I noticed not even a Pandemic could take down Pay to Play...

dad4 said:
Why assume that low revenue implies pay to play?

The overlapping leagues raise costs significantly, for very little benefit. A basic pro/rel system would reduce travel, and travel related costs, with absolutely no harm done to the quality of coaching or play. You’d end up playing the teams near you that have similar records, just like you did back in U8. Far better than spending money on plane tickets to play some weak sauce team you’d never talk to if they didn’t have the badge.
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I agree in areas like Texas, California, Florida and others (not trying to leave anyone out), NY/NJ, etc., areas with a population density where there are enough kids to support having multiple good teams in a geography to limit travel is a good thing. Its been nice having a break these past few months.

What these leagues like ECNL provide is the access to coaches, the opportunity to get in front of them. That is why parents pay for the badge, and for their kids to play against other "similarly" skilled kids.

Revenue matters IMHO...Facilities, Uniforms, Equipment, Insurance, Coaching, League Fees, Reserves for Scholarships, etc....Who pays for this? Supporting this this for 12 Teams (6 boys/6 girls) is not cheap. How do you propose this gets paid for?
 
Woobie06 said:
I agree in areas like Texas, California, Florida and others (not trying to leave anyone out), NY/NJ, etc., areas with a population density where there are enough kids to support having multiple good teams in a geography to limit travel is a good thing. Its been nice having a break these past few months.

What these leagues like ECNL provide is the access to coaches, the opportunity to get in front of them. That is why parents pay for the badge, and for their kids to play against other "similarly" skilled kids.

Revenue matters IMHO...Facilities, Uniforms, Equipment, Insurance, Coaching, League Fees, Reserves for Scholarships, etc....Who pays for this? Supporting this this for 12 Teams (6 boys/6 girls) is not cheap. How do you propose this gets paid for?
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Population density certainly matters. We lived in NJ for 5 years. On the boys side, the goal was to play at the Red Bulls Academy - fully funded. That was the top dog. Furthest travel was to PA our south jersey for league games (at the most 1.5 hrs) and a tournament our two out of state. The soccer was/is good, no reason to pay beyond what you were paying to play in a regional league.

The girls were the same, except that the "girls" clubs to strive to make was PDA (later a DA club, now an ECNL club). There are so many colleges and so many tournaments that coaches really didn't need a letter league to recruit. Of course, ECNL is making inroads as well as the GA in places like NJ. Marketing is great thing. Even surf is in NJ now.
 
Maybe this is counter intuitive or maybe just plain dumb but what if NFL franchises ( the other futbol) were to take NWSL under wing, help them support youth farm /academy system. Build quality of play, build appeal with female viewers, create new sponsorship and ad revenue streams.
The only difference in EPL is that the men’s team plays the same game as the women...

totally off? Or?
 
happy9 said:
I think that's more of a CA thing, The rest of the soccer centric parts of the country are playing, and have been playing for a while. With that said, certainly a frustration for CA, which is the soccer talent mecca of the US. Which is why your top teams are traveling here (AZ) , under severe weather conditions, to play friendlies. Some of you may already be on the road or double checking lodging reservations as you prepare to come here this weekend. The Cactus Kickoff rarely (if ever) attracts top teams from anywhere.
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Well guess what Happy, Great Park fields are shut down again. This time because of all the the fires. I will head out at 4am Friday and then get ready for the 5:30 match. 5 hour the way I drive. Reach 11 is where were playing all of our games and a great place to walk my dog. If we make it to the finals, we play at 1:50pm on Sunday.
 
Woobie06 said:
I agree in areas like Texas, California, Florida and others (not trying to leave anyone out), NY/NJ, etc., areas with a population density where there are enough kids to support having multiple good teams in a geography to limit travel is a good thing. Its been nice having a break these past few months.

What these leagues like ECNL provide is the access to coaches, the opportunity to get in front of them. That is why parents pay for the badge, and for their kids to play against other "similarly" skilled kids.

Revenue matters IMHO...Facilities, Uniforms, Equipment, Insurance, Coaching, League Fees, Reserves for Scholarships, etc....Who pays for this? Supporting this this for 12 Teams (6 boys/6 girls) is not cheap. How do you propose this gets paid for?
Click to expand...

Why assume we are paying $200 for those fancy new Adidas uniforms? What is wrong with a $20 kit from Score Sports?

Except for professional coaching, AYSO handles all of that just fine on less than $200 per season.

The question isn’t “who should pay for all these things we spend money on?”. The question is “why are we spending so much money?”

I have no problem if the wealthier families want to pay for fancy uniforms and professional coaches. But that isn’t for everyone. I’d like us to have better outreach to include more lower cost teams from lower cost areas.
 
dad4 said:
.
I’d like us to have better outreach to include more lower cost teams from lower cost areas.
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AYSO United. Lower cost uniform, not too many tournaments, lower fees. AYSO United did very well in the SoCal State Cup last year, particularly among the youngers.

Nothing in life is free though. There are tradeoffs to everything. The tradeoff here is that the organization treats soccer like little league: development is a lower priority...if they develop players those players when they get older may just go off to higher level teams...though they are backstopped by a crew of professional coaches to oversee things, the amateur coaches are of varying quality,...and many go into it not for the cash but for the glory of the win and to try to build a winning team (think fantasy football)....leads to usual short cut stragies: running game, long balls, kick it high over the GK, etc.

The other challenge for them COVID specific in Socal is that the entire pyramid recruitment has been destroyed by COVID. With no core season there's no way to ID All Stars/Select Teams. Extras teams were unable to do tryouts. United Teams that are already put together can continue training and recruiting here and there, but with big casting call tryouts stopped its very hard to build new teams.
 
dad4 said:
Why assume we are paying $200 for those fancy new Adidas uniforms? What is wrong with a $20 kit from Score Sports?

Except for professional coaching, AYSO handles all of that just fine on less than $200 per season.

The question isn’t “who should pay for all these things we spend money on?”. The question is “why are we spending so much money?”

I have no problem if the wealthier families want to pay for fancy uniforms and professional coaches. But that isn’t for everyone. I’d like us to have better outreach to include more lower cost teams from lower cost areas.
Click to expand...


That what I said earlier...pay what you are comfortable with. Yes, the option you propose exists today. A lot of kids participate in AYSO. If AYSO was a viable option for those playing ECNL, why are the kids playing for the other clubs? The answer to your question is pretty simple...I pay for the things I spend money on, and I decide what I spend my money on....some people like jewelry, cars, and some like spending money on track suits, tournaments and $200 Adidas Uniforms.

Is your kid playing AYSO, if not, why? Who pays for the outreach?
 
Here is a simple thought on why we pay $$$. Youth sport is a business. If there is a demand then you try to offer and sell. If there is a need or some sort of philanthropy then you get things for free or at good discount.
MLS teams have their academies at no cost, right? I don't know if it's a business or more like philanthropy. They can accommodate only a tiny fraction of those who want and deserve it. So for the rest who didn't make the academy (not necessary because of the luck of skills) there are non-mls academies pop up to deal with the demand. We love our kids and we pay (who can) for them to have the best possible experience. I think some parents (small number) paying and hoping their kids will get scholarships but majority understand what to expect and pay anyway.
 
Soccerhelper said:
Well guess what Happy, Great Park fields are shut down again. This time because of all the the fires. I will head out at 4am Friday and then get ready for the 5:30 match. 5 hour the way I drive. Reach 11 is where were playing all of our games and a great place to walk my dog. If we make it to the finals, we play at 1:50pm on Sunday.
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Remember - dogs aren't allowed at Reach. They can be walked on the trail south of the complex, but you can't take them near the fields. You also can't leave them in the car - people will freak out if you do. But anyway, I wish you safe travels and thanks for coming! Maybe we'll make it down for a game or two, Reach is just south of me.. It's awesome that Reach is being made available.

thanks for coming!
 
happy9 said:
Remember - dogs aren't allowed at Reach. They can be walked on the trail south of the complex, but you can't take them near the fields. You also can't leave them in the car - people will freak out if you do. But anyway, I wish you safe travels and thanks for coming! Maybe we'll make it down for a game or two, Reach is just south of me.. It's awesome that Reach is being made available.

thanks for coming!
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No dogs, that was me being a joker....lol!! I think I will drop off and watch live stream at hotel.
 
Grace T. said:
AYSO United. Lower cost uniform, not too many tournaments, lower fees. AYSO United did very well in the SoCal State Cup last year, particularly among the youngers.

Nothing in life is free though. There are tradeoffs to everything. The tradeoff here is that the organization treats soccer like little league: development is a lower priority...if they develop players those players when they get older may just go off to higher level teams...though they are backstopped by a crew of professional coaches to oversee things, the amateur coaches are of varying quality,...and many go into it not for the cash but for the glory of the win and to try to build a winning team (think fantasy football)....leads to usual short cut stragies: running game, long balls, kick it high over the GK, etc.

The other challenge for them COVID specific in Socal is that the entire pyramid recruitment has been destroyed by COVID. With no core season there's no way to ID All Stars/Select Teams. Extras teams were unable to do tryouts. United Teams that are already put together can continue training and recruiting here and there, but with big casting call tryouts stopped its very hard to build new teams.
Click to expand...
AYSO is gaining a decent foothold in AZ. I watched an older boys team play last week - I thought they were good, good enough to compete at almost any level in AZ. What stood out to me was the diversity of the kids.
 
Woobie06 said:
That what I said earlier...pay what you are comfortable with. Yes, the option you propose exists today. A lot of kids participate in AYSO. If AYSO was a viable option for those playing ECNL, why are the kids playing for the other clubs? The answer to your question is pretty simple...I pay for the things I spend money on, and I decide what I spend my money on....some people like jewelry, cars, and some like spending money on track suits, tournaments and $200 Adidas Uniforms.

Is your kid playing AYSO, if not, why? Who pays for the outreach?
Click to expand...
My AYSO region doesnt have united. If we did, my son probably would have played for united.

Daughter is a different question. She is a much higher skill player, so it is harder to find a team that fits. (Unicorn when viewed through parent goggles. I can't tell if she's a real unicorn, because I am the one with the dad goggles on.)

Anyway. Not really a story about my kid. It's more that she's having a great time, and I think we could do a better job opening it up to more kids like her. And the gaps in ECNL coverage hint that some high quality players are getting missed.
 
happy9 said:
AYSO is gaining a decent foothold in AZ. I watched an older boys team play last week - I thought they were good, good enough to compete at almost any level in AZ. What stood out to me was the diversity of the kids.
Click to expand...

The olders teams are a good outlet for high level players who are on the academic track in high school and want to keep playing but don't want to/don't have the time to do practices/games 5-6x a week. I've had a few players in interviews to my Ivy that went AYSO United after deciding the top flight club thing wasn't for them.

It's gaining a decent foothold in UT too. But difference there is UT plays a very similar game....lots of run and shoot, not much by way of building out the back. (Not saying there aren't AYSO United teams that build from the back....every coach is unique...just the incentives are for that not to happen).
 
SFR said:
It's nice to hear what/how youth soccer was in Spain, UK, and etc.
1. But this is US. It's different here. You can't just apply blindly here from what's working there. Yes, you can take something that might be useful and try here.
2. No parents? How do you see kids getting to practices and games when there is no public transportation infrastructure in towns? Don't tell me when you were 10 years old and was living in Madrid or London you used to get on bus by yourself. You will get in so much trouble here letting your child alone on the bus if there is a bus.
3. "They train 5 days a week twice a day" - Thank you but no thank you. We don't have here 25 different pro or semi pro divisions where you can end up playing if your goal to be a professional soccer player. Here, the best (and only one) pro league is MLS, right? The starting salary is what around 65K? Working at McDonald's almost gives you the same income without any injuries (hopefully).
4. In Europe, parents who came to watch their kids playing are silent on the sidelines? Please!!!
5. "soccer is free". You mean we talk here relentlessly about Pay to Play system and what could be done about it and you just say it should be free.
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1. I agree with you that’s why I said we are not ready to be as good as them.
2. No parents exactly you can’t even imagine or understand. When I was 10 like many others in LA we had to take ourselves to practice on a bike or walk sometimes a coach would pick up multiple kids. I am from LA and never lived overseas and plenty of 10 year olds take buses or walk to school where are you from?
3. I get it your not ready for that type of commitment and for good reasons as you mentioned. Again that’s why I said we are not ready to be as good as them. But you better believe kids are doing that for other sports here , we played everyday and that’s probably why we are very good at other sports
4. Again I know you can’t even imagine parents staying pretty much quiet (By quiet I mean no coaching and yelling at referees) on the sidelines because of what you see here. Now I watched 6-7 games and that was my experience at that tournament. It was refreshing.
5. If you want the best players it can’t cost what it does now. I will say again we are not ready to be as good as them because of everything you pointed out and because soccer is not what it is over there.

I Think you are in a nice little bubble and because you grew up with a different experience it’s hard for you to imagine . You do realize that kids have to walk or take the train here in LA to get places and yes I mean 10 year olds I was one of them in the 80’s when RTD was known for Rough tough dangerous LOL you LA 80’s cats you hear me. I said it in the first post another reason we USA is not ready because they will send their kid to another country to live and train no parents on site. You won’t let your 10 year old walk down the street .
 
happy9 said:
AYSO is gaining a decent foothold in AZ. I watched an older boys team play last week - I thought they were good, good enough to compete at almost any level in AZ. What stood out to me was the diversity of the kids.
Click to expand...
The AYSO club teams has been around for at least 10 years. They used to be called AYSO Challenge now they re-badged to AYSO United. It is a lower cost alternative but end of the day it is volunteer coaches. If you find a good coach and stay with them it works but once you start to get competitive and recruiting and parents start to get more difficult. A couple of pain in the ass parents and the coaches start to either drop or decide to hire on at a local club and get paid for their trouble.
 
Giesbock said:
Maybe this is counter intuitive or maybe just plain dumb but what if NFL franchises ( the other futbol) were to take NWSL under wing, help them support youth farm /academy system. Build quality of play, build appeal with female viewers, create new sponsorship and ad revenue streams.
The only difference in EPL is that the men’s team plays the same game as the women...

totally off? Or?
Click to expand...
Why would they do this? Pure charity? NFL does not want to promote rival sports or leagues. NFL teams while rich are a business why spend money to promote another sport that isn't related. Why NWSL? The could do Women's hockey, Softball or Volleyball. It just doesn't make sense.
 
Thanks for responding. Good point about including leagues other than NWSL in conversation. Just that on the girls side, soccer is the fastest growing sport and 10 years from now might become a new revenue stream for NFL owners. Certainly not competing with NFL in any significant way.

Unfortunately, you’re probably right that it doesn’t make sense. Girls soccer in the US will remain mostly a pay to play model - the expense justified by either getting a fractional sliver of scholarship money, or more commonly, as a way to get a leg up on equally qualified applicants to top Universities.
 
tjinaz said:
The AYSO club teams has been around for at least 10 years. They used to be called AYSO Challenge now they re-badged to AYSO United. It is a lower cost alternative but end of the day it is volunteer coaches. If you find a good coach and stay with them it works but once you start to get competitive and recruiting and parents start to get more difficult. A couple of pain in the ass parents and the coaches start to either drop or decide to hire on at a local club and get paid for their trouble.
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Sure. Volunteer organizations have a harder time telling problem parents to take a hike. Professional organizations have a hard time extending services into lower income areas. Ultimately, you need both types of club.

But, if you want to serve low income areas, you’re going to make use of volunteers. When you look at the map, it’s pretty clear that pay to play isn’t reaching working class neighborhoods.

Do recruiters still go to state cup as kids get older, or did that die as ECNL grew?
 
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