Spain Women and thoughts on ECNL

Ellejustus said:
One of the knocks on one of my dd #1 teams in the country was that we held onto the ball too much, passed backwards way too much and did not have the "kill the mouse" now instincts and not always bring ganas to the pitch. We played around with the mouse way too much and it cost us a few times and I might say, it cost us to be in the running of one of the greatest possession teams ever assembled. "Girls, we played real pretty soccer today. However, the best team lost today." Why? Because they played around and did not destroy the opponent. I like possession with the intent to score always and move forward and not backwards 90% of the time. Most players can pass it back, but can they pass it forward and in spaces and lead the player to the right spot? I love Futbol. No wonder I was not a fan of soccer. Great stuff bro. You know how to research and the forum need's more dads like you Luis. I know you had to obey the NFP agreement, but I like you free now and free to write and express your opinions. You write really good or is it "well?" Anyway, to each his own :)
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I would say well. I can take complex concepts and find ways to simplify them so others can understand the main objective. I gave this example because I originally questioned it myself. Everyone talks about possession soccer so freely which can lead to misunderstandings and confusion. So I’m trying to clarify things for you all.
 
Luis Andres said:
I would say well. I can take complex concepts and find ways to simplify them so others can understand the main objective. I gave this example because I originally questioned it myself. Everyone talks about possession soccer so freely which can lead to misunderstandings and confusion. So I’m trying to clarify things for you all.
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Thank you
 
How can we talk about possession soccer without going back to its roots. Last one for today.

Imagine soccer as an evolving art form. If that's the case, then "Total Football" would be its Renaissance period - grand, revolutionary, and the forefather to many styles we see today.

Before the rhythm of Tiki-Taka and the systematic dance of Positional Play, there was Total Football, making waves and causing raised eyebrows everywhere. Often celebrated as the "father" of possession soccer, Total Football is not just about having the ball but about creating an ever-changing canvas with player movements, morphing formations, and collective understanding.

So, how does it stand apart from its "offspring" - Tiki-Taka and Positional Play? Well, the essence of Total Football revolves around its fluidity: everyone can play everywhere. It's as if the whole team took a "do-it-all" potion. Defenders can become attackers, midfielders can slot into defense, and so on. This constant movement, combined with high pressing, makes it a double-edged sword - dominating possession while suffocating opponents.

Now, contrast this with Tiki-Taka's rapid passing sequences. While Tiki-Taka is all about lulling opponents with hypnotic short passes, Total Football is about the players themselves becoming the ball, shifting and rotating. And, when we bring Positional Play into the picture, which focuses on positioning and finding that "free man," Total Football integrates these principles but adds layers of player interchangeability.

Imagine playing musical chairs, but instead of sitting when the music stops, everyone assumes a new role in the team! That's Total Football for you.

Perhaps the most vibrant canvas painted by this style was by the **Dutch national team in the 1970s**. Guided by the maestro Rinus Michels and starring the artist Johan Cruyff, they showcased how Total Football was both an art and a science. They might not have clinched the World Cup, but their influence? Oh, it’s etched forever in the annals of soccer, laying the foundational principles for high pressing and fluid possession systems we witness today. The Dutch maestros might look down today and think, "We started that!"

 
Luis Andres said:
How can we talk about possession soccer without going back to its roots. Last one for today.

Imagine soccer as an evolving art form. If that's the case, then "Total Football" would be its Renaissance period - grand, revolutionary, and the forefather to many styles we see today.

Before the rhythm of Tiki-Taka and the systematic dance of Positional Play, there was Total Football, making waves and causing raised eyebrows everywhere. Often celebrated as the "father" of possession soccer, Total Football is not just about having the ball but about creating an ever-changing canvas with player movements, morphing formations, and collective understanding.

So, how does it stand apart from its "offspring" - Tiki-Taka and Positional Play? Well, the essence of Total Football revolves around its fluidity: everyone can play everywhere. It's as if the whole team took a "do-it-all" potion. Defenders can become attackers, midfielders can slot into defense, and so on. This constant movement, combined with high pressing, makes it a double-edged sword - dominating possession while suffocating opponents.

Now, contrast this with Tiki-Taka's rapid passing sequences. While Tiki-Taka is all about lulling opponents with hypnotic short passes, Total Football is about the players themselves becoming the ball, shifting and rotating. And, when we bring Positional Play into the picture, which focuses on positioning and finding that "free man," Total Football integrates these principles but adds layers of player interchangeability.

Imagine playing musical chairs, but instead of sitting when the music stops, everyone assumes a new role in the team! That's Total Football for you.

Perhaps the most vibrant canvas painted by this style was by the **Dutch national team in the 1970s**. Guided by the maestro Rinus Michels and starring the artist Johan Cruyff, they showcased how Total Football was both an art and a science. They might not have clinched the World Cup, but their influence? Oh, it’s etched forever in the annals of soccer, laying the foundational principles for high pressing and fluid possession systems we witness today. The Dutch maestros might look down today and think, "We started that!"

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I watched first few minutes and just love this style of futbol and the freedom to move around the pitch and not have other players yell at you or parents telling you to get back to your area of the field. Roam around and find the space. The other team was already getting tired and huffing and puffing like the stupid bad wolf. We got tricked with soccer is all I can say. If our youth leagues were like this, we could be done away with, "My dd plays the 10 and only the 10" or, "I play CM and that's it." First off, you go where coach tells you to go and you best better learn all the positions in real futbol is all I can say. One thing I hated about our youth system, all the top players parents and even some of the players demanded their dd play the 10 or the position that dad thinks is best. It's high time we start playing the game the right way. My dd has played all positions and is willing to play anywhere asked, just as long as she get's to play in the game. Total Football gives you total freedom to create and move about. Luis, has this style caused problems for selfish players on the team or do they unjust and not get all mad if a defender finds his way up top and tells the striker, "Hey pal, you had your chance to score and choked. I'm here now. Get your ass back on defense for a change and let me have a crack at it."
 
I saw this video from Pep

he was talking about passing and how much he loves it and that it’s in his DNA/Culture

but it wasn’t just any passes , it was the 5-7 yard passes with constant movement of players. He talked about how the 20-25 yard passes just don’t work at the highest level, the ball takes too long to get to the players and the defenders are just too good for you to have any success

I thought , you know who loved the 20-25 yard passes ?, our USWNT at the WC
 
Luis Andres said:
Looks like posts are missing I put a nice explanation of the third man vs free man in positional play. Ohh well, it was good info. Anyways @Ellejustus congratulations I saw the pictures…
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It was interesting, but a good press team blows it up, e.g. in your third man example the premise was that only the opposing 6 moves, but that's not what would happen - defender passes to mid, opposing 6 presses / opposing 9 slides over to cover the back pass, mid cannot pass to originator and likely has to pass to RB or across to defender on other side - conclusion is that the 8 (your third man) does not get the ball.

Brav520 said:
but it wasn’t just any passes , it was the 5-7 yard passes with constant movement of players. He talked about how the 20-25 yard passes just don’t work at the highest level, the ball takes too long to get to the players and the defenders are just too good for you to have any success
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This is how you beat the press, but its really hard for obvious reasons.
 
whatithink said:
It was interesting, but a good press team blows it up, e.g. in your third man example the premise was that only the opposing 6 moves, but that's not what would happen - defender passes to mid, opposing 6 presses / opposing 9 slides over to cover the back pass, mid cannot pass to originator and likely has to pass to RB or across to defender on other side - conclusion is that the 8 (your third man) does not get the ball.
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I was basically trying to show the difference between the Third Man and the Free Man as it can be confusing for people. Let me post again,

Third Man
In Guardiola's system, the "third man" concept isn't merely about forming triangles; it's also about creating overloads in specific areas to break down well-organized defenses. His teams use quick one-twos and third-man runs to bypass defensive lines. A key aspect of this is that the "third man" often starts his movement well before the initial pass is made, timing his run to offer a passing outlet that is virtually impossible to defend. This type of play is often rehearsed in training and is a staple in breaking down teams that defend in deep blocks.

Free Man
Guardiola's take on the "free man" concept often involves positional awareness and intelligence. Players are instructed to find space and become the "free man" in zones where they can either keep possession or create dangerous situations. Often, this involves midfielders dropping deep to create overloads, wingers cutting inside, or even center-backs advancing into the midfield. Guardiola wants his players to be aware of spaces and move into them dynamically, making it difficult for the opposing team to mark them.

Key Differences According to Guardiola:
  • Fluidity: Guardiola’s system is highly fluid, and players are often seen rotating roles. A "free man" in one phase of play can become a "third man" in the next, depending on how play develops.
  • Build-up Play: In the build-up phase, the "free man" is often a player in a deeper position, sometimes even the goalkeeper. Guardiola likes to use the goalkeeper as an extra outfield player to maintain numerical superiority against the press.
  • Positional Discipline: Even though the roles are fluid, Guardiola insists on positional discipline. The "third man" usually emerges out of positional play that adheres to certain geometrical rules that create the conditions for overloads and third-man runs.
  • High Press and Transition: Both the "third man" and "free man" concepts are not just used in possession but also in transitions and pressing. Guardiola's teams often use these ideas to win back the ball quickly or exploit spaces during quick counter-attacks.

Third Man (Arises from off the ball movement usually from moving the ball in triangles)
The "third man" often arises from off-the-ball movement. In this scenario, the player understands when and where to make the run to become the "third man" in a passing triangle or sequence. Timing and movement are essential, and the player must read the game well to find the spaces where he can receive the ball to either maintain possession or create a goal-scoring opportunity.

Example: #4 passes the ball to #9 which draws #6 defender to #9

IMG_2586 (1).jpg
#9 plays the ball back to # 4 creating the decoy for #8 to move off the ball into empty space

IMG_2587 (1).jpg
#8 is the Third Man as he just made a third man run
IMG_2588.jpg



Free Man (Arises from positional superiority not moving off the ball from a triangle passing sequence)
The "free man," on the other hand, often arises from positional superiority. In a Guardiola system, this might mean the player is standing between defensive lines, making it difficult for the opponent to mark him without compromising their defensive structure. The player in this role must have excellent positional awareness and the technical ability to quickly distribute the ball once it's received. The player is unmarked with a lot of time and space to receive the ball and can easily turn to keep advancing the ball forward.

The situation here is the #10 is sitting between the lines. The defensive line is not approaching him because they are trying to maintain their structure. They wouldn't want to leave #9 the striker alone in a 1v1. This is a clear example of #10 being the free man but not the third man.

IMG_2589.jpg



In this scenario the Free Man and the Third Man are the same

IMG_2577.jpg

IMG_2591.jpg

Here the Free Man is Messi, assuming he drops down between lines and is standing free with space and time to turn but he is not the Third Man. Plyers 8,5,6 are making up the triangle

IMG_2590.jpg

in essence:

  • The "third man" is often about intelligent movement and timing, exploiting spaces left open by defensive movements or teammates dragging defenders out of position.
  • The "free man" is more about smart positioning, standing in areas that either force the opponent to compromise their shape or offer a safe outlet for maintaining possession.
Both concepts aim to achieve positional superiority but do so in different ways. While the "third man" does so through dynamic movement, the "free man" achieves this through intelligent positioning.
 
Last edited:
Luis Andres said:
I was basically trying to show the difference between the Third Man and the Free Man as it can be confusing for people. Let me post again,

Third Man
In Guardiola's system, the "third man" concept isn't merely about forming triangles; it's also about creating overloads in specific areas to break down well-organized defenses. His teams use quick one-twos and third-man runs to bypass defensive lines. A key aspect of this is that the "third man" often starts his movement well before the initial pass is made, timing his run to offer a passing outlet that is virtually impossible to defend. This type of play is often rehearsed in training and is a staple in breaking down teams that defend in deep blocks.

Free Man
Guardiola's take on the "free man" concept often involves positional awareness and intelligence. Players are instructed to find space and become the "free man" in zones where they can either keep possession or create dangerous situations. Often, this involves midfielders dropping deep to create overloads, wingers cutting inside, or even center-backs advancing into the midfield. Guardiola wants his players to be aware of spaces and move into them dynamically, making it difficult for the opposing team to mark them.

Key Differences According to Guardiola:
  • Fluidity: Guardiola’s system is highly fluid, and players are often seen rotating roles. A "free man" in one phase of play can become a "third man" in the next, depending on how play develops.
  • Build-up Play: In the build-up phase, the "free man" is often a player in a deeper position, sometimes even the goalkeeper. Guardiola likes to use the goalkeeper as an extra outfield player to maintain numerical superiority against the press.
  • Positional Discipline: Even though the roles are fluid, Guardiola insists on positional discipline. The "third man" usually emerges out of positional play that adheres to certain geometrical rules that create the conditions for overloads and third-man runs.
  • High Press and Transition: Both the "third man" and "free man" concepts are not just used in possession but also in transitions and pressing. Guardiola's teams often use these ideas to win back the ball quickly or exploit spaces during quick counter-attacks.

Third Man (Arises from off the ball movement usually from moving the ball in triangles)
The "third man" often arises from off-the-ball movement. In this scenario, the player understands when and where to make the run to become the "third man" in a passing triangle or sequence. Timing and movement are essential, and the player must read the game well to find the spaces where he can receive the ball to either maintain possession or create a goal-scoring opportunity.

Example: #4 passes the ball to #9 which draws #6 defender to #9

View attachment 17954
#9 plays the ball back to # 4 creating the decoy for #8 to move off the ball into empty space

View attachment 17955
#8 is the Third Man as he just made a third man run
View attachment 17956



Free Man (Arises from positional superiority not moving off the ball from a triangle passing sequence)
The "free man," on the other hand, often arises from positional superiority. In a Guardiola system, this might mean the player is standing between defensive lines, making it difficult for the opponent to mark him without compromising their defensive structure. The player in this role must have excellent positional awareness and the technical ability to quickly distribute the ball once it's received. The player is unmarked with a lot of time and space to receive the ball and turn to keep advancing the ball forward.

The situation here is the #10 is sitting between the lines. The defensive line is not approaching him because they are trying to maintain their structure. They wouldn't want to leave #9 the striker alone in a 1v1. This is a clear example of #10 being the free man but not the third man.

View attachment 17957



In this scenario the Free Man and the Third Man are the same

View attachment 17958

View attachment 17959

Here the Free Man is Messi, assuming he drops down between lines and is standing free with space and time to turn but he is not the Third Man. Plyers 8,5,6 are making up the triangle

View attachment 17960

in essence:

  • The "third man" is often about intelligent movement and timing, exploiting spaces left open by defensive movements or teammates dragging defenders out of position.
  • The "free man" is more about smart positioning, standing in areas that either force the opponent to compromise their shape or offer a safe outlet for maintaining possession.
Both concepts aim to achieve positional superiority but do so in different ways. While the "third man" does so through dynamic movement, the "free man" achieves this through intelligent positioning.
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[/QUOTE]
I like the sound of "free man." We had a player back in ASO days that was allowed to play anywhere he wanted. The name slips my memory, but he started behind the Mids but in front of the defense. Rover type player.
 
Ellejustus said:
I like the sound of "free man." We had a player back in ASO days that was allowed to play anywhere he wanted. The name slips my memory, but he started behind the Mids but in front of the defense. Rover type player.
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In many of Pep Guardiola's tactical setups, the main objective is to find the "free man." By consistently finding a player who has managed to escape close marking, the team can maintain possession, stretch the opponent's defense, and potentially create goal-scoring opportunities. The "free man" often acts as a pivot or hub for circulating the ball and progressing it up the field.

Guardiola emphasizes positional play to create overloads and positional superiority, both horizontally and vertically. These overloads often lead to a "free man" emerging either between the lines of the opposition's defense and midfield or in wide areas where space has been created. This "free man" can then receive the ball and make a decisive action, whether it be a pass, a dribble, or a shot. The third man can always be considered the free man but the free man may not always be the third man. So finding the free man is one of the main objectives of positional play.
 
Luis Andres said:
In many of Pep Guardiola's tactical setups, the main objective is to find the "free man." By consistently finding a player who has managed to escape close marking, the team can maintain possession, stretch the opponent's defense, and potentially create goal-scoring opportunities. The "free man" often acts as a pivot or hub for circulating the ball and progressing it up the field.

Guardiola emphasizes positional play to create overloads and positional superiority, both horizontally and vertically. These overloads often lead to a "free man" emerging either between the lines of the opposition's defense and midfield or in wide areas where space has been created. This "free man" can then receive the ball and make a decisive action, whether it be a pass, a dribble, or a shot. The third man can always be considered the free man but the free man may not always be the third man. So finding the free man is one of the main objectives of positional play.
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I played GK with a big time adult league back in the day. We played "free man" style bro. It's all coming back to me. We had this one player/coach/manager of the team and he also happen to be the free man. It was fun watching him control the subs and control the ball. He was sort of like a CM but was free to roam. He was the hub. This guy never stopped bro. He ran long distance and could challenge the Kenyans to a race. I mean this 100%. Dude never stopped moving around the field. He was truly the "free man." Great stuff Luis.
 
@Ellejustus

Understanding the concepts of the "free man" and the "third man" can make the complexities of positional play much easier to grasp. Both terms essentially relate to the broader goal of creating numerical and positional advantages on the field, but they do so through different mechanisms—movement and positioning, respectively.

Understanding the Free Man:
  • Advantages in Understanding: If you understand the concept of the "free man," you're better equipped to appreciate why teams make certain tactical shifts and positional adjustments. The quest to create a "free man" explains why teams may overload one side of the pitch, why midfielders drop deep, or why full-backs may venture forward.
  • Game Reading: It helps in reading the game better, not just as a player but also as a spectator or analyst. When a team consistently finds the "free man," it's a sign of good tactical discipline and effective positional play.
Understanding the Third Man:
  • Off-the-Ball Movement: Understanding the role of the "third man" helps you appreciate the importance of off-the-ball movement and how it can break defensive lines.
  • Triangles and Passing Lanes: Recognizing the importance of the "third man" can also help you understand why certain passing lanes are exploited and how triangles are formed across the pitch to maintain possession and create attacking opportunities.
Broadening Positional Play Understanding:
When you combine these two concepts, you start to see how teams manipulate space and use positioning to both attack and defend more effectively. Understanding these elements will give you a deeper appreciation for the tactics employed by top-level coaches like Pep Guardiola. Positional play is all about creating favorable conditions for maintaining possession, progressing the ball, and ultimately creating scoring opportunities, and the roles of the "free man" and "third man" are integral to this approach.

Once these concepts are clear, the intricate ballet of positional play becomes far more understandable, offering a richer understanding of the strategies that unfold on the pitch.
 
Luis Andres said:
@Ellejustus

Understanding the concepts of the "free man" and the "third man" can make the complexities of positional play much easier to grasp. Both terms essentially relate to the broader goal of creating numerical and positional advantages on the field, but they do so through different mechanisms—movement and positioning, respectively.

Understanding the Free Man:
  • Advantages in Understanding: If you understand the concept of the "free man," you're better equipped to appreciate why teams make certain tactical shifts and positional adjustments. The quest to create a "free man" explains why teams may overload one side of the pitch, why midfielders drop deep, or why full-backs may venture forward.
  • Game Reading: It helps in reading the game better, not just as a player but also as a spectator or analyst. When a team consistently finds the "free man," it's a sign of good tactical discipline and effective positional play.
Understanding the Third Man:
  • Off-the-Ball Movement: Understanding the role of the "third man" helps you appreciate the importance of off-the-ball movement and how it can break defensive lines.
  • Triangles and Passing Lanes: Recognizing the importance of the "third man" can also help you understand why certain passing lanes are exploited and how triangles are formed across the pitch to maintain possession and create attacking opportunities.
Broadening Positional Play Understanding:
When you combine these two concepts, you start to see how teams manipulate space and use positioning to both attack and defend more effectively. Understanding these elements will give you a deeper appreciation for the tactics employed by top-level coaches like Pep Guardiola. Positional play is all about creating favorable conditions for maintaining possession, progressing the ball, and ultimately creating scoring opportunities, and the roles of the "free man" and "third man" are integral to this approach.

Once these concepts are clear, the intricate ballet of positional play becomes far more understandable, offering a richer understanding of the strategies that unfold on the pitch.
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Thanks
 
LASTMAN14 said:
Yes, we do. I watch them all the time. But they are not being considered. They go overlooked and undervalued by US Soccer and college coaches. For example my two DD have played in a possession based system since day 1 and a few years ago literally before Covid their team played in Spain against the academy teams of Valencia, Osasuna, Athletico Madrid, Osasuna, Seville, and Lyon. We won playing the same way they do. I will point out a college player to watch at UCLA. She’s a defender and plays the 3. Quincy McMahon and she reminds me Olga from Spain. If US Soccer does not bring someone in like her…I just don’t know. None the less a system that works to develop players must be put in place to develop players. The current methods are inadequate and not cohesive.
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Two more players I’ve been impressed with are Jordynn Dudley at FSU and Allison Kamansky at USF. JD is a prototype forward tall, athletic and fast. But what impresses me is her movement off the ball, knowing when to pass or dribble. She finishes well and can be physical. She is just a freshman and it will interesting to see if she continues to progress in the manner I hope to see. AK is an attacking fullback who races forward into the attack, connecting with her mids, and setting up opportunities for her forwards. Her defense is tenacious and she does like to take shots on goal.
 
I agree that most are clueless when it comes to possession/positional play and the transitional phases. Our small club is dedicated to this style. It takes a while to get young teams clicking, but once it does, they do very well.
 
Luis Andres said:
We have the athletes but they lack the required technique and tactics.
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Bigger, stronger, faster athletes are necessary for those teams that lack superior technical ability. If you can't beat them by possessing, then beat them by winning 50/50 balls. Sadly most clubs don't develop technical ability, and therefore, they will always pursue direct kickball with the best athletes, not soccer players.
 
CoachReed68 said:
Bigger, stronger, faster athletes are necessary for those teams that lack superior technical ability. If you can't beat them by possessing, then beat them by winning 50/50 balls. Sadly most clubs don't develop technical ability, and therefore, they will always pursue direct kickball with the best athletes, not soccer players.
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You'll need the ability to win 50/50 balls to start your possession game.
 
sockma said:
You'll need the ability to win 50/50 balls to start your possession game.
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Well most coaches that focus on possession are running some variety of rondos, positional play, and training games. None of these are unopposed exercises. If they're executed with the proper amount of intensity (faster than match speed), the play off the ball should also improve. These exercises also cover technical training as the coach should be honing in on each player's technique (body position, footing, etc). Personally, I'd really struggle if my kids weren't receiving this kind of training. If I see my kids standing around, in lines, etc, I'd be pretty bummed out. I also can't stand seeing teams working on set plays, etc if the team's cognitive level isn't higher than most of their opponents. There simply isn't enough time to get the player's brains dialed in. No need to waste time on things that don't matter as much.
 
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