Silky Johnston
SILVER
this is a business plain and simple. Never about development it's like every other business money and power...
Academy vs. ECNL
- Thread starter silverstreak
- Start date
People are saying "it's a business" like they didn't know. Just about everyone here said ok to playing Club soccer so the kids would get away from the AYSO model, be in more serious, focused and intense atmospheres with better coaching, players, teams and competition. That ideal is what has fueled Club soccer and ECNL for years.
Now what if US Soccer comes in, ups the stakes a bit and says, "Stop pretending you are serious about developing and develop. Practice is now 4 days a week. The game and travel schedule is pared down and you will focus solely on this sport at this level. Oh yeah, we also want to have the Academy teams be at no costs to the players so the differentiators are now talent, desire, focus and drive and not how rich the parents are. Now let's go!".
So what are you doubters really mad about?
Now what if US Soccer comes in, ups the stakes a bit and says, "Stop pretending you are serious about developing and develop. Practice is now 4 days a week. The game and travel schedule is pared down and you will focus solely on this sport at this level. Oh yeah, we also want to have the Academy teams be at no costs to the players so the differentiators are now talent, desire, focus and drive and not how rich the parents are. Now let's go!".
So what are you doubters really mad about?
Silky Johnston
SILVER
I can only speak for myself . I am not mad but why does everyone pretend its about something other than what it really is? Have you ever heard this is a business from any club? Have you heard to get good you need to practice 4 times a week and we should absorb some of the cost? This system is broken we all know it some say something about it and then they are labeled winers complainers negative not loyal selfish whatever suits the case. I have been saying the same thing for years this is nothing new the only good part is US soccer is now saying the way you have been doing this since u8 is wrong. The guys we have let into our clique the same guys that have been shorting you all this time the guys who have continually put themselves aND the success of their pocketbooks in front of what your kid truly needs to have a chance in this sport they r ok now dont worry we will watch them feel better it will be cheaper for you.. I don't get it ...not mad just wondering why we have all been deceived for so long? Not mad just waiting for answers? I hope you r with a club not a parent. I would love for a club guy to answer those questions. ..
NoGoal
DA
No cost, fully subsidized? Have you read the thread?
The top players are already training 4 days a week. 2 days with their club, 1 day speed and strength training, and 1 additional day on the ball.
I spoke to a girls DA/ECNL coach and was told, 1 of the 4 days of academy will be film sessions.
No I am a parent. A parent with a kid in Academy and a kid in Club.
The girls Academy is being set up to eventually mirror the boys Academy. I hope this means the no costs for the player format also.
To me the issue is the girls have ECNL at all and that US Soccer is just now creating the Girls Academy instead of 15 years ago when the Women proved they deserved it.
Some kids aren't meant to play Academy. 4 days a week. Film training. Only playing soccer. It is for the kids who know that this game is what they want and they have the natural abilities to match the desire and focus they have.
I'm sitting with my best friend discussing this. Growing up we were on the swim team and I played water polo. Practice was 5 days a week. We didn't play tons of games, but we practiced all the time. A few tournaments, then league games or meets, playoffs, a few weeks off and start again. We weren't close to being Olympians, but we still worked hard all the time.
I love the Academy format. I raised my kids to have the same outlook on doing what they love and that is soccer. Other kids play for the friends. Both of my kids recently chose teams where they knew absolutely no one and have made a lot of new friends and earned the respect of the coaching staffs.
If your kids are playing to be with certain friends or just want a more varied lifestyle, don't even think about Academy.
Silky Johnston
SILVER
Yes I agree with your comments. But like I said I was looking for answers to some specific questions. It isn't whether the Academy system is right or wrong. Also I don't understand your comment: "the issue is girls having ecnl at all and that US soccer should have done this 15 years ago" I don't understand that part. So I guess my main question to you would be.. Why did it take them so long to do it? I can tell u it didn't take them 15 years to realize there was girls club soccer. So like I said before what gives?
Not sure what gives. We ask the same thing in our household. To me it has been sexism + capitalism. The general thought in the States for generations has been women professional sports are slow and boring and those who play them are sexually confused.
Realistically the only women's professional sports league to survive for more than a decade is the WNBA and that is largely due to the financial backing of the NBA. Until recently, soccer hasn't had a league financially stable enough to give a girl who dedicates her sports life to it an end product to justify it if the end line object is to play pro. Same could be said for the men's game though. MLS is set up so teams almost can't fail with cost sharing, profit sharing, no relegation or promotion, etc...
I know our "more age mature" family members continue to tell both our kids they should focus on basketball because that is where the long term future is if they were good enough to play pro. If their counterparts at US Soccer feel the same way, it would give insight to why the long flourishing girls side has lacked the Academy.
The other point people don't like to hear is that US Soccer has been experimenting with the Academy on the boys side for quite a while. The current direction started with the big German in charge.
Realistically the only women's professional sports league to survive for more than a decade is the WNBA and that is largely due to the financial backing of the NBA. Until recently, soccer hasn't had a league financially stable enough to give a girl who dedicates her sports life to it an end product to justify it if the end line object is to play pro. Same could be said for the men's game though. MLS is set up so teams almost can't fail with cost sharing, profit sharing, no relegation or promotion, etc...
I know our "more age mature" family members continue to tell both our kids they should focus on basketball because that is where the long term future is if they were good enough to play pro. If their counterparts at US Soccer feel the same way, it would give insight to why the long flourishing girls side has lacked the Academy.
The other point people don't like to hear is that US Soccer has been experimenting with the Academy on the boys side for quite a while. The current direction started with the big German in charge.
NoGoal
DA
CAM, for women the best pro sport to play with an opportunity to make millions are individual sports; like tennis and golf.
True
Jason Bourne
BRONZE
This is my first posting on this highly charged subject. I have read through many of the posts, and found great discussion points. From my perspective, I feel extremely fortunate to have two daughters gone through the ECNL since its inception. With my youngest daughter finishing her travel soccer career this year (2016/17) as a U18 player. If there is one thing I have learned about travel soccer is that coaches/d.o.c.'s/and managers; nothing in this crazy world of futbol/soccer is static. It is always evolving, and personalities between top soccer leaders can clearly be at odds with one another due to a multitude of reasons: 1) Money, 2) Control (i.e. Rules), 3) Direction, 4) Philosophy, and oh, yes.... 5) Money.
After putting some analysis on each of these categories, it becomes rather obvious to me that these two (2) sanctioning bodies (ECNL vs U.S. Soccer) have very little in common.....even the game itself, hence so much controversy over the matter. IMO, U.S. Soccer is on the losing end of this battle because of what the ECNL has been able to accomplish for the masses of very highly talented female athletes throughout the country, and did so with a strong female-athlete-centric basis in a relatively short timeframe. The ECNL female athletes that I know love the ENCL formula. College coaches love the one-stop shop to find talent and most have limited budget and resources to do their jobs well at recruiting. Put yourself in their arena for a second (as a college soccer scout); your job is on the line everyday to put together a successful soccer program by finding the best talent for your furthered success which in hundreds, if not thousands of instances (players) have nothing to do with U.S. Soccer WNT. Their mission is the match their program with the right players within an academic institution, and nothing to do with Carson City, CA National Training Centers. In the end, I think the ECNL has, and will continue to put the right talent in front of the right college coaches, with the right numbers and female-centric environment to be successful. It seems like it has and will continue to be a win-win scenario.
And if you think that just because the DA may have worked for the guys, you better think again. For the better part of a couple of hours, I had the privilege of listening to Anson Dorance from UNC talk about the differences between female and male athletes in team sports, and to put is mildly, the differences are "tectonic" and I was blown away by the level of his experience, frustration, and due diligence that this man went through to understand what it truly takes to coach female championship teams. He clearly sees both sides of this controversy (and is experienced on both sides, too), and his interview speaks volumes on the subject. I think I read it on Top Drawer Soccer.
My prediction is that we will see U.S. Soccer blink before ECNL after they wake up to the realization that the ECNL already does what they are trying to upend. Two words: Mallory Pugh............and many more to follow that are directly from the ECNL. Open to any and all comments.
After putting some analysis on each of these categories, it becomes rather obvious to me that these two (2) sanctioning bodies (ECNL vs U.S. Soccer) have very little in common.....even the game itself, hence so much controversy over the matter. IMO, U.S. Soccer is on the losing end of this battle because of what the ECNL has been able to accomplish for the masses of very highly talented female athletes throughout the country, and did so with a strong female-athlete-centric basis in a relatively short timeframe. The ECNL female athletes that I know love the ENCL formula. College coaches love the one-stop shop to find talent and most have limited budget and resources to do their jobs well at recruiting. Put yourself in their arena for a second (as a college soccer scout); your job is on the line everyday to put together a successful soccer program by finding the best talent for your furthered success which in hundreds, if not thousands of instances (players) have nothing to do with U.S. Soccer WNT. Their mission is the match their program with the right players within an academic institution, and nothing to do with Carson City, CA National Training Centers. In the end, I think the ECNL has, and will continue to put the right talent in front of the right college coaches, with the right numbers and female-centric environment to be successful. It seems like it has and will continue to be a win-win scenario.
And if you think that just because the DA may have worked for the guys, you better think again. For the better part of a couple of hours, I had the privilege of listening to Anson Dorance from UNC talk about the differences between female and male athletes in team sports, and to put is mildly, the differences are "tectonic" and I was blown away by the level of his experience, frustration, and due diligence that this man went through to understand what it truly takes to coach female championship teams. He clearly sees both sides of this controversy (and is experienced on both sides, too), and his interview speaks volumes on the subject. I think I read it on Top Drawer Soccer.
My prediction is that we will see U.S. Soccer blink before ECNL after they wake up to the realization that the ECNL already does what they are trying to upend. Two words: Mallory Pugh............and many more to follow that are directly from the ECNL. Open to any and all comments.
NoGoal
DA
Here we go again!
Hey Jason. That is a very well written posts. I'm not going to argue you point by point or disparage you. I just feel as if you showed a short sighted view of the ECNL vs DA argument.
Of course the majority of the players loved the ECNL format. It has been the only real top flight soccer for girls in the last two decades. Same for the college coaches who have a one stop shot for recruitment. ECNL should be honored for actually paying attention to the female soccer athlete in this country when our Soccer Association / Federation willfully ignored them.
To me the issue is ECNL has become a serious pay to play league. I know parents who will be forking out close to $5k this year for the trips and league and that doesn't include them traveling with the player. That is a barrier to our nations talent pool actually including the best players. From what I see the training schedules aren't more rigorious and neither are the standards of development each club is being held to for the best interest of the player. It is a more expensive side of Club that doesn't necessarily give an advantage in player development.
The boys and girls DAs don't have to be twin mirrors. US Soccer clearly has recognized that by doubling up the years in the age groups. They have already eliminated that on the boys side. To me US Soccer is coming into the game late, but not necessarily behind. At this point it is proven our country is a hotbed for this game on the girls side. The best players want to to play at a high level and a women's professional league is actually working. Now more parents are willing to have their daughter actually dedicate herself to the sport the way gymnasts, dancers and cheerleaders have and go 4 days a week. The female athlete herself now has a future to strive for that can entail playing soccer for a living until her body or mind say no more.
To keep this going we need to tap the best of the best and not just the well off financially. I personally think if I would have to pay the same price for each league - I want my athlete receiving the more structured and centered development program with less focus on the trips and more on playing high level teams and working on the proper concepts of the game. My hope is the cost of the DA is low limited amounts to free. Like I said - my son has been lucky enough to train in the DA system and his growth has been tremendous.
Sadly the politics, egos and power trips will remain in both systems.
meatsweats
SILVER ELITE
Sounds wonderful CAM. Except where is that $$ going to come from? Pay to play is the American way. And for the girls, it ain't changing soon. All your points sound great, but I can't see any sort of reality, at least for the next 5 years, minimum.
And just to speak on the ECNL teams that my DD has been on, there were at least 2 fully scholarship players and a few partials. Not everyone is paying $5K. Not saying there isn't missed talent, but I don't think it's as large of a population that is being portrayed. Most of those girls have been found. Maybe I'm wrong. But seems that teams are willing to find a way for great talent the make their way on the team, regardless whether it's ECNL, DA, USYS, etc.
And just to speak on the ECNL teams that my DD has been on, there were at least 2 fully scholarship players and a few partials. Not everyone is paying $5K. Not saying there isn't missed talent, but I don't think it's as large of a population that is being portrayed. Most of those girls have been found. Maybe I'm wrong. But seems that teams are willing to find a way for great talent the make their way on the team, regardless whether it's ECNL, DA, USYS, etc.
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NoGoal
DA
How is the NWSL a successful league, when the US Soccer Federation, Canadian Soccer Federation and Mexican Soccer Federation are paying their women national team players salaries? Eliminate the subsidy and probably a 3rd US womens soccer league folds. Fact, US Soccer only subsidies the Sr WNT, so the US Womens National Team remains dominant or on top of the ladder. If they didn't who knows what would happen to the womens soccer program.
I also agree with meats, I know of many teams, including ECNL teams who scholarship or provides discounted club fees for the families who need financial assistance.
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There are scholarships available directly from US Soccer for DA, which are intended to supplement the assistance that clubs already provide. The US Soccer scholarship website specifically notes the problems with play-to-pay, which is the reason for the extra aid. And unlike clubs, which essentially take the word of a parent of a talented player that they need the assistance (or they will leave), the scholarships from DA require a formal application process to determine actual need of all DA rostered players (more like college FA).
It seems like there will be a little bit more money to help out (not a bad thing). Plus the girls get two extra days of training, which they would otherwise have to pay for (again not a bad thing). There are trade-offs, like no HS soccer. But other than the that, this is a re-tweaked ECNL. Is there a downside, other than no HS soccer and some potential playing time issues for those on the bottom of the roster? Both are legitimate issues so I don't mean to downplay them.
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Do you really think the pay or scholarships if any,coming from US Soccer, will be any different than the scholarships already provided from ECNL teams that go to in most cases to a top player no matter what their parent's income level? Is US Soccer going to go into the inner cities and find the next Marta? Or is that money going to go to a kid in Newport Beach to lure her from an OC Academy team to an LA Academy team? C'mon man. And how are Girls Academy teams going to be funded without any pro teams to back them? Any funding will go to kids already in club soccer to make their money burden lighter. It's not going to expand this sport to lower income levels. ECNL was not perfect, nothing is, but it was successful. If US Soccer was interested in anything other than a power play, they would have worked with ECNL to improve their program and add more worthy clubs. Did I hear correctly that Hope Solo was only making a 75k annual salary for pro ball? The best Keeper in the world making what a truck driver from Wal Mart makes?
Yes, much different if they follow the boy's system. Check out the average household income of scholarship recipients. http://www.ussoccerda.com/scholarship-program
mahrez
SILVER ELITE
Yes & they require documentation: tax returns and look at income levels, above a certain level & you can't quailfy for anything.
ECNL or DA costs a club at least 2x more ( better fields, coaches, more games, etc) vs a regular club team. Around 5-6k per play x 18 or more and you need a bunch of $ each year. More pay to play is likley to happen with two high end leagues.
This is so true, but unfortunately there are not likely over 5000 girls per year who actually have these qualities, though I do believe that there are likely over 5000 sets of pushy parents who keep telling them their girls that they are good enough and driven enough that they "should" be placed on the DA teams. As a result, you will have full 23 girl rosters on these teams with the majority inappropriately placed there, and at risk for burnout that may not have happened otherwise.
One of the key differences b/n ECNL and DA, is that being rostered on ECNL does not lock you in to that team only. Many can be playing on an EGSL team and occasionally be asked to play with ECNL team.
meatsweats
SILVER ELITE
Correct. And yes, those are very legitimate issues for most of the players, GAME playing time and HS soccer.
And yes, you are correct again in that USSF is reportedly going to offer some scholarship money, but only to the first 25 clubs accepted into DA. $1.49M per USSF (link below). Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't benefit the other 50 clubs (700+ players) that were later accepted. Unless, of course, more money is coming. Am I missing something? Share away. I hope I am.
http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/201...-first-25-clubs-for-girls-development-academy
"These first 25 clubs have a total of 119 staff and coaches that hold a U.S. Soccer A or B Coaching License, and includes 91 coaches who are employed on a fulltime basis. To date, these clubs have produced 307 players for U.S. Soccer’s National Teams (youth and senior) as well as 84 professional soccer players. In addition, this group will be providing 276 full scholarships with a total of $1.49 million of scholarship funds being contributed. "
NoGoal
DA
if only awarded to the 1st 25 DA clubs that equals 3.5 scholarships per team (3 teams per club). If US Soccer is going to divide the 276 full scholarships to all 70+ DA clubs. That is about 1.33 full scholarship per team, lol! The net net, it's still PAY to PLAY!
Thank the lord, my DD is out of club soccer after this season and I've paid my DD's last club and travel soccer fees.
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