I noticed not even a Pandemic could take down Pay to Play...

[Messi>CR7]

Thanks for responding. Good point about including leagues other than NWSL in conversation. Just that on the girls side, soccer is the fastest growing sport and 10 years from now might become a new revenue stream for NFL owners. Certainly not competing with NFL in any significant way.

Unfortunately, you’re probably right that it doesn’t make sense. Girls soccer in the US will remain mostly a pay to play model - the expense justified by either getting a fractional sliver of scholarship money, or more commonly, as a way to get a leg up on equally qualified applicants to top Universities.

There are 26 MLS teams now and going to be 30 in a few years, and most consider MLS to be a second or third tier league in term of level of competition. That means there are plenty of investors for soccer if there is money to be made. If NWSL does not attract investors, that means there is no ROI in it.

Pro leagues are in the entertainment business and they need to provide enough value to sustain themselves. Any league that requires subsidy will always be in limbo and will most likely have terrible pay for the players.

 

[tjinaz]

Sure. Volunteer organizations have a harder time telling problem parents to take a hike. Professional organizations have a hard time extending services into lower income areas. Ultimately, you need both types of club.

But, if you want to serve low income areas, you’re going to make use of volunteers. When you look at the map, it’s pretty clear that pay to play isn’t reaching working class neighborhoods.

Do recruiters still go to state cup as kids get older, or did that die as ECNL grew?

My DD played on a Challenge team at U11 and it was great. Low cost, good team great parents. Team originally was rec but was really good so they jumped the fence into competitive. Coach was a dad but his family was from South America and was really into soccer, had a passion for it and it showed. Team did very well and started moving up leagues. Once they got near the top as the girls got older they started getting destroyed by the big club teams and this was a shock. They were used to winning all the time. Top clubs had resources AYSO didn't have. Camps, quality skill training, strength and agility, other quality coaches for backups and advice. Coach decided to take the entire team and join a competitive club. They still do pretty well to this day and of the original 11, 9 are still with the team. We left due to daddy ball. Volunteers usually start coaching their own kids, they develop a taste for it and keep going. Sure many know why daddy ball is a bad idea but when you are using volunteers you take what you can get. I think this scenario plays out a lot on AYSO United and illustrates the limitations of their system.

 

[dad4]

My DD played on a Challenge team at U11 and it was great. Low cost, good team great parents. Team originally was rec but was really good so they jumped the fence into competitive. Coach was a dad but his family was from South America and was really into soccer, had a passion for it and it showed. Team did very well and started moving up leagues. Once they got near the top as the girls got older they started getting destroyed by the big club teams and this was a shock. They were used to winning all the time. Top clubs had resources AYSO didn't have. Camps, quality skill training, strength and agility, other quality coaches for backups and advice. Coach decided to take the entire team and join a competitive club. They still do pretty well to this day and of the original 11, 9 are still with the team. We left due to daddy ball. Volunteers usually start coaching their own kids, they develop a taste for it and keep going. Sure many know why daddy ball is a bad idea but when you are using volunteers you take what you can get. I think this scenario plays out a lot on AYSO United and illustrates the limitations of their system.

daddy ball? You mean parents joining in the team scrimmage? Or the coach keeps his dd in the game and other players on the bench?

 

[tjinaz]

daddy ball? You mean parents joining in the team scrimmage? Or the coach keeps his dd in the game and other players on the bench?

Coach gave opportunities to his DD and her bestie (daughter of his best friend and team manager) others never got. Also he never really worked on making the players more rounded. He had the same players in the same role year after year. If he put you at center back you were always going to be center back. Doesn't sound bad but when you consider they started at U9 it is a long time. Players from that team would get fed up and have tried out for other clubs but would never make the equivalent team in the new club. Think this is a case of the sum being more than the parts. Players know their roles very very well and trust the others so while they are not as talented individually, as a team they are strong, but can never go anywhere else.

 

[Eagle33]

Coach gave opportunities to his DD and her bestie (daughter of his best friend and team manager) others never got. Also he never really worked on making the players more rounded. He had the same players in the same role year after year. If he put you at center back you were always going to be center back. Doesn't sound bad but when you consider they started at U9 it is a long time. Players from that team would get fed up and have tried out for other clubs but would never make the equivalent team in the new club. Think this is a case of the sum being more than the parts. Players know their roles very very well and trust the others so while they are not as talented individually, as a team they are strong, but can never go anywhere else.

In my experience a dad coach (no matter how good of a coach he/she is) can never be objective or unbiased in a team setting and that is a huge issue.

 

[tjinaz]

In my experience a dad coach (no matter how good of a coach he/she is) can never be objective or unbiased in a team setting and that is a huge issue.

Also another reason why most clubs have a 2 year limit on coaches. They can only coach the same team for 2 years then it goes to someone else. Kids change mentally and physically over the years and new eyes are much more objective as to current state and situation. Volunteer coaches would likely want to stay with the team and infrastructure they have created rather than having to start over and if you are not paying them... what leverage do you have?

 

[happy9]

The AYSO club teams has been around for at least 10 years. They used to be called AYSO Challenge now they re-badged to AYSO United. It is a lower cost alternative but end of the day it is volunteer coaches. If you find a good coach and stay with them it works but once you start to get competitive and recruiting and parents start to get more difficult. A couple of pain in the ass parents and the coaches start to either drop or decide to hire on at a local club and get paid for their trouble.

Good info, We've only been in AZ for a few years. AYSO teams and coaches that I've seen play good soccer. Reminiscent of grassroots coaches/leagues/players back east.

 

[Chalklines]

Pandemic will never stop parents of sub par players to open up their pockets to pay and have spots on top club and travel teams.

 

[Dirtnap]

My understanding that many AYSO regions were given Green light to start training.

I got the same email from my local AYSO region.

 

[Soccerhelper]

Daddy ball is classic. Reminds of this one time when I had to help a coach dad in baseball. Coach Dave and his two sons. Both of his boys were really good players. This Coach Dave made it to the minors and he was determined to make sure one of his boys made it to the big leagues. I played little league when I was a young boy and we had no Pony. So I was watching my son grow ages 1-6 and saw lots of speed and he was coordinated and athletic. I loved baseball and hoops so those were the two places I was heading first. I was curious to see what kind of player I had so I enrolled him Mustang Pony. BTW, this was a big mistake on my part. I thought my son would just pick the game naturally up at his pace and play 2nd base like his old man. Nope, coach Dave had these boys all on one knee saying, "yes coach, no coach, hum buddy and all these baseball terms." This team was Daves team and they already started travel ball the summer before and you said nothing when he spoke. He made boys cry every practice. My son and this other kid were regulated to the bench and right field. It was horrible and to this day my son thinks baseball is boring.

 

[Giesbock]

Coach gave opportunities to his DD and her bestie (daughter of his best friend and team manager) others never got. Also he never really worked on making the players more rounded. He had the same players in the same role year after year. If he put you at center back you were always going to be center back. Doesn't sound bad but when you consider they started at U9 it is a long time. Players from that team would get fed up and have tried out for other clubs but would never make the equivalent team in the new club. Think this is a case of the sum being more than the parts. Players know their roles very very well and trust the others so while they are not as talented individually, as a team they are strong, but can never go anywhere else.
[/

Pandemic will never stop parents of sub par players to open up their pockets to pay and have spots on top club and travel teams.

And parents of above-par players won’t? From your statement, you must think your player is above-par.

 

[Chalklines]

And parents of above-par players won’t? From your statement, you must think your player is above-par.

Nope, both of my kids are maybe average on a good day but they dont play for big clubs. You could even call them sub par.

Over the years on both my son and daughters team we have seen family's come and go from top teams and top flights who really never fit the part.

 

[Giesbock]

Nope, both of my kids are maybe average on a good day but they dont play for big clubs. You could even call them sub par.

Over the years on both my son and daughters team we have seen family's come and go from top teams and top flights who really never fit the part.

I jumped to the wrong conclusion. Sorry bout that!

my kid came up from rec AYSO through their extra program and then due to daddy coach syndrome she and others formed a training squad with no club affiliation for 2 years.They used to occasionally scrimmage club teams and wondered what the fuss was all about..

 

[MacDre]

My thoughts as a parent whose kid was developed in another system on daddy ball vs. pay to play:
Daddy ball will eventually win because pay to play will not be sustainable over the long term. I’d say that by the time our kids are grandparents, pay to play will be rendered obsolete. By then we’ll have a couple generations of soccer players and a better soccer culture and folks are gonna balk at paying the high pay to play fees. In TJ, 95% of parents forgo putting their kids in the Xolo’s pay to play program ($30 per month) and opt for a ghetto ass version of daddy ball ($3 per month & a occasional after game snack).

My kid has benefited greatly from daddy ball. And yes, the dad’s favored their kids on every team that she has played on. However, she still received more than enough playing time because of the vast soccer culture in TJ. So for the kids like my daughter that ALWAYS rode the pine, they were invited to play in other games to get minutes.

So, I predict pay to play will become obsolete after we have a few more generations of players under our belt AND daddy ball will be much more palatable once our soccer culture improves because it will provide more opportunities for bench riders to play.

 

[Soccerhelper]

My thoughts as a parent whose kid was developed in another system on daddy ball vs. pay to play:
Daddy ball will eventually win because pay to play will not be sustainable over the long term. I’d say that by the time our kids are grandparents, pay to play will be rendered obsolete. By then we’ll have a couple generations of soccer players and a better soccer culture and folks are gonna balk at paying the high pay to play fees. In TJ, 95% of parents forgo putting their kids in the Xolo’s pay to play program ($30 per month) and opt for a ghetto ass version of daddy ball ($3 per month & a occasional after game snack).

My kid has benefited greatly from daddy ball. And yes, the dad’s favored their kids on every team that she has played on. However, she still received more than enough playing time because of the vast soccer culture in TJ. So for the kids like my daughter that ALWAYS rode the pine, they were invited to play in other games to get minutes.

So, I predict pay to play will become obsolete after we have a few more generations of players under our belt AND daddy ball will be much more palatable once our soccer culture improves because it will provide more opportunities for bench riders to play.

Wow, that long?

 

[MacDre]

One more thing, I hate it when I hear about the financial opportunities in the alphabet leagues.

My kid wasn’t offered anything by Surf or Lamorinda. I felt a lil’ love from Deza though. When I inquired about assistance, I felt most were evasive. I was offended by the process and my kid will never play club.

I also think the claims that if a kid is talented they wont have to pay is complete BS. The kids that need assistance should be evaluated when they are around 6 years old not at 14 when they have been excluded from the game...pure unadulterated BS!!!

 

[Soccerhelper]

One more thing, I hate it when I hear about the financial opportunities in the alphabet leagues.

My kid wasn’t offered anything by Surf or Lamorinda. I felt a lil’ love from Deza though. When I inquired about assistance, I felt most were evasive. I was offended by the process and my kid will never play club.

I also think the claims that if a kid is talented they wont have to pay is complete BS. The kids that need assistance should be evaluated when they are around 6 years old not at 14 when they have been excluded from the game...pure unadulterated BS!!!

Maps old club teams always helped families out with their goats who needed a little help. I 100% agree that 6 or 7 year olds need help.

 

[MacDre]

Wow, that long?

I think so. We need to build the infrastructure.

 

[dad4]

My thoughts as a parent whose kid was developed in another system on daddy ball vs. pay to play:
Daddy ball will eventually win because pay to play will not be sustainable over the long term. I’d say that by the time our kids are grandparents, pay to play will be rendered obsolete. By then we’ll have a couple generations of soccer players and a better soccer culture and folks are gonna balk at paying the high pay to play fees. In TJ, 95% of parents forgo putting their kids in the Xolo’s pay to play program ($30 per month) and opt for a ghetto ass version of daddy ball ($3 per month & a occasional after game snack).

My kid has benefited greatly from daddy ball. And yes, the dad’s favored their kids on every team that she has played on. However, she still received more than enough playing time because of the vast soccer culture in TJ. So for the kids like my daughter that ALWAYS rode the pine, they were invited to play in other games to get minutes.

So, I predict pay to play will become obsolete after we have a few more generations of players under our belt AND daddy ball will be much more palatable once our soccer culture improves because it will provide more opportunities for bench riders to play.

Daddy ball works in TJ in part because the daddies played ball as kids.

In suburbs here, it’s hard to get parents to volunteer as coach, even for U6. They are so full of self doubt about soccer skills, they forget that it’s play. But they have cash, and writing a check is easy.

Once more parents know enough that they aren’t scared of a 5 year old with a ball, it will get better. Even one generation should put a huge dent in pay to play for youngers. HS will take longer.

 

[Grace T.]

My thoughts as a parent whose kid was developed in another system on daddy ball vs. pay to play:
Daddy ball will eventually win because pay to play will not be sustainable over the long term. I’d say that by the time our kids are grandparents, pay to play will be rendered obsolete. By then we’ll have a couple generations of soccer players and a better soccer culture and folks are gonna balk at paying the high pay to play fees. In TJ, 95% of parents forgo putting their kids in the Xolo’s pay to play program ($30 per month) and opt for a ghetto ass version of daddy ball ($3 per month & a occasional after game snack).

My kid has benefited greatly from daddy ball. And yes, the dad’s favored their kids on every team that she has played on. However, she still received more than enough playing time because of the vast soccer culture in TJ. So for the kids like my daughter that ALWAYS rode the pine, they were invited to play in other games to get minutes.

So, I predict pay to play will become obsolete after we have a few more generations of players under our belt AND daddy ball will be much more palatable once our soccer culture improves because it will provide more opportunities for bench riders to play.

Part of the reason club ball exploded though was because of the numerous deficiencies in AYSO and other rec problems. One, as you correctly point out, is the lack of knowledge by coaches. That will be corrected over time as our kids have kids and coach rec programs. But my kids first coach on their first training session spent the time teaching them how on the whistle they should line up in a proper 3 point tackling stance and rush over the "line of scrimmage" to attack the ball.

Another problem though is the system is not tiered. When I was growing up, the future pro was expected to play on the same team as the handicapped kid. That was bad for the future pro (because if no one can pass you the ball you don't develop). It was also bad for the handicapped kid (because kids are smart, they want to win, they know who will lose the ball, so they don't pass to that kid, and that kid feels really bad about it and doesn't want to play). AYSO has become more tiered with Extras, AllStars/Select, and VIP, but it's still not a true tiered system like they have in the UK or Spanish rec. Reason my younger hopped to club was because he wanted to keep playing, he asked all his AYSO teammates to train but we got responses from no thanks we're doing other sports, or no thanks we have Disneyland annual passes and need to get back there. We had Disneyland annual passes too, but by then the kids had outgrown them and wanted to do other things.

Until they fix the tier problem, AYSO will still have issues. It's gotten better with the additional level creations, but even those are miered in a mixture of politics, volunteer credits, and the hunt for fast kids (instead of soccer players).