show that while LBM levels decrease in trans women as a result of hormone therapy, yet remains higher than women....even after 36 months of treatment. So there's that. I just love it when "people" talk about hormone therapy without realizing how potentially bad it's for your body. Some of it is reversible, some of it isn't.

Again you are invited to present sport by sport intervention by intervention. Look forward to it. The reason you can’t is because that work isn’t done. Also it doesn’t have to be identical only close enough and what close enough is is being studied as well. I’ve said for some sports a balance may not be possible (or so restricted only a handful of mtfs are allowed to compete so separate divisions needed anyways)

 

[crush]

More news from the White Boomer, lol! Last week on TS I was called a feminist, a nag, a woman and the son of the devil from hard core Christian Nationalist. These dudes are gnarly. They think I am a woman because I told the men it's ok to clean the house and wash the dishes. They think I'm a woman for how I write, crazy right?

Parents demand answers after transgender woman plays cricket against girls as young as 12: 'Unacceptable'

Multiple parents and coaches have expressed concern that allowing a middle-aged biological male to play cricket against girls as young as 12 is dangerous and inappropriate.

www.foxnews.com

The player, who one coach said "hits the ball harder than any other I have seen in the league," reportedly has accidentally injured people, including an umpire and another player who was unable to play for months after the incident.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

More news from the White Boomer, lol! Last week on TS I was called a feminist, a nag, a woman and the son of the devil from hard core Christian Nationalist. These dudes are gnarly. They think I am a woman because I told the men it's ok to clean the house and wash the dishes. They think I'm a woman for how I write, crazy right?

Parents demand answers after transgender woman plays cricket against girls as young as 12: 'Unacceptable'

Multiple parents and coaches have expressed concern that allowing a middle-aged biological male to play cricket against girls as young as 12 is dangerous and inappropriate.

www.foxnews.com

The player, who one coach said "hits the ball harder than any other I have seen in the league," reportedly has accidentally injured people, including an umpire and another player who was unable to play for months after the incident.

View attachment 15740

you’re a kook too

WTF does that friggin link have anything to do with this thread? Crawl back to your hole, nutter.

 

[Grace T.]

you’re a kook too

WTF does that friggin link have anything to do with this thread? Crawl back to your hole, nutter.

Wait isn’t the takeaway here that an adult is playing with 12 year olds? The entire trans thing is a canard here. You’d have the very same issue with 12 year old boys

my sons first team ended their season with a parents v 10 year old boys game. I knew from the get go it was a horrible idea (maybe 16 year olds could do it). I gave my son the express instruction do not 1v1; do not try to save anything that isn’t shot directly at you. The stupid dads all played to win running up the score 21-0. On one corner that was right in his zone to catch a dad bodied him off the ball into the goal. One kid ended up with a broken arm; another with a sprained ankle. My father as the team doctor was busier that game than anything that had happened in league. Afterwards the dads were yelling at the boys “in your face”. Men can be so dumb but even the moms playing yelled at me for taking it easy on them and letting one in.

 

[dad4]

Now that’s bad faith on your part. It always ends that way with you when you are cornered. In situations where we test I’ve said specifically the science may show for some sports you can’t balance. That’s not “play wherever they want”. You do have to furnish them a place to play which is level but it may not be in the female division (the difference with youth again is we don’t care about balance because we don’t care about the cheaters). I’ve even been open to saying the strictest standards for the Olympics and national teams should be in place and that may mean Mtfs need to be banned on those levels. All those go against the position of “my tribe”. My tribe (to the extent there is one…see below) would consider me an apostate for not taking the leftist maximalist position that gender is merely a social construct.

you see thats because I do logic and reasoning. I go where the data leads me. As with Covid, it led me to a position of “it’s not the flu” and to go against the “ let’s not worriers…let’s play on at mic” but then when the data was clear early on to oppose the craziness of your camp. Here it’s led me to a fairly centrist place where I disagree with both those on the extreme left and right on the issue (I can’t help it Etol chose to be reasonable and didn’t take the extreme position…he certainly shocked me). What you do is dogma so you assume everyone must do it too. You are in the business of religion, but in your case you disgustingly always mask it with the veneer of science. It’s old timey progressivism and I despise old times progressivism. Their belief system is both hypocritical and horrible. It is a way of looking at things that has unleashed untold damage upon the world.

ps it’s stunningly biased on your part to lump us in all together as some unitary monolith. If you saw the film “bros” you’d see we don’t always agree. I’ll add that to your growing list of horribles

If you want to be treated as a logical creature, you can't pick and choose your facts based on what helps your argument.

Girls are either slower and weaker than boys, or they aren't. They aren't slow and weak when they go to GK training on Wednesday, almost equally strong when playing against a mtf athlete on Saturday, and then weak again at goalie training the following Wednesday.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Wait isn’t the takeaway here that an adult is playing with 12 year olds? The entire trans thing is a canard here. You’d have the very same issue with 12 year old boys

Whatever it is, it's not a good look for those who support transgender girls in girls' sports. It happened. It may not be as bad for the cause as having EOTL as a spokesperson, but it's still harmful. It doesn't present trans folks in a particularly flattering light - in this case much more of a victimizer than a victim. It ruins the narrative. Of course, I'm sure EOTL will consider this a success. "Playing girls sports worked! She made it to middle age without killing herself and hasn't raped any of your daughters in the bathroom - as far as I know. And all because she was allowed to play on a girls team you transphobic pos!" <cue EOTL-lite>