Bad News Thread

[N00B]

I'm also pretty sure that if the schools are still closed it's unconstitutional....cruel and unusual punishment under the VIII Amendment.

Damaging is my opinion. Assume that qualifies as cruel and concede that these times are unusual.

We’ve discussed the mental duress the current environment may have on children, but some (EOTL) have chosen to berate parents on this forum for for their personal stories.

I have my own recent experience with the damaging impact of policy on kids.

My middle-schooler (non-soccer player) was in a group chat with other remote students when one of them expressed suicidal thoughts.

Thanks in part to previous child safety training, I made sure it was reported appropriately for potential intervention, if necessary.

Folks, this is more than COVID in terms of impact.

 

[Grace T.]

Did you notice that you assume we will be socializing in each other’s homes?

That is how it spreads, you know. Why do you assume that we all will do the exact thing that spreads the virus?

That’s what I meant by we are spoiled. We can’t imagine life without dinner parties, restaurants, and casinos. So, after fighting against masks for several months, we finally put our masks on. Then we invite people over for Thanksgiving and Christmas so we can infect our friends and family.

Masks are not, by themselves, enough. We need to do more than that. But people here don’t seem to be very willing to do even half of what is recommended.

I've long said distancing is much more important than masks.

But to your point, not sure what you can do about that. The modest measures that you claim to support certainly aren't going to cut it. Short of an Australian style police state and people narking on each other, people are social creatures....they are going to socialize...you are asking people to give up millions of years of evolution and not be human.

 

[dad4]

p.s. how's Santa Clara doing? They've had a mask mandate since May? Correct me if I'm wrong please, but did they ever go back to indoor dining?

SCC opened indoor dining from Oct 14 to Nov 16.

It more than tripled our case numbers, just in time to kick start the Thanksgiving spike.

You are confusing mask mandates with mask usage. The second is necessary. The first is not.

 

[Grace T.]

Damaging is my opinion. Assume that qualifies as cruel and concede that these times are unusual.

We’ve discussed the mental duress the current environment may have on children, but some (EOTL) have chosen to berate parents on this forum for for their personal stories.

I have my own recent experience with the damaging impact of policy on kids.

My middle-schooler (non-soccer player) was in a group chat with other remote students when one of them expressed suicidal thoughts.

Thanks in part to previous child safety training, I made sure it was reported appropriately for potential intervention, if necessary.

Folks, this is more than COVID in terms of impact.

Yeah, my niece attempted suicide. My son's girlfriend's sister went full on anorexia. A water polo teammates sibling shot himself. All had mental issues, but this probably wouldn't have resulted without policies essentially asking humans to turn off millions of years of evolution and not be human.

 

[Grace T.]

SCC opened indoor dining from Oct 14 to Nov 16.

It more than tripled our case numbers, just in time to kick start the Thanksgiving spike.

You are confusing mask mandates with mask usage. The second is necessary. The first is not.

Again, short of a police state that raids folks homes checking their mask usage and social distancing, you aren't going to be able to control human beings and their hundreds of years of evolution that makes them want to seek out human comfort. You are asking for the impossible, which is why you are frustrated in the futility.

p.s. to see the limits of Karening and shaming, I highly recommend the series on youtube to you: CartNarq or Los Cartos Narcos.

 

[N00B]

Did you notice that you assume we will be socializing in each other’s homes?

That is how it spreads, you know. Why do you assume that we all will do the exact thing that spreads the virus?

Or it’s 5min with 20’ in an indoor space like the South Korean case example just published... and essential things the the grocery store or delivery services (most studies on surface contamination are based not on the delivery person contaminating package, but the origin and transit time... and don’t include door dash or same day delivery options).

 

[Grace T.]

I
Or it’s 5min with 20’ in an indoor space like the South Korean case example just published... and essential things the the grocery store or delivery services (most studies on surface contamination are based not on the delivery person contaminating package, but the origin and transit time... and don’t include door dash or same day delivery options).

Wow just looked up that one. It would explain a lot about the summer outbreaks in Fl-LA-TX-Az-SoCal too given airconditioning. (Side note: then I don't understand how airtravel isn't a highly dangerous superspreader possibility....yeah yeah yeah filters in modern aircraft but people are constantly removing their masks and can't reasonably be expected not to fiddle with them or drink for 2-4 hours, let alone a long haul flight....if someone's sitting right behind you with the Rona, I can't see how you don't get infected).

 

[N00B]

Wow just looked up that one. It would explain a lot about the summer outbreaks in Fl-LA-TX-Az-SoCal too given airconditioning. (Side note: then I don't understand how airtravel isn't a highly dangerous superspreader possibility....yeah yeah yeah filters in modern aircraft but people are constantly removing their masks and can't reasonably be expected not to fiddle with them or drink for 2-4 hours, let alone a long haul flight....if someone's sitting right behind you with the Rona, I can't see how you don't get infected).

To the side note: You’d have to run the same airflow analysis in the passenger cabin of a typical airplane to make any suppositions about that environment. My understanding is that the rate of air exchange is much higher on passenger planes than that of typical commercial ac units in an enclosed space.

 

[N00B]

Wow just looked up that one. It would explain a lot about the summer outbreaks in Fl-LA-TX-Az-SoCal too given airconditioning. (Side note: then I don't understand how airtravel isn't a highly dangerous superspreader possibility....yeah yeah yeah filters in modern aircraft but people are constantly removing their masks and can't reasonably be expected not to fiddle with them or drink for 2-4 hours, let alone a long haul flight....if someone's sitting right behind you with the Rona, I can't see how you don't get infected).

For AZ, FL, LA and parts of TX, relative humidity’s impact on viral sustainability in a given environment is significant and likely relates to spread. In some of those regions swamp coolers as an alternative/suppliant to AC in order augment the relative humidity may also be a factor, depending on prevalence.

 

[dad4]

I've long said distancing is much more important than masks.

But to your point, not sure what you can do about that. The modest measures that you claim to support certainly aren't going to cut it. Short of an Australian style police state and people narking on each other, people are social creatures....they are going to socialize...you are asking people to give up millions of years of evolution and not be human.

You’re using the “everyone does it“ defense.

No, not everyone does it. If you’re still hosting or attending indoor social events, then enjoy the lockdown. You helped cause it.

I still believe that masks and closing indoor venues would have worked during the summer if we had actually done it. You’re right that we would also need to impose fines for holding indoor gatherings. I’m ok with that. It’s better than what we have now.

 

[Kicker4Life]

You mean a paper mandate, or one that is actually enforced?

You live in LA Co?

 

[Grace T.]

You’re using the “everyone does it“ defense.

No, not everyone does it. If you’re still hosting or attending indoor social events, then enjoy the lockdown. You helped cause it.

I still believe that masks and closing indoor venues would have worked during the summer if we had actually done it. You’re right that we would also need to impose fines for holding indoor gatherings. I’m ok with that. It’s better than what we have now.

if you believe that you are living in an illusion because la county did that.

its not just imposing fines because la city also said they’d shut off the water of large indoor gatherings. It’s that to actually control that activity, which is behind closed doors, you need to create a police state: people reporting on each other, police checking people on the street where they are going (which is hard if you are allowing people out of their house to exercise or go to work....they’ll just lie), and/or police going door to door without a warrant to inspect people (in this country we have a constitution that has a problem with this)

YOU are confusing morality and public policy. The one hopes people can overcome as best they can millions of years of evolution recognizing even the dem leaders can’t do it and have repeatedly found cheating. The second bases it’s policy in reality. You are a secret totalitarian...you just don’t recognize it or refuse to admit it.

 

[Desert Hound]

You’re using the “everyone does it“ defense.

No, not everyone does it. If you’re still hosting or attending indoor social events, then enjoy the lockdown. You helped cause it.

I still believe that masks and closing indoor venues would have worked during the summer if we had actually done it. You’re right that we would also need to impose fines for holding indoor gatherings. I’m ok with that. It’s better than what we have now.

You like pounding that square peg into a round hole.

Closing biz down for 100 days? You actually advocate that? Pretty easy when your paycheck is guaranteed. Absolute madness.

From the San Mateo chief health official.

Morrow, a physician with a public health degree who has been San Mateo County's health officer since 1992, also has doubts about the new restrictions imposed by Newsom. "I am aware of no data that some of the business activities on which even greater restrictions are being put into place with this new order are the major drivers of transmission," he says. "In fact, I think these greater restrictions are likely to drive more activity indoors, a much riskier [environment]….I also believe these greater restrictions will result in more job loss, more hunger, more despair and desperation …and more death from causes other than COVID. And I wonder, are these premature deaths any less worrisome than COVID deaths?"

And then your state guy GHALY for health and human services in CA had this to say.


A reporter from the Los Angeles Times asked Ghaly, “There have been some criticisms, including from the Assistant Secretary of HHS, who said on Fox News, ‘I don’t know of any data that says we need to shut down outdoor dining.’ I’m wondering if you can respond to that?” Ghaly replied:

“As it relates to the question about indoor dining or outdoor dining, I think one thing that I have tried to message and emphasize is that right now we’re seeing such high levels of transmission that…every activity that can be done differently and keep us at our homes, not mixing with others, is safer. Those are going to be the tools that help us get this under control.
“So the decision to include, among other sectors, outdoor dining, and limiting that, turning to restaurants to deliver and provide takeout options instead, really has to do with the goal of trying to keep people at home, not a comment on the relative safety of outdoor dining.

You will not get people to shut down biz for 100 days. Financially it cannot happen. You will not get people to just stay in their homes for 100 days as well. Nor will you get people to pull kids out of schools (those that are open) and have their kids be at home for 100 days, etc.

More and more authorities will not enforce it either.

Southern California Sheriffs Rebel Over Gavin Newsom's New Stay-at-Home Order

Increasingly, it looks like California Gov. Gavin Newsom (D) won't have the muscle to impose his latest COVID-19 stay-at-home order.…

reason.com

It is amazing how you and others think that hey this sounds like a good WORKABLE idea.

 

[crush]

Yeah, my niece attempted suicide. My son's girlfriend's sister went full on anorexia. A water polo teammates sibling shot himself. All had mental issues, but this probably wouldn't have resulted without policies essentially asking humans to turn off millions of years of evolution and not be human.

My dd has a friend who is so beautiful. However, she thinks she's fat and makes herself puke. She has been alone for the last 5 months. Her parents marriage was horrible before Rona and now it's over. Dad left for a 28 year old model. He did leave a lot of cash behind but this girl needs love like no other. My dd has been helping her behind the scenes. I love my dd for caring for friends.

 

[dad4]

if you believe that you are living in an illusion because la county did that.

its not just imposing fines because la city also said they’d shut off the water of large indoor gatherings. It’s that to actually control that activity, which is behind closed doors, you need to create a police state: people reporting on each other, police checking people on the street where they are going (which is hard if you are allowing people out of their house to exercise or go to work....they’ll just lie), and/or police going door to door without a warrant to inspect people (in this country we have a constitution that has a problem with this)

YOU are confusing morality and public policy. The one hopes people can overcome as best they can millions of years of evolution recognizing even the dem leaders can’t do it and have repeatedly found cheating. The second bases it’s policy in reality. You are a secret totalitarian...you just don’t recognize it or refuse to admit it.

LA county made a show of a few people. They did not actually enforce the rule against indoor gatherings.

We had a great chance this summer to get the virus under control. We needed leadership from both parties to explain the science and the policies to the public. Instead, we wasted the entire summer arguing about whether to wear masks and whether to shut down known spreader locations. So we had a mid-summer surge at exactly the time we should have been watching cases fall close to zero.

By now, it’s been 11 months. Casinos are still open. We still have indoor church services. Take 300 elderly people, put them together in a poorly ventilated room for 60 to 90 minutes, and have them gamble or sing. Why? Are we truly incapable of predicting what will happen?

And don’t give me the “millions of years of evolution“ BS. New Zealanders are not a separate species, and they don’t have a police state. They managed it. We did not. If we as a people are screwing this up, it is because we as a people are doing something wrong.

 

[Grace T.]

LA county made a show of a few people. They did not actually enforce the rule against indoor gatherings.

We had a great chance this summer to get the virus under control. We needed leadership from both parties to explain the science and the policies to the public. Instead, we wasted the entire summer arguing about whether to wear masks and whether to shut down known spreader locations. So we had a mid-summer surge at exactly the time we should have been watching cases fall close to zero.

By now, it’s been 11 months. Casinos are still open. We still have indoor church services. Take 300 elderly people, put them together in a poorly ventilated room for 60 to 90 minutes, and have them gamble or sing. Why? Are we truly incapable of predicting what will happen?

And don’t give me the “millions of years of evolution“ BS. New Zealanders are not a separate species, and they don’t have a police state. They managed it. We did not. If we as a people are screwing this up, it is because we as a people are doing something wrong.

New Zealanders: 1. Have an island, 2. Were spared an early outbreak, and 3. Have engaged in some police state activities including mass lockdowns where people aren’t allowed from their homes, free speech and assembly restrictions, closing of borders so their own citizens were caught overseas, mandatory quarantines and enforced testing (the nz prime minister was even caught on tape joking that oh yeah we aren’t really forcing people to take the tests but if they want to get out of lockdown they’ll take it)

1. you say you are for minimal restrictions but it’s becoming quite apparent (using the tricks of the trade of other past totalitarians) that you’ll just say that (whether to justify it to yourself or others). You really are a closet totalitarian.
2. You are delusional. La has done everything you said you wanted. Now where are we? Now saying you want to stop private gatherings is akin to asking for very intrusive, possibly unconstitutional restrictions.

 

[dad4]

You live in LA Co?

Santa Clara. Masks didn’t really take off until August-September around here. It took 6 months for it to happen.

The change was mostly driven by stores, under threat of closing if they didn’t enforce masks on customers. And from there it filtered to the rest of society.

But we had quite a few outbreaks at construction sites, where people were too manly to wear masks. The county started closing them down after each outbreak “for cleaning”. The time cost of shutdowns was enough to convince construction companies that they should enforce masks on employees. But we had to infect a few hundred people first.

I know it probably seems like the world is shut down and everyone is wearing masks. Count the number of indoor gathering places that are still open. Casinos, churches, big box stores, bars and restaurants (in some places), private parties. Then add in the high density outdoor places like protests. We are still giving ourselves plenty of opportunities to spread this.

 

[Grace T.]

My dd has a friend who is so beautiful. However, she thinks she's fat and makes herself puke. She has been alone for the last 5 months. Her parents marriage was horrible before Rona and now it's over. Dad left for a 28 year old model. He did leave a lot of cash behind but this girl needs love like no other. My dd has been helping her behind the scenes. I love my dd for caring for friends.

one of the things I can’t begin to comprehend is being stuck working at home with a spouse you are having issues with 24/7, with no place to go for a break.

I know it probably seems like the world is shut down and everyone is wearing masks. Count the number of indoor gathering places that are still open. Casinos, churches, big box stores, bars and restaurants (in some places), private parties. Then add in the high density outdoor places like protests. We are still giving ourselves plenty of opportunities to spread this.

I thought you were for minimal shutting indoor dining+masks? Now you are saying you’d shut all these down too? Also never mind the churches (which btw under the ny decision are suing California and the lower courts have been instructed by scotus to apply their reasoning in the ny case)...gonna set the constitution aside there? Protests...gonna set aside the constitution there AND violently suppress the blm protests there? And have police go door to door for private parties without a warrant....gonna set aside the constitution there. You ARE a closet totalitarian. The mask has finally slipped so to speak

 

[dad4]

New Zealanders: 1. Have an island, 2. Were spared an early outbreak, and 3. Have engaged in some police state activities including mass lockdowns where people aren’t allowed from their homes, free speech and assembly restrictions, closing of borders so their own citizens were caught overseas, mandatory quarantines and enforced testing (the nz prime minister was even caught on tape joking that oh yeah we aren’t really forcing people to take the tests but if they want to get out of lockdown they’ll take it)

1. you say you are for minimal restrictions but it’s becoming quite apparent (using the tricks of the trade of other past totalitarians) that you’ll just say that (whether to justify it to yourself or others). You really are a closet totalitarian.
2. You are delusional. La has done everything you said you wanted. Now where are we? Now saying you want to stop private gatherings is akin to asking for very intrusive, possibly unconstitutional restrictions.

New Zealand is a democracy. Not a dictatorship.

And I have no problem at all with a police officer giving you a fine for holding a dinner party during a pandemic. Make it proportionate to assets to make sure it stings.

You say LA has done everything I wanted. How many flights out of LAX today? How many casinos open near you? When did LA close down indoor church servicess? How many cars on the freeways this morning? How many fines has LA given for private gatherings?

The fact that you assume private gatherings will occur is telling. LA is a mess for covid because the residents of LA are unwilling to follow the rules. You can‘t bring yourself to cancel the dinner party until the police are actually knocking on your door and checking identification. Even then you need to ask how large the fine is.

It’s as though the possibility of just doing the right thing is totally alien to you.

 

[Grace T.]

It’s as though the possibility of just doing the right thing is totally alien to you.

Not alien just goes against millions of years of evolution. Dude your dem leadership can’t even follow the rules: here in California our governors, our senator, our speaker of the house...let alone our la supervisor who says outdoor dining is dangerous and then goes out to dine..and all the dozens of others around the country.

glad we are past the “I’m just for common sense reasonable limitations” phase of your screed. No you aren’t. You are talking now about even shutting down air travel out of lax???

what you want is stomping on the us constitution. That’s totalitarianism even if democracy remains. Democracy and freedom are not the same thing, but then with your math background you probably never took political philosophy or read basic Aristotle.

Also btw be careful what you say dude...if your students find out you want to violently suppress blm you might find yourself with issues.