Agree. Philosophically a possession team should be implementing a defensive press to retake the ball as quickly as possible.
Spain Women and thoughts on ECNL
- Thread starter Highlander
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Yes, you use the press to force mistakes but when the mistakes result in a 50/50 ball, you have to win it most of the time. If your team is great forcing mistakes, but can't gain advantage from the mistake, then it's useless. You need both.
Nice post. Agree with a lot of what you say. A handful of random thoughts:
A. Rondos are 1 of those things lots of coaches like to do that makes them proud they are teaching possession play but which most tend to do very poorly. I can’t tell you the number of coaches I’ve seen that just tell the players to do Rondos and either check out (players are taking care of themselves) or don’t give specific instruction as to footwork, receiving, first touch and technical skill. The other big failing is what you point out: it has to be above game speed. The final big error is the circle rondo with 1 or 2 players in the middle…after elementary school you are wasting time with that one and it doesn’t give enough pressure…there are different rondos than the stupid circle ones
B. Especially on the boys, however, once they hit high school while this needs to be continuously practiced, by high school any team on the elite first or second tier really should have this done. The problem at this point is the goalkeeper is now tall enough to touch the crossbar and can cover all but the high corners of the goal. So scoring becomes a problem. Shooting it from the top of the 18 and scoring really comes rarely unless you catch the goalkeeper out or can hit that corner. It means scoring needs to be done some other way such as through balls, cutbacks, crosses and aerials that catch the goalkeeper out. It’s not easy either because the defense at this point usually has more men behind than attackers. And particular shapes are needed for penetration play. The emphasis needs to shift at that point
C. Again at the high school level, set plays are important. Corners and dfks represent some of the few opportunities to score and the gk and the defense need to practice (otherwise don’t complain against them when they give up the goal). There are technical heading issues which the attackers need to learn. While possession still needs to be trained it shouldn’t be the focus anymore and if something needs to be sacrificed it really should be shooting practice and conditioning (which by this point at least on the highest tier players should be doing on their own but usually don’t).
D. My no 1 pet peeve starting at the middle school ages is possession coaches who train possession constantly but then in the game expect the gk to switch to opportunity play (or worse hand the gk to the big legged defender). If you aren’t going to train it, don’t complain when the gk and defenders mess it up and don’t win the 50/50. Yes it’s easier to switch from possession to direct but it requires some practice and coordination.
Yeah this is in-line with my thoughts. I didn't want to get into the specifics around rondos, but you're spot on that there are many varieties of this exercise. And 100% if a coach isn't demanding the intensity then it's a waste of time. I see this probably 90% of the time when I observe various training sessions. It's a bummer to see. It comes down to caring, and let's face it, coaching competitive youth soccer is similar to being a teacher....you're not doing it for the money. I don't think many coaches have fully confronted why they're working in this space.
I don't mind teams working on set plays if they're cognitively in a good place. Working on corners is pretty irrelevant if you can't get the ball up the field. Since we don't have a soccer culture in the US a lot of that cognitive muscle needs to be built in the 4.5-6 hours a week a coach has with the players.
I absolutely can't stand when a team trains with a possession mindset and then goes and plays every match directly. What is even the point? To check the boxes for the club's requirements around methodology and then throw that out the window because you care too much about results? This may not be on the coach entirely as they may have external pressures around results, but it's a bummer to see.
In one of my kids recent teams he was specifically brought on because he played a sweeper-keeper style the coach wanted to build from the back. Coach really understood possession, worked from the position that the kids (all vying for MLS Next) could play possessional, practices were possessionally oriented with all goalkicks short, and shortly before the HS age switched to offensive and defensive tactical formulations. Problem was the top kids got upset at being MLS futures, MLS reserves or not-MLS rosters so went on to other opportunities including quite a few that got MLS core slots. The replacements couldn't handle the ball as well and the defenders were actually afraid of taking the ball (which was weird....none of the kids in my son's much lower Latino league team are afraid of having the ball...but I guess they were afraid of losing it and then getting yelled at). So it began to go that they would play possessional the first fifteen minutes, one of the defenders would lose the ball, it would go in for a short 1v1 against the GK and half the time they'd go down 1-0 and have to switch long. The problem with long, however, is you have to train that too...the midfielder should be able to chest or foot the ball down into possession but if that's not practiced then they won't be able to do that either. So eventually, the parents rebelled and forced the coach into a direct style system (which hasn't worked all that better for them) and it was also the end for my kid (since it's not the system he's learned and comfortable playing). And this is in a backup league to MLS Next where standings ultimately didn't matter....imagine the result in a pro/rel system where the team is in danger of getting relegated. The parents also had the gaul to turn on the coach and claim he didn't know what he was doing (that he was relying on a much more seasoned assistant who left).
One story illustrates: in one game my kid kicks the goalkick short to the left CB, who has room and begins to dribble up the field. The press comes but the LB is afraid of the ball so has closed himself off and is yelling at the left CB to go long. My kid has taken position to the side of the goal forming a triangle between the left CB and the DM in support. The left CB sees the press coming so kicks it back towards the center of the goal for an own goal. The left CB then proceeds to yell at my kid for not being in the goal "like he's supposed to".
In one of my kids recent teams he was specifically brought on because he played a sweeper-keeper style the coach wanted to build from the back. Coach really understood possession, worked from the position that the kids (all vying for MLS Next) could play possessional, practices were possessionally oriented with all goalkicks short, and shortly before the HS age switched to offensive and defensive tactical formulations. Problem was the top kids got upset at being MLS futures, MLS reserves or not-MLS rosters so went on to other opportunities including quite a few that got MLS core slots. The replacements couldn't handle the ball as well and the defenders were actually afraid of taking the ball (which was weird....none of the kids in my son's much lower Latino league team are afraid of having the ball...but I guess they were afraid of losing it and then getting yelled at). So it began to go that they would play possessional the first fifteen minutes, one of the defenders would lose the ball, it would go in for a short 1v1 against the GK and half the time they'd go down 1-0 and have to switch long. The problem with long, however, is you have to train that too...the midfielder should be able to chest or foot the ball down into possession but if that's not practiced then they won't be able to do that either. So eventually, the parents rebelled and forced the coach into a direct style system (which hasn't worked all that better for them) and it was also the end for my kid (since it's not the system he's learned and comfortable playing). And this is in a backup league to MLS Next where standings ultimately didn't matter....imagine the result in a pro/rel system where the team is in danger of getting relegated. The parents also had the gaul to turn on the coach and claim he didn't know what he was doing (that he was relying on a much more seasoned assistant who left).
One story illustrates: in one game my kid kicks the goalkick short to the left CB, who has room and begins to dribble up the field. The press comes but the LB is afraid of the ball so has closed himself off and is yelling at the left CB to go long. My kid has taken position to the side of the goal forming a triangle between the left CB and the DM in support. The left CB sees the press coming so kicks it back towards the center of the goal for an own goal. The left CB then proceeds to yell at my kid for not being in the goal "like he's supposed to".
This is a great anecdote and touches on a piece that many clubs don't focus on which is team culture. I can't stress enough how important this is. If you have parents on the sidelines saying things like "The coach doesn't know what he's doing, etc" you know this likely won't end well depending on how many ears that parent has. So much of this is parent education, but trying to change the "win-now" mindset is as hard as changing political ideologies. There's not much worse than a divisive parent group in competitive youth soccer.
For me, there's nothing much better than seeing a U10 team connecting 8-10 passes in a row. I don't even care what the results are at that point. I know, because I have younger and older kids, the results will follow.
Parents are the worst enemies of this. Here's another one you'll appreciate in the closing days of his experience with the team and the parents. So they go up 2-0 quickly...they play possession and the other team doesn't implement a high press which means the defenders are able to get the ball up. The coach has changed his emphasis by this point to attack and so they do very well and score 2 easy goals. The opposing coach calls for a high press. There are a couple of passes out the back that require heroic efforts from some players to keep it in (one of them is in kiddo's passing highlights vid which requires a clever open pass into space). But some players make mistakes: in short order by minute 30 they've had like 3 DFKS called against them, a PK which goes in, and like 4 1v1s most lost off the possession. Game is now 2-3 against us and my kid now starts rather than to kick everything direct and quickly to slow the game down in accordance with the instructions of his coach. He can tell the backline has lost confidence and every attempt to go long or short is going against us and the players are just shellshocked. He starts time wasting so the score doesn't get even more lopsided against us going into the half because we haven't been able to get the ball to the attacking third in the last 10 minutes. The parents start screaming at him: what are you doing...hurry up we are behind. He's trying to reorganize the team and get them to the half where they can talk to the coach without anymore damage being done and the parents are ready to murder him.
whatithink
GOLD
Most mistakes from the press do not result in 50/50s. I don't understand your emphasis on this tbh. You do need to be positioned to take advantage of mistakes caused by your press, but that's about positional awareness and having a press that is organized.
Yeah parents can really self destruct this stuff -- and GKs and CBs feel the brunt of this most of the time. It's not a great scenario because there are more bad coaches (or unsupported) than good ones. So in many cases that divisive parent isn't "wrong". But if coaches could have the room, permission, and directive to train the brain and not focus on results, I think that would be a good start. That way the coach could start the season off with a plan and can relay to the parents how critical team culture is and that there will be zero tolerance for folks not on board. I would almost require families of younger players to come out to a match of the club's strongest cognitive teams and explain to them that this doesn't happen over night. It requires a lot of hard work, patience, and a high tolerance around results.
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While I believe possession soccer is vital and necessary to win games, the ability to win 50/50 balls from strength and speed is very important. If both teams are playing possession soccer and know how to position and move into the correct space offensively and defensively, there will be plenty of 50/50 balls.
At a high level, both teams competing will know to play possession and know how to defend against possession.
I think @sockma is just trying to point out that you still need be aggressive and physical in a possessive style of play. I completely agree with this. But, you really can't coach possession without the physicality. That would just imply the training sessions aren't run with the proper intensity. Players need to understand how to make quick, good decisions in a possessive style of play. You can't learn how to do that if you're not being pressed hard in training sessions. They go hand in hand. This is a stark contrast to training sessions that emphasize a direct style of play. Those coaches might emphasize fitness with no ball. This is why you'll a lot of teams just booting the ball.
Highlander
SILVER ELITE
Welp, here we are again. Mexico put a beating on our WNT. Our attacking players are so one dimensional...big straight forward/direct fast, with little to no finesse. Their predictability makes them relatively easy to defend. Rose is the only one who can show flashes of that a times, but those flashes aren't flashing as often these days. We need to get away from only the big bulky giant thigh players and go with more finesse players who bring skills and unpredictability to the game. If I were coaching I would cut half of them (I'm looking at you first Horan) and bring in new interesting players with high soccer IQs. Not that we tend to build that profile in today's youth soccer win at all costs mentality. Don't see this getting better any time soon until changes are made at the youth level.
I would like to see these two players be included in US rosters and play. First is Jordynn Dudley. Physically and athletically she fits the typical model, but is able to read the game, make intelligent and selfless plays, makes runs that are not in straight lines, switches positions up top during the game , and scores. Albeit quite a few other things I can say. The second is Quincy McMahon. She is a great defender whose ability to to connect, attack and create options is fun to watch. As a defender she is explosive in closing players down and winning the ball.
Orangeteam
SILVER ELITE
The issue with Rose Lavelle isn't so much Rose as the other 9 around her
If you had Rose play with Spain I believe you would see something different.
It's an issue of what the US recruits and brings to camps. There are other players that have that potential, but they usually passed over.
There are more kids who have the capability to play smarter than the standard of the US players and decent percent of them have the ability to play for other countries. This is something the US has to pay a bit more attnetion to with how they are picking at the youth level.
In fact, the US sent a gentle warning to all the pool players last year reminding them to be careful about where they choose to play because they would have go back to FIFA to request a change in sporting nationality should they decide to change. It read like if you pick another country and want to play for the US you have appeal to FIFA and there is no guarantee FIFA will approve.
If you had Rose play with Spain I believe you would see something different.
It's an issue of what the US recruits and brings to camps. There are other players that have that potential, but they usually passed over.
There are more kids who have the capability to play smarter than the standard of the US players and decent percent of them have the ability to play for other countries. This is something the US has to pay a bit more attnetion to with how they are picking at the youth level.
In fact, the US sent a gentle warning to all the pool players last year reminding them to be careful about where they choose to play because they would have go back to FIFA to request a change in sporting nationality should they decide to change. It read like if you pick another country and want to play for the US you have appeal to FIFA and there is no guarantee FIFA will approve.
One of the advantage of the men's side (even though the pickings on that end are lighter). They know where to look: either Europe or in the MLS Academies. The problem there is transitioning the U20s to pro side opportunities, given the low salary opportunities in the US and the restrictions into Europe based on immigration laws.
On the women's side scouting is a real problem. The European academies and the professional opportunities in the US don't leave that many opportunities for the olders. For the 18-22 college is one big cesspool of a mess. For the u18, you are really beholden to the clubs and how they chose to build out the teams. It's easier if you have an academy track, but given it will be very small, it will involve peeling away girls from the college track (which may cause a loss of talent opportunities). Don't really see a way out of the scouting problem for the US which will get worse regardless of which way they go and time moves on. Just doing better doesn't really help either because unlike the boys in the academies there isn't a consistent style which all these pools play in or a consistent type of player the pools select for.
Orangeteam
SILVER ELITE
A former US Soccer exec told a very talented player in NorCal that "she was playing a game technically and mentally in a way that no one else could keep up with and that would be a problem as she entered the YNT pools because they don't know how to work the players like you."
I do film and onsite scouting for this kids, and several others for a another country's federation so I hear some interesting stuff.
This problem has been known for a long time, it didn't just start a few years ago.
And the kid above is just and example, there are more of them being told the same thing. Alot of talent potentially going to waste.
1 thing that's definitely not happening on the boys side....the main reason besides size that the boys get turned away from at the academy is speed of play.
Where the boys academy problems are is that talent is being lost at the younger end (since they don't start until middle school....ton of talented kids playing Latino league for example that just don't get picked up because they aren't playing at a club like strikers or their parents can't afford even TFA and by U13 they haven't developed enough to the point where they are pickable) and the older end U20 (since there's no real pathway from U20 to get actual minutes on MLS...our second division teams are too far and few between and don't have the salary to make it a living wage).
CoachReed68
BRONZE
Absolutely correct. The quality of technical ability in ECNL is quite embarrassing IMO. I'm sick of watching ping pong kickball between the half-spaces. I also agree about SD Surf being an exception.
CoachReed68
BRONZE
MAGA in soccer! LOL
Surf 100% is the exception and MLVA!