SoccerFan4Life
PREMIER
High school basketball is huge and scours will find the best players. That’s not the same for soccer because the market has created these academy programs so scouts don’t go to high school games.
I noticed not even a Pandemic could take down Pay to Play...
- Thread starter Franco2020
- Start date
AYSO expanded to AZ last year. This year they are fielding quality teams in the advanced leagues. They are doing great things in communities that will never participate in our esteemed letter leagues. They are certainly focused on rec league but have teams that are competitive within the higher levels of state league.
It's called Nike and Adidas sponsored teams for AAU basketball. No/low cost, very competitive and targeted recruiting in known areas of basketball talent. Not every AAU team is fully sponsored, most aren't. AAU is like the wild wild west. Pay a ton of money at times with zero exposure to anyone. The fully sponsored clubs have a longer reach and get the pick of the litter within their region. AAU is not a loved organization. Football isn't a high cost sport. College coaches are regionally focused and know where to look and are tied to the local HS coaching network. Apples to oranges when comparing how Basketball/Football players are recruited VS soccer players in this country.
Eagle33
PREMIER
On the surface this is 100% true. I think it's naive to think that there aren't large pockets of kids who play soccer (especially in socal) who have no idea that there are these leagues that sprinkle fairy dust on you and send you off to college. Let's be honest, the family down the street who has the "goat" but is unable to play in _____ league because they are a family of 6 with other expenses is different from the family outside of the bubble where the parents are busting their collective ass just to get food on the table. Most coaches aren't going to these areas to recruit, some will, most won't.
There is a club in AZ named Tuzos. They are affiliated with the Mexican League, play in the state league and have teams in what's called the Bimbolito League. Every year they are one of the best, if not the best boys club in the valley. Every year their players are poached, or entire teams are poached, with their coaches. The next year they again field some of the best boys teams in the valley. They have an endless supply of U littles. Their costs are very low to play.
Paul Spacey
SILVER ELITE
Financial restriction arguments will always be there in a pay-to-play sport but like many posters have said; if you are a good player you will usually find opportunities, whether or not you have the financial means.
The key to being a good young player has very little to do with coaching or money. It is about early engagement with a soccer ball from a young age. Notice I didn’t say specialization, that’s a different thing; early engagement just means being exposed to a soccer ball and basic fundamentals at a young age. Tom Byer (many of you likely have heard of him) talks about it at length and is the biggest proponent of early technical development via engagement with the ball. This is down to parents, not coaches.
If you have a young kid and want them to enjoy the game and be competent, have them learn the fundamentals. If you want to learn more about how to do this, look up Tom Byer or buy his ‘Football starts at home’ book.
I talked to my twin brother back in England about this when my nephew was born. He’s now 7 and for the past 2 years he’s worked on the basics of dribbling, passing and shooting (he does other sports but enjoys soccer so plays it more often). Because of this engagement at an early age, he passes, dribbles and strikes the ball with power, precision and the kind of technique you would expect from a much older kid. This now gives him an advantage entering competitive play with other kids; it’s just about having that base.
You pick up the technical skills and fundamentals from early engagement and repetition; this gives you a very strong foundation and then you can learn the game as you get older with the help of a coach (and of course by playing pickup soccer).
I’ve ranted long enough. Hopefully you get the point. Money doesn’t have to be a limiting factor.
The key to being a good young player has very little to do with coaching or money. It is about early engagement with a soccer ball from a young age. Notice I didn’t say specialization, that’s a different thing; early engagement just means being exposed to a soccer ball and basic fundamentals at a young age. Tom Byer (many of you likely have heard of him) talks about it at length and is the biggest proponent of early technical development via engagement with the ball. This is down to parents, not coaches.
If you have a young kid and want them to enjoy the game and be competent, have them learn the fundamentals. If you want to learn more about how to do this, look up Tom Byer or buy his ‘Football starts at home’ book.
I talked to my twin brother back in England about this when my nephew was born. He’s now 7 and for the past 2 years he’s worked on the basics of dribbling, passing and shooting (he does other sports but enjoys soccer so plays it more often). Because of this engagement at an early age, he passes, dribbles and strikes the ball with power, precision and the kind of technique you would expect from a much older kid. This now gives him an advantage entering competitive play with other kids; it’s just about having that base.
You pick up the technical skills and fundamentals from early engagement and repetition; this gives you a very strong foundation and then you can learn the game as you get older with the help of a coach (and of course by playing pickup soccer).
I’ve ranted long enough. Hopefully you get the point. Money doesn’t have to be a limiting factor.
Thank you for your insight. All of this that you mentioned with your nephew cost.......$0. Exactly what @Luis Andres has been saying. If you really want it, you make it happen.
another interesting thing about the AZ Tuzos is if they’re being poached, that means they are being recruited to play at a higher level and/or letters league. Once again proving that regardless of income, top clubs will always recruit the top players.
No doubt. Tuzos does the early development, then bigger clubs ride that through the older years. The bigger clubs know where to go to recruit. For this example, it's only the boys side. Interestingly enough, even with the poaching, the older teams continue to be competitive, with many of the opinion that they are still the better boys teams in the valley. There is also a sense of loyalty in that community. They are fun to watch. If you are ever in AZ during soccer season, check out the FBSL games at Fear Farm on the west side. Fun to watch.
HOME | Tuzos Phoenix Soccer
www.tuzosphoenix.com
All sports are pay to play. Somebody always pays whether the parent, school, sponsor, pro club, etc. Nothing is free. Does the cost justify the benefit, is the juice worth the squeeze for the person/entity paying? For most, the parent pays. That’s how most clubs are set-up. There are some ways to solve this for the future, fund-raise and generate endowments for clubs. It’s the university model for some academic and athletic programs, even to help pay for some coaches. The investment base over time covers fees and costs for the clubs. It’s a long term play. Crossfire in WA does something like this and covers a lot of costs for their top teams. The club leaderships needs to think differently. This model won’t help our kids, but could pave the way for the future. Its still pay to play, just a different spin.
Minimum MLS Salary is $65k, and NWSL is $20K...last place I would place my bet today for my kid. Hopefully, the effort put into this helps DD get into the right school she might not have gotten into otherwise, and provide the opportunity to play in college whatever the post-Covid landscape looks like.
Think about it...10 years pro (no business or real world experience for most), what do you do when your done? Coach? Enter the job force with kids 10 years younger. Your behind you peers big time...with a degree in the right major you will crush those minimums going right into the workplace.
Sports for the 99.9% that won’t sniff playing pro...is a hobby, like any other. It keeps kids active, out of trouble, generates a social circle (for both kids and family), teaches commitment, teamwork, working through adversity, etc. it’s a pretty good hobby as hobby’s go. I’d also categorize it as entertainment expense to some extent. There are lots of options, pay as much or as little as your budget can take. Your call.
Equestrian, Dance, Cheer, Music, LAX, swimming...all of them have coaches and clubs that require money to pay for those resources. Should they do it for free? The money comes from somewhere. Coaching is their profession, why shouldn’t they get paid for what they do, and make what they can doing it. Don’t you want to make as much as you can working?
I don’t get all the whining about pay to play. Sounds like some people think it’s ok for them to make money, but want to limit what they feel it should cost them for their kid to participate or what a coach should make. It looks like many do not see the value in what they are getting from their club. Maybe you at the wrong club if you feel this way. Free market economy, don’t want to pay, don’t play. YOU can pay as little or as much as you want for Johnny and Sally to play. The truly special kids will get on the right teams regardless of their socio-economic background. Talent usually finds a way.
Minimum MLS Salary is $65k, and NWSL is $20K...last place I would place my bet today for my kid. Hopefully, the effort put into this helps DD get into the right school she might not have gotten into otherwise, and provide the opportunity to play in college whatever the post-Covid landscape looks like.
Think about it...10 years pro (no business or real world experience for most), what do you do when your done? Coach? Enter the job force with kids 10 years younger. Your behind you peers big time...with a degree in the right major you will crush those minimums going right into the workplace.
Sports for the 99.9% that won’t sniff playing pro...is a hobby, like any other. It keeps kids active, out of trouble, generates a social circle (for both kids and family), teaches commitment, teamwork, working through adversity, etc. it’s a pretty good hobby as hobby’s go. I’d also categorize it as entertainment expense to some extent. There are lots of options, pay as much or as little as your budget can take. Your call.
Equestrian, Dance, Cheer, Music, LAX, swimming...all of them have coaches and clubs that require money to pay for those resources. Should they do it for free? The money comes from somewhere. Coaching is their profession, why shouldn’t they get paid for what they do, and make what they can doing it. Don’t you want to make as much as you can working?
I don’t get all the whining about pay to play. Sounds like some people think it’s ok for them to make money, but want to limit what they feel it should cost them for their kid to participate or what a coach should make. It looks like many do not see the value in what they are getting from their club. Maybe you at the wrong club if you feel this way. Free market economy, don’t want to pay, don’t play. YOU can pay as little or as much as you want for Johnny and Sally to play. The truly special kids will get on the right teams regardless of their socio-economic background. Talent usually finds a way.
Who is whining? I think it's an interesting conversation to have. The comparison is being drawn between how the rest of the world does Soccer, and Soccer american style. This is a soccer forum full of parents who dish out plenty of money for little jonny and betty to play , whether it be for college aspirations or just gaining some life experience. It's good to expose your kid to an experience that enables them to contribute something positive to society later in life.
And yes, there is an entire population of kids, just outside of your bubble, that will never see the light of day in an ECNL/GA kit because they can't afford it. Self proclaimed high level club sports will never be free. Smaller segments of the population will be able to afford, most won't. That's just reality. There will be some accommodations in the form of "scholarships", but those are never in the interest of said families, they are in the interest of the club and the desire to win. I've even seen parents pool money together to enable a player to play. While that is great, it's not likely that they are being truly altruistic, they want to win.
I don't know the exact salaries of our club coaches, but I'm pretty sure they are being paid as best they can be paid. I hope they are making good money. They've been nothing but a positive influence on my two delinquents, forcing them to make decisions on a weekly basis.
I don't see any whining going on from people regarding paying competent coaches. I think the discussion has been quite healthy regarding whether pay to play affects the quality of play. I'm happy to pay because my children are getting the value for what I'm paying but that doesn't mean I'm blind to what others may not be able to afford and how that affects the game of soccer. I think my child is missing out on some good competition/teammates bc of pay to play. I've seen it through the years. Pay to play, along with other factors, reduces the quality of competition within American soccer.
The best equalizer to pay and play is a knowledgeable parent or involved family member that teaches the child soccer without fees. We can do this for free if we have soccer experienced volunteer adults coaching at after school sports programs. Giving back to the community through youth sports is very important to our society, in terms of reducing health care costs and providing a purpose for kids during after school hours.
Another suggestion, clubs reaching out to local elementary schools & junior high schools in underserved communities and having their coach do after school programs for free, 1-2 hours a day? Yes- our clubs fees will subsidize this but it helps to expand the player pool, their increasing the overall quality. It might end up being a great recruiting tool too for the clubs and they're doing what non-profit groups should do.
RSL-AZ recently brought over full teams from Tuzos and simply re-badged them. I believe they were the top 09/10 boys teams. Not sure. Also not sure what resources RSL will give to them other than the new spiffy uniforms.No doubt. Tuzos does the early development, then bigger clubs ride that through the older years. The bigger clubs know where to go to recruit. For this example, it's only the boys side. Interestingly enough, even with the poaching, the older teams continue to be competitive, with many of the opinion that they are still the better boys teams in the valley. There is also a sense of loyalty in that community. They are fun to watch. If you are ever in AZ during soccer season, check out the FBSL games at Fear Farm on the west side. Fun to watch.
HOME | Tuzos Phoenix Soccer
I honestly think this is another reason for ODP. While it is pay to play as well it give a chance for exposure for under $100. While its pretty much a joke in AZ due to the politics it does give players from lower level teams the ability to show what they have to upper level coaches. I know one 07 girl that pretty much got offered a ECNL slot right on the spot after the initial pool selection. Then her team dropped a league when she left.
SCDS did the same thing to the 06 and 07 boys a few years ago in prep to enter the DA on the boys side. Tuzos somehow manages to reload every year.
Goalie1310
SILVER
Our kids are not playing the best of the best , They are playing the kids that can afford it.
From what I remember scouts go to High School Football,Basketball and Baseball games and if you are a baller you will get looks , very little money spent on the other sports now in my opinion. I grew up in time when training was done outside with the neighborhood kids no parents around we went through our own seasons playing all the big 3 sports that is the biggest difference that is why we are so good at the other 3 you play with everyone no age or size weight rules you just played no rolling around or crying allowed LOL and most of all no parents around to complain it was pure passion for playing with your crew and destroying whoever showed up. Soccer at the time was pretty much non existent At the time 80’s-90’s here in LA but that’s how they play in other countries just soccer no parents no BS . We were lucky enough to play in Spain in the Mediterranean International Cup and made it to the semifinals vs Fc Barcelona la Macia Which in my opinion are some of the best in the world in our age group B07 well what I realized is we are not ready to be as good as them because we don’t live it like they do. Talking with the parents of these amazing players this is what I learned. First most of the roster of kids on that team were not from Barcelona they were from all over the world most parents here I don’t think are ready to part with their kid at that age. 2nd they are all in , school is not talked about they are training to go pro. 3rd They train 5 days a week twice a day. 4th they don’t talk about wins they don’t break their system parents are silent on the sidelines and not coaching or complaining and let me tell you most of you are not ready for how much more physical it is over there. 5th soccer is free I could go on but I think you get the point I attached the link for the game vs Barcelona below yes we look tiny because we played a year up in that tournament . The crowd size was amazing for that age those kids are like rock stars over there.
It's nice to hear what/how youth soccer was in Spain, UK, and etc.
1. But this is US. It's different here. You can't just apply blindly here from what's working there. Yes, you can take something that might be useful and try here.
2. No parents? How do you see kids getting to practices and games when there is no public transportation infrastructure in towns? Don't tell me when you were 10 years old and was living in Madrid or London you used to get on bus by yourself. You will get in so much trouble here letting your child alone on the bus if there is a bus.
3. "They train 5 days a week twice a day" - Thank you but no thank you. We don't have here 25 different pro or semi pro divisions where you can end up playing if your goal to be a professional soccer player. Here, the best (and only one) pro league is MLS, right? The starting salary is what around 65K? Working at McDonald's almost gives you the same income without any injuries (hopefully).
4. In Europe, parents who came to watch their kids playing are silent on the sidelines? Please!!!
5. "soccer is free". You mean we talk here relentlessly about Pay to Play system and what could be done about it and you just say it should be free.
@Emma and @happy9 I guess we have a different definition of whining which is ok, sounds like whining to me maybe not to others. I get that. Sure there is healthy conversation about it. The biggest difference between soccer in the US and the majority of the rest of the world is soccer is the #1 sport, where here it #5 behind the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL...its not even close from a revenue perspective $1.2B for MLS and $4.7B for Hockey at #4. Its going to be a long-time before Soccer cracks the top 4. For the 5th rated sport in this country, which we all love because we post, read, spend time here, we played or our kids play(ed), etc...soccer does not grab the attention of the masses on a day-to-day basis like the other sports (Olympics/WC/Big Tournaments are the exception), or garner the same advertising revenue as the ohers...that is why it is 5th. Nobody is going to pump money to remove a pay-to-play system unless there is a financial return to it. NWSL is struggling, MLS is doing well, but can't support an Academy System yet on both the Boys and Girls side, i.e. Earthquakes and LAG. Why should they pay when the parents will? It's all pay-to-play. Somebody always pays. Nothing is free. As long as there are families that have disposable income to support a sport/activity/hobby their kids enjoy there will be organizations that will gladly take it.
Look at the movement of players going to Europe especially on the Women's side....Lots of men's and women's players going overseas. They do soccer better around the world because it is the top dog, soccer here is the 5th choice $$$ wise. The women's game is picking up world wide, and the Women's EPL will be Top Dog soon. Why are other countries better than us on the men's side? Most of the best male athletes in the US choose other sports that are more lucrative. They do not choose soccer, many of our best athletes do not play...ever watched Chad Johnson (Ochocinco) play soccer and fool around? A lot of these guys could or would have been really great soccer players. Women's side is different. The US dominates here (now...but the world is gaining) because many of the best female athletes do choose soccer.
I love soccer, I enjoyed playing, it is a great game, fun to watch, and I enjoy watching a good match-up in the EPL, Budesliga, La Liga, Liga MX, MLS, etc.... I also enjoy watching the Cowboys (no judgement please), Mavericks, Stars, and Rangers play as those are my hometown teams. As much as I love soccer, I will watch the the Cowboys play over all of them. Only games/events that supersede the Cowboys game are my DD's games and events (glad DTV can record). Soccer is not part of our culture like it is in other countries.
I guess my point is pay-to-play is not going anywhere anytime soon, it's going to be here a while. Wishing soccer to be something it is not in this country is not going to get us far. Improve and build on what we do have...How do you make the current pay-to-play model better?
Look at the movement of players going to Europe especially on the Women's side....Lots of men's and women's players going overseas. They do soccer better around the world because it is the top dog, soccer here is the 5th choice $$$ wise. The women's game is picking up world wide, and the Women's EPL will be Top Dog soon. Why are other countries better than us on the men's side? Most of the best male athletes in the US choose other sports that are more lucrative. They do not choose soccer, many of our best athletes do not play...ever watched Chad Johnson (Ochocinco) play soccer and fool around? A lot of these guys could or would have been really great soccer players. Women's side is different. The US dominates here (now...but the world is gaining) because many of the best female athletes do choose soccer.
I love soccer, I enjoyed playing, it is a great game, fun to watch, and I enjoy watching a good match-up in the EPL, Budesliga, La Liga, Liga MX, MLS, etc.... I also enjoy watching the Cowboys (no judgement please), Mavericks, Stars, and Rangers play as those are my hometown teams. As much as I love soccer, I will watch the the Cowboys play over all of them. Only games/events that supersede the Cowboys game are my DD's games and events (glad DTV can record). Soccer is not part of our culture like it is in other countries.
I guess my point is pay-to-play is not going anywhere anytime soon, it's going to be here a while. Wishing soccer to be something it is not in this country is not going to get us far. Improve and build on what we do have...How do you make the current pay-to-play model better?
Franco2020
BRONZE
Great discussion. I agree with a lot of you and I agree that free is not an option in the US. MLS and other Professional clubs should be compensating clubs that have developed players that make it Professionally. Colleges should also pay some sort of compensation.
I guess my initial post was more about the discount provided for Fall season by some of these clubs, insignificant when you take into account that kids are not playing and practices are a boredom fest. Last but not least, some of these big clubs took in Government money and their coaches were all getting unemployment checks and probably making more money than as coaches. To add insult to injury, the majority of the clubs stayed extremely silent about refunds for the 2020 spring season (a season that never happened).. All of the sudden, it went from... poor clubs! to greedy bastards! =-)
I guess my initial post was more about the discount provided for Fall season by some of these clubs, insignificant when you take into account that kids are not playing and practices are a boredom fest. Last but not least, some of these big clubs took in Government money and their coaches were all getting unemployment checks and probably making more money than as coaches. To add insult to injury, the majority of the clubs stayed extremely silent about refunds for the 2020 spring season (a season that never happened).. All of the sudden, it went from... poor clubs! to greedy bastards! =-)
Why assume that low revenue implies pay to play?
The overlapping leagues raise costs significantly, for very little benefit. A basic pro/rel system would reduce travel, and travel related costs, with absolutely no harm done to the quality of coaching or play. You’d end up playing the teams near you that have similar records, just like you did back in U8. Far better than spending money on plane tickets to play some weak sauce team you’d never talk to if they didn’t have the badge.
Don't disagree with any of this. I don't think we'll ever make the pay to play model better in regards to soccer. We are not a soccer country and will likely never be. Not a bad thing in my mind, just the way it is. The pay to play model works for what it was designed to do - get to college. This topic makes for great conversation - especially for those of you that are soccer constrained!
. Now we can move on to arguing which pay to play league is better - The GA will eventually be the league of choice for the girls --> The experiment will pan out, the merging of DA training theory with ECNL freedom of choice (HS play in particular) will force ECNL to continue to harvest teams in an attempt to stamp out the GA. This will eventually water down the league so much that the former DA clubs will leave, realizing how wrong they were to so cowardly abandon ship in the first place.
The MLS will figure out their academy system eventually, sucking all of the top talent their way. Boys ECNL will shrivel on the vine or become the most expensive 2nd league in club sport history.
I think that's more of a CA thing, The rest of the soccer centric parts of the country are playing, and have been playing for a while. With that said, certainly a frustration for CA, which is the soccer talent mecca of the US. Which is why your top teams are traveling here (AZ) , under severe weather conditions, to play friendlies. Some of you may already be on the road or double checking lodging reservations as you prepare to come here this weekend. The Cactus Kickoff rarely (if ever) attracts top teams from anywhere.