Happened again
SILVER ELITE
you don't, you can't.
Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
- Start date
Again reading comprehension. The point under discussion was colleged aged young adults under treatments. My position on youth soccer which I reiterated not a page ago is it doesn’t matter (for the reasons which YOU outlined): it’s about the bow. Until you police the cheaters you don’t police the trans kids.
That’s taking a generalization and applying it to specifics. We don’t know the specifics yet of the impact of various treatments on performance. It may also not be a question of identical but “close enough” if the drift from cis male is more severe than the distance from cis female. The studies aren’t in yet and it may be for some sports it’s good enough and for some it isn’t . if you have data you are welcome to present.it’s time to put up or shut up as they say.
Before we can discuss "the point under discussion", please clarify your thesis.
You can support including all mtf trans athletes, or you can support including only the ones on treatment.
Either is fine. But you don't get to hop from one to the other based on whatever is convenient.
Sigh? You still really need clarification after 46 pages? Of course we need to hop around because the rationales and function of each is different.
My position has been consistent from the beginning. We JUST talked about it 5 pages back: sliding scale. No restrictions pre puberty full inclusion. Only slight restrictions on puberty involvement in youth sports: uswnt camps, certain individual sports championships, academies if the women ever get academies. Principle: if we don’t sus out the cheaters we don’t sus out the transkids. College and higher where we do sus out cheaters: it’s a question of science relative to the specific sport if an intervention can level the playing field so that’s it’s close enough…if the drift from the cis men is sufficiently large a new division needs to be called for then you must set up a new division and remove scholarships from the men and women to fund.
its not my fault you see the world in black and white and can’t understand nuance. That seems awfully familiar too.
That isn't so much nuance as a failed attempt to have it both ways.
In any case, it took you a paragraph to say "Yes, I support inclusion of unmedicated mtf athletes in teen girls youth soccer competitions."
In that case, your points regarding the statistical distribution of mtf athletes on testosterone inhibitors are irrelevant. The majority who actually make a team are likely to be the ones who did not take performance reducing medications. But those are the ones you pretend do not exist.
"A California school district being sued for allegedly violating parental rights by transitioning an 11-year-old's gender in secret is facing the wrath of local parents, who this week demanded transparency and for school officials not to keep them in the dark on matters of importance to their children's' lives."
It's ok little 11 year old. We won't tell your mommy. This will be our secret. We will support you.....
It's ok little 11 year old. We won't tell your mommy. This will be our secret. We will support you.....
Again it’s not my fault you have reading comprehension issues and can’t follow that we were discussing college aged athletes where we actually test. And it’s not my fault we care about some results and test and don’t care about others and don’t test. Don’t like the inconsistency? Very simple: test.
But for now on the youth level we don’t test and don’t care about the cheaters. And in any case you said it best: it’s about the hairbow, not the training. They are not soccer robots. It was after all YOUR POINT. Not my fault you want to backtrack now.
Dad was 100% wrong about the masks & jabs. Teachers have a very hard time to admit when their wrong, trust me. I wait for the day when dad says, "I was wrong." However, Dad is 100% on target regarding this subject. Grace, you're stuck in the middle again. Their is no middle on this. Have a wonderful Sunday with the boys. Peace to you all!
Soccer Dad & Ref
SILVER ELITE
Take your sophomoric memes over to off topic.
Such an old white boomer…
What would sites like these look like if everyone posted dumb ass pictures every time they thought they were funny? Thankfully most people don’t copy and paste every dumb ass thing they think is funny. Go back to the troll section of this forum.
So, going for the reading comprehension insult because you got pinned down. Yet again.
For U13-U18, you decided to say that you support inclusion of teenage XY athletes in girls youth leagues, even if they are not on any kind of testosterone lowering medication. That means you support a 17 year old, post-puberty, XY athlete in a U17 girls league. Fine. Let’s look at what that means.
Two pages back you conceded that the goalie risks injury if a 17 year old female goalie tries to block the shots in a U17 boys game. Ok. How is that any different if you put a 17 year old XY forward in a U17 girls game? The kid shooting the ball and the girl blocking it are exactly the same. His leg isn’t any weaker, and the girl’s wrists aren’t any stronger. You’ll get exactly the same injuries.
I recall you had a tendency to do this with Covid. Familiar with all your dirty tricks by now. Like hearing what you want. Putting words in people’s mouth. Or decrying insults after you drop them like “ crazy “ while mine is just a critique of your reading comprehension skills. You want an insult? How’s this? Same old garbage from you.
in any case I never conceded that it was especially dangerous if a 17 year old girl tried to block a males shot. In fact that happens all the time in gk camps which I was complaining about not because of safety but because the training for the boys suffers.Yes there are some gk coaches that separate them but that has more to do that it slows down the training for the boys. And not all of them do it. Otherwise there are a lot of gk coaches around town opening themselves up for lawsuits. Someone better send them a memo.
In any case we already covered safetyism a n. It’s not a legit complaint until you separate my sons friend from the premature 6 ft 13 year old and kick the early bloomer into a higher bracket. Further that would seem to be a better argument to stop the mixing at Rec where the gks are less skilled than at the ecnl level you are quite selfishly worried about
you always lash out when cornered or embarrassed. I suspect you regret the all about the bow comment. You said it yourself: it’s about the bow not the training at youth levels. They aren’t soccer robots.
I agree with you that there are youths that are taking PED’s, I agreed with that in an earlier post. I’m sure there are, and as I said there will be cheating in sports when W’s, $$$, Scholarships, and NIL is concerned. Coaches cheat, use ineligible players, parents lie, birth certificates, etc. People and kids get caught, and when they do there are consequences. We talk about the cost of youth sports, how much will a testing governance model add to the already ludicrous cost of youth sports. I don’t think it is feasible. Cheaters are going to cheat. They are going to find a way. Youth, HS, College, Pro Leagues I think try their best with the resources they have to prevent cheating (unless we believe the NFL is scripted). Most everyone wants a fair and even competition. In Biological Women’s Sports, allowing Biological Males participants with KNOWN physical advantages to participate is unfair to Biological Women. In team sports (soccer, BBall, Water Polo, LAX, etc.) I believe it could be unsafe.
it’s not because I believe or feel it unfair, it’s because it IS unfair to have a Biological Male to compete directly against a Biological Female. It’s not even a question up for debate is it?
if your argument is cheating occurs, creates advantages for the cheaters, there is no oversight in youth sports, and what is the difference if a Biological Male is playing in a Biological Female League since the frequency is low, I can sort of see that. The difference to me is that we don’t knowingly allow competitors with unfair advantages to compete. Many a HS and college program with games and championship wins vacated due to cheating and improprieties.
You made my point when discussing you son’s friend who is not tall enough and does not shoot hard enough. He does not fit the criteria the coach is looking. It sucks, but not everyone makes the team. Yes, in my mind it is a meritocracy because the coaching staff is looking for the best players to help the team to get the best results at this moment in time. Unfortunately that young person did not make the cut for that team and was not what the coach was looking for. Even MJ got cut from his HS BBall team.
I disagree with saying at the youth level let them just play. At the very young ages, where coed leagues exist than fine. But at a point there is a distinct physical advantage that emerges for Biological Young Males that creates and unfair advantage towards Young Biological Women. That point is not the same for all when dealing with Puberty. How do you manage that?
I also think it is a very dangerous and a slippery slope when young people, kids, who are not fully developed in any way physically, mentally, or emotionally are allowed to make life altering, life changing and irreversible decisions to alter their bodies. I personally do not believe young people have the capacity to fully understand the long term and permanent consequences or outcomes.
Why don’t we let kids vote in elections? Why don’t we let elementary school kids drive? Why do we have age limits on entering the military, drinking ages, smoking, getting tattoos, etc.
These rules are in place because young people typically do not make the best decisions. They need to mature to make the best long term and correct decisions for themselves.
Kids and young adults change ALOT…Its hard to be a kid or young adult today with social media, tik toks, influencers, cyber bullying, all the BS kids have to deal with today. I don’t think kids and young adults should be making lifetime decisions too early.
The cost is not a legit argument. If a level playing field is important then testing important. It’s not good enough to give the cheaters a pass and say cheaters are going to cheat but then go after the trans kids. You are essentially singling them out. Again where was the last youth soccer player not on a national team that was caught
your argument basically amounts “to it’s not fair because I think it’s not fair”. Again facts don’t care about how you feel. The correct way to look at this is as a disability and to see what accommodations if any can be reasonably extended
as to meritocracy you basically made the argument that it depends on some arbitrary line on the calendar drawn by a governing board (mine went from one of the oldest to youngest with a stroke of a pen) and whether you are lucky to be born in the relevant month. That’s not a meritocracy. It’s arbitrary. It’s artificial lines drawn in the sand.
I agree life altering changes should not be encouraged for the under 18. That why there shouldn’t be a performance reduction test there and since we don’t care about a level playing in most sports (some individual sports and national teams excepted) it doesn’t matter if they are included. As dad4 has said at the youth level it’s about the hair bow, not the training. They aren’t soccer robots.
I say "You don't put girls as keeper in a U17 boy's game because they would break bones. ". You quote my post and write "Yeah".
Normal humans would interpret that as an agreement that putting girl keepers in a U17 boys game would result in more broken bones.
Do the above words mean something different on your planet?
Reading comprehension. The “yeah” referred to your last sentence that gender identity doesn’t override physics (as is typical in correct English grammar). Not your safetyisn. I then proceeded to how it could be balanced under the scenario kicking outlined. And I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that it is a reading comprehension issue and a desperate need on your part to hear what you want to hear rather than bad faith
you then proceeded to object to kickings scheme on the ground that it was about the bow not the training and that kids weren’t soccer robots. Which is the exact point mtfs on the youth level where we don’t test are making.
The DA experimented with Bio-Banding a few years ago. Played some games at Silver Lakes and bracketed kids by Height/Weight, and banded them by size, not by chronological age. It was an interesting concept to create more fair competition to eliminate size disparities due to the early pubescent young people.
My daughter was also affected by the age change a few years going to Birth Year only and has a late year birthdate. It is what it is. Laws, rules are never going to make everyone happy. It’s funny, it has actually helped her because she is a grade behind all but one other on her club team, has helped in recruiting getting her in front of coaches earlier at showcases than kids in her grade year, and has essentially been playing “up” a year considering her grad year versus her birth year. It’s not always a bad thing. You have to deal with the situation in front of you and make the best of it. The way we look at it she has an extra year to develop. At the end of the day it has not been a bad thing.
Life is not fair, we all have to deal with it. People are going to cheat or try to cheat…♂. Can’t stop it. Happens in all aspects of life, relationships, business, sports, school, you name it. People have cheated since the beginning of time and will until the end of time.
There are sports leagues and teams for people with disabilities…there are national teams for people with disabilities, etc. Are you asking for an ADA for sports? Ankle weights, weight jackets, weighted shin guards, spotting points, playing with less players on a side? Golf, there are handicaps, probably should not call them that. Is an attempt to even the playing field between better players and lower quality players. Lots of cheating, sandbagging, and 11 wedges in golf that I have seen over the years. Are you saying let’s “Handicap” the actual playing of youth sports?
My argument is not “it’s not fair, because it is not fair”….it’s not a feeling. It is a fact that Biological Males have a distinct advantage against Biological Females physically. It’s why there are separate leagues for Biological Males and Females. No WNBA player would be a star in the NBA, there is not a Biological Woman on the planet that could play Offensive Line in the NFL long term and successfully…Those Biological Men are ginormous 6’4+ 300lbs+ and are HUGE. It’s disingenuous to imply Biological Males do not have an Advantage over Biological Females in Sports. What did Dave Chapelle say, if Lebron played in the WNBA he would score 800 points a night…It’s a FACT Biological Males have an advantage. It’s not a feeling.
We will never have a youth sports Utopia. I respect your views and perspectives, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.