Academy vs. ECNL

[Silky Johnston]

That, of course, is true. The difference is, it's not player 1-11 that leaves ECNL for non ECNL, unless they are leaving a bottom end ECNL team. HOWEVER, I have seen starting NON ECNL players leave to ECNL losing teams. Saw that just this year. Frankly, I was confused. Given that the teams they left was ranked well and the clubs they left were just given DA. Saw this from two different players. Both starters and key players.

Not saying it doesn't go the other way too, but I've just not seen it. DA may change this. We shall see!

why would how good the team is have a bearing on where you take your kid? This is really the problem with club soccer in the US. What if you have a great coach with a lousy team and your kid is being trained and learning properly? If she is improving that's all that should matter. If you want I can give you all my Dds medals? They mean nothing winning shouldn't ever be the Primary Focus.. would rather be with a good coach than a winning team with a bad coach and 23 on roster.

 

[soccermanifesto]

I would argue if your daughter is on a consistently lousy team there's absolutely a ceiling to what they will learn and how much they will improve. You want to be playing with other players who have talent, a baseline level of tactical knowledge, and soccer IQ.

 

[Silky Johnston]

I would argue if your daughter is on a consistently lousy team there's absolutely a ceiling to what they will learn and how much they will improve. You want to be playing with other players who have talent, a baseline level of tactical knowledge, and soccer IQ.

don't disagree but it shouldn't have a bearing on where you take her initially. I know losing gets old.

 

[meatsweats]

why would how good the team is have a bearing on where you take your kid? This is really the problem with club soccer in the US. What if you have a great coach with a lousy team and your kid is being trained and learning properly? If she is improving that's all that should matter. If you want I can give you all my Dds medals? They mean nothing winning shouldn't ever be the Primary Focus.. would rather be with a good coach than a winning team with a bad coach and 23 on roster.

Nobody said it was all about winning. I think you are confused or it's something with your thoughts that has to do with your feelings on what the focus should or shouldn't be.

As others have said, and I'm an ECNL parent.....ECNL does not always mean you receive great coaching. I'm sure there are many reasons people move, ECNL or not. What I said is that I rarely see movement from ECNL to non ECNL for the starting 11 on the big 3-4 ECNL clubs, i.e., Blues, Surf, Slammers, etc. But I DO see movement from the top 2-3 non ECNL clubs, even if they are on national championship teams. MY opinion on this has NOTHING to do with winning. It's all about college exposure and currently, ECNL owns it. Even ahead of USYS National teams. Or why would those top players either leave, if they can or play as discovery players. Exposure. Plain and simple. Not winning.

That being said...DA changes everything!

 

[Silky Johnston]

Nobody said it was all about winning. I think you are confused or it's something with your thoughts that has to do with your feelings on what the focus should or shouldn't be.

As others have said, and I'm an ECNL parent.....ECNL does not always mean you receive great coaching. I'm sure there are many reasons people move, ECNL or not. What I said is that I rarely see movement from ECNL to non ECNL for the starting 11 on the big 3-4 ECNL clubs, i.e., Blues, Surf, Slammers, etc. But I DO see movement from the top 2-3 non ECNL clubs, even if they are on national championship teams. MY opinion on this has NOTHING to do with winning. It's all about college exposure and currently, ECNL owns it. Even ahead of USYS National teams. Or why would those top players either leave, if they can or play as discovery players. Exposure. Plain and simple. Not winning.

That being said...DA changes everything!

not confused reread the post I commented on. Everyone is in Ecnl for exposure. I don't know how DA changes everything and either does anybody else including the people involved with DA. Also DA for anybody above 7th grade really won't have the impact that Ecnl has right now. It will take time to get going .. not confused

 

[NoGoal]

I would argue if your daughter is on a consistently lousy team there's absolutely a ceiling to what they will learn and how much they will improve. You want to be playing with other players who have talent, a baseline level of tactical knowledge, and soccer IQ.

And college coaches want to see if a potential recruit can execute against top level players.

 

[SoccerDad77]

Can't you all just let it go? This is the same crap people said years back when ECNL started... ECNL then became the hotbed for the majority of top level talent in the USA (not ALL the talent, just majority)... Now the girls DA will take its place because talent always funnels to top clubs and coaches, and if you're not delusional or bias, you realize the top dogs are now moving to DA instead of ECNL... If you're the elite, highest level talent in OC, it's fairly obvious you're going to try and play for slammers/blues... Same goes for SD with surf... Inland with legends (previously Arsenal).. Etc etc all across the country. If you don't see that, then surely you will in a few years time... Let it go. It's over for ECNL as the highest level program ... I don't even have a daughter but as an outside observer it's silly reading all of the back and forth when you already know the real answer...

 

[meatsweats]

not confused reread the post I commented on. Everyone is in Ecnl for exposure. I don't know how DA changes everything and either does anybody else including the people involved with DA. Also DA for anybody above 7th grade really won't have the impact that Ecnl has right now. It will take time to get going .. not confused

If you don't think DA will have impact the first year, you're smoking some good wacky weed. I would agree with you if the TOP ECNL teams weren't the first to get DA status. But they did get it and if you think they won't put their best ECNL players on the DA teams, you're nuts. My DD happens to be at a ECNL/DD club. No guarantee she would even make DA status as the player pool is fantastic. Even so, ECNL will be diluted in 2017 with player movement and shift of focus of top players.

Look, recruiters can only be at one place at a time. Given a choice, they're going with DA. No, ECNL won't go away, but it will be impacted and diluted. That's a given.

 

[madcow]

If you don't think DA will have impact the first year, you're smoking some good wacky weed. I would agree with you if the TOP ECNL teams weren't the first to get DA status. But they did get it and if you think they won't put their best ECNL players on the DA teams, you're nuts. My DD happens to be at a ECNL/DD club. No guarantee she would even make DA status as the player pool is fantastic. Even so, ECNL will be diluted in 2017 with player movement and shift of focus of top players.

Look, recruiters can only be at one place at a time. Given a choice, they're going with DA. No, ECNL won't go away, but it will be impacted and diluted. That's a given.

I pretty much agree with everything you said. The Surf/ Blues/ Slammers A team girls will put on a new DA patch and the B team will put on the ECNL patch. That won't change. But, that is only for the first year... or even first half of the first year.

I think the Dual roster and restrictive sub rules will be big factors that most aren't considering. In ECNL you could have a roster of 28 (which sucked, btw). But in that roster, you may have 2-3 injured, 2-3 visiting colleges and/ or National camps and 3-4 dual rostered players that were on the B team, but trained with the A team and played when needed. In any given game, depending on the opposition, You could have your 11, plus 4-5 getting field time. That leaves a few girls not rostered or playing that game. But, the dual rostered girls can still play with their B team, though. Then when the National Showcases came around, those same dual rostered or not rostered girls could/ would play a majority of the games. It isn't perfect, but the playtime/ college exposure was spread around a bit.

With the DA, you can only play for one team and there is only 3 subs per game (if I remember correctly). With that same roster size, that leaves 2-3 injured, 2-3 out visiting and 4-6 not playing that day. Then you have 4 girls rostered but not seeing the field each game. That is 8-10 girls trapped on a roster. How long will player #22 hang around? Some girls will suck it up and hang out until the end of the season, then tryout for the ECNL team the next season. But some girls will quit half way through the season and move clubs, just to be able to play.
For players 1-15 or so, everything will be fine. But for the bottom of the roster...

My daughter's friend plays for the U18 LA Galaxy DA team. He said they started the season with 26, but they finished the season with 16. The boys just wanted to play and most would rather play for their home club than to not play for a fully funded academy team. I don't know if that is typical or just specific to this team.

Either way, the DA will have an impact, but the question is will it have the same impact the following year? Who knows, maybe some of the top talent moves to both the DA and ECNL and you could have 2 strong national leagues?

 

[tugs]

First transition year will tell a lot. My question (please share some info if you can) is how will this affect the college scouts/coaches? Will they have to attend both ECNL and DA (especially first few years as DA will have to get revved up and work out kinks?). Anyone have inside info? I asked a D1 pac-12 coach this question and he told me first year they will be attending both (just more work for them).

 

[madcow]

First transition year will tell a lot. My question (please share some info if you can) is how will this affect the college scouts/coaches? Will they have to attend both ECNL and DA (especially first few years as DA will have to get revved up and work out kinks?). Anyone have inside info? I asked a D1 pac-12 coach this question and he told me first year they will be attending both (just more work for them).

I imagine they will attend both (as budgets allow). The best thing that ECNL provided, was access to all age groups in one location. There are coaches that like girls from certain clubs. One coach could go to a league game and literally fill his/ her roster with players from Slammers for 4 years. The same with the National events. You could watch the Blues 17's, then spin around and watch the Blues 16s. Or move from one age group to the other.

I suspect the DA's showcases will be the same. The issue will be if they schedule those events at the same time in different parts of the US

 

[MakeAPlay]

I imagine they will attend both (as budgets allow). The best thing that ECNL provided, was access to all age groups in one location. There are coaches that like girls from certain clubs. One coach could go to a league game and literally fill his/ her roster with players from Slammers for 4 years. The same with the National events. You could watch the Blues 17's, then spin around and watch the Blues 16s. Or move from one age group to the other.

I suspect the DA's showcases will be the same. The issue will be if they schedule those events at the same time in different parts of the US

I agree with this statement. The second year will depend upon who puts out a better product and gives them more opportunities to fill their roster. I wouldn't bet on US soccer doing a great job. I also wouldn't be surprised if the financial impact of our Olympic flame out forced them to cut back their plans. Too many unknowns at this point. Glad mine doesn't have to go through this.

 

[NoGoal]

I agree with this statement. The second year will depend upon who puts out a better product and gives them more opportunities to fill their roster. I wouldn't bet on US soccer doing a great job. I also wouldn't be surprised if the financial impact of our Olympic flame out forced them to cut back their plans. Too many unknowns at this point. Glad mine doesn't have to go through this.

Olympic flame, US WNT Olympic flame out....was that a pun? lol

 

[BornToRun]

I pretty much agree with everything you said. The Surf/ Blues/ Slammers A team girls will put on a new DA patch and the B team will put on the ECNL patch. That won't change. But, that is only for the first year... or even first half of the first year.

I think the Dual roster and restrictive sub rules will be big factors that most aren't considering. In ECNL you could have a roster of 28 (which sucked, btw). But in that roster, you may have 2-3 injured, 2-3 visiting colleges and/ or National camps and 3-4 dual rostered players that were on the B team, but trained with the A team and played when needed. In any given game, depending on the opposition, You could have your 11, plus 4-5 getting field time. That leaves a few girls not rostered or playing that game. But, the dual rostered girls can still play with their B team, though. Then when the National Showcases came around, those same dual rostered or not rostered girls could/ would play a majority of the games. It isn't perfect, but the playtime/ college exposure was spread around a bit.

With the DA, you can only play for one team and there is only 3 subs per game (if I remember correctly). With that same roster size, that leaves 2-3 injured, 2-3 out visiting and 4-6 not playing that day. Then you have 4 girls rostered but not seeing the field each game. That is 8-10 girls trapped on a roster. How long will player #22 hang around? Some girls will suck it up and hang out until the end of the season, then tryout for the ECNL team the next season. But some girls will quit half way through the season and move clubs, just to be able to play.
For players 1-15 or so, everything will be fine. But for the bottom of the roster...

My daughter's friend plays for the U18 LA Galaxy DA team. He said they started the season with 26, but they finished the season with 16. The boys just wanted to play and most would rather play for their home club than to not play for a fully funded academy team. I don't know if that is typical or just specific to this team.

Either way, the DA will have an impact, but the question is will it have the same impact the following year? Who knows, maybe some of the top talent moves to both the DA and ECNL and you could have 2 strong national leagues?

I would expect the TOP talent will stay with DA as they will be the ones who play.

 

[madcow]

I would expect the TOP talent will stay with DA as they will be the ones who play.

That's why I said for 1-15 everything will be fine. The problem is when all that is left is 1-15. Then when you have injuries, visits and camps, you're short.

 

[MakeAPlay]

That's why I said for 1-15 everything will be fine. The problem is when all that is left is 1-15. Then when you have injuries, visits and camps, you're short.

That's also assuming 1-15 doesn't want to play high school and is not already in the YNT pool. A player that is already getting invited to camp and wants to play high school has exactly what incentive to leave an already good situation? They are going to miss games anyway due to YNT camps. Most of those players want to play in games and even though those 20 or so High school games are terrible they get hundreds of their friends and peers in the stand and weirdly the girls care about that stuff even if the quality of the soccer is low. I can tell you 100% that mine wouldn't have chosen ECNL if she had to quit high school. Not sure how the other players would choose but I know that it is going to be an issue.

 

[meatsweats]

That's why I said for 1-15 everything will be fine. The problem is when all that is left is 1-15. Then when you have injuries, visits and camps, you're short.

I agree, but I put that number at more like 1-18, now that you broke down the numbers like you did. See, because of those injuries and visits, etc., there are always a few missing. So 15-18 could see substantial enough time to warrant them staying on. And then I give 2 or so kids (parents really), that stay even if they don't play. Just for the fact it's DA status. We all know those types.

Assuming said club is a DA and ECNL status club, this still leaves ECNL teams left in the respective age groups. Except, now their strongest players are in DA. Therefore, those ECNL teams are now pulling from B or C teams to complete their 20 man roster. Even in the top clubs, there just aren't enough "top" players to fill rosters for 3 DA teams and 6 ECNL. That would be something like 200 so called "elite" level players at one club (ages 12-18). NO WAY!!!! College coaches will go straight to DA and maybe visit ECNL championships or larger showcases. But I wouldn't see them doing all they do now. It's just too much!

At the moment, the one carrot that ECNL can keep dangling....high school soccer. As some have said, it's going to be an issue for DA.

 

[NoGoal]

I agree, but I put that number at more like 1-18, now that you broke down the numbers like you did. See, because of those injuries and visits, etc., there are always a few missing. So 15-18 could see substantial enough time to warrant them staying on. And then I give 2 or so kids (parents really), that stay even if they don't play. Just for the fact it's DA status. We all know those types.

Assuming said club is a DA and ECNL status club, this still leaves ECNL teams left in the respective age groups. Except, now their strongest players are in DA. Therefore, those ECNL teams are now pulling from B or C teams to complete their 20 man roster. Even in the top clubs, there just aren't enough "top" players to fill rosters for 3 DA teams and 6 ECNL. That would be something like 200 so called "elite" level players at one club (ages 12-18). NO WAY!!!! College coaches will go straight to DA and maybe visit ECNL championships or larger showcases. But I wouldn't see them doing all they do now. It's just too much!

At the moment, the one carrot that ECNL can keep dangling....high school soccer. As some have said, it's going to be an issue for DA.

The clubs with DA and ECNL status could pull players from the B team to fill the remaining ECNL roster, but they will also pull players from the DA only clubs. Players #11-18 per age group, who did NOT make the DA dual age team will try to get on another other DA team and if that doesn't pan out an ECNL team.

I agree with Madcow that ECNL works having an expanded roster to pull players from the B team if a player is injured, going to unoffical visits, or YNT camps/games. It works, because ECNL follows the college substitution rules (getting more players in a game). I don't know the DA rules regarding pulling players up mid season, but this is where a club with DA and ECNL has a HUGE advantage. If the DA team has a string of injuries and are allowed to add playrs mid-year. They can call up an ECNL player.

 

[Eusebio]

So my question is, do we have a deep enough talent pool to support both DA and ECNL at respectable levels?

IF ECNL is primarily pulling from "B" teams is there enough talent to field competitive teams at ECNL showcases? One thing I've noticed on the boys side this season, with the expanding of the DA clubs/age groups (new u12 clubs, separate u13, u14 age groups, etc), there has been a HUGE drop-off in the talent pool in the "Flight 1" club teams, particularly at the big clubs. So far this season in those age groups, the "B" teams at major clubs are struggling tremendously against non-DA clubs. And this is in the age groups (u12 - u14) where player participation is still pretty high, yet there is already a huge drop-off in talent outside of the DA teams. There a few non-DA teams (Boca Juniors, CDA Slammers, etc) that could be competitive against some DA teams, but on the whole the pool is so thin that the big clubs struggle to put together competitive "B" teams.

The other half of why the big DA clubs can't field strong "B" teams is that frankly they don't care about the secondary teams. I believe in the B2003 topic we talked about how LAUFA was one of the very few DA clubs that actually had a proper Reserve team. Their Reserve team regularly scrimmages the DA team and share resources and coaching. But they are the exception. The vast majority of DA clubs, keep their best resources, fields, and coaching just for the Academy teams and rarely interact with the "B" teams at the club and there's very little to non-existent player movement to and fro.

How is this relevant to ECNL? Because these same clubs have shown they can only focus on one "elite" program at a time and cater to one elite group. If DA is their flagship program, then that's where they will pour all their resources and recruitment into. I'm sure DA and ECNL can co-exist, but ECNL will not be DA's little brother. Instead it will likely be its 3rd cousin twice removed on its step-mother's side. I understand the argument about some players wanting to play high-school and get more playing time. But as others have said, this is usually player's #19-24 on a roster. Is this really enough to form another 18-23 player roster with adequate talent? Perhaps if the big clubs pushed hard to create and support strong B teams, they could better retain the left-over talent from their Elite team. But it hasn't been the case so far and often times the Elite "left-over" talent gets wise to not pay big bucks to play on a poorly resourced B team and opt to play on a less expensive but quality local club.

People here are saying clubs with both DA and ECNL are the best options, but that's why I think it's just the opposite. If your child wants to go the ECNL track, you're probably better off finding an ECNL-only club. At least those clubs will be pouring their top resources (fields, coaches, equipment, fundraising, recruitment, and etc) into their ECNL program and it'll likely be worth your money. But the question is, how many ECNL-only clubs will there be in SoCal (are there any?)? This is where the restrictive membership of ECNL over the years is going to bite them in the @ass. If they had gotten a few more clubs involved, there would probably be some smaller ECNL clubs who couldn't afford to also offer a DA program and they would stay ECNL-only. I'm guessing over the next year ECNL will be in a mad dash to sign new clubs who they had repeatedly rejected over the years.

 

[NoGoal]

So my question is, do we have a deep enough talent pool to support both DA and ECNL at respectable levels?

IF ECNL is primarily pulling from "B" teams is there enough talent to field competitive teams at ECNL showcases? One thing I've noticed on the boys side this season, with the expanding of the DA clubs/age groups (new u12 clubs, separate u13, u14 age groups, etc), there has been a HUGE drop-off in the talent pool in the "Flight 1" club teams, particularly at the big clubs. So far this season in those age groups, the "B" teams at major clubs are struggling tremendously against non-DA clubs. And this is in the age groups (u12 - u14) where player participation is still pretty high, yet there is already a huge drop-off in talent outside of the DA teams. There a few non-DA teams (Boca Juniors, CDA Slammers, etc) that could be competitive against some DA teams, but on the whole the pool is so thin that the big clubs struggle to put together competitive "B" teams.

The other half of why the big DA clubs can't field strong "B" teams is that frankly they don't care about the secondary teams. I believe in the B2003 topic we talked about how LAUFA was one of the very few DA clubs that actually had a proper Reserve team. Their Reserve team regularly scrimmages the DA team and share resources and coaching. But they are the exception. The vast majority of DA clubs, keep their best resources, fields, and coaching just for the Academy teams and rarely interact with the "B" teams at the club and there's very little to non-existent player movement to and fro.

How is this relevant to ECNL? Because these same clubs have shown they can only focus on one "elite" program at a time and cater to one elite group. If DA is their flagship program, then that's where they will pour all their resources and recruitment into. I'm sure DA and ECNL can co-exist, but ECNL will not be DA's little brother. Instead it will likely be its 3rd cousin twice removed on its step-mother's side. I understand the argument about some players wanting to play high-school and get more playing time. But as others have said, this is usually player's #19-24 on a roster. Is this really enough to form another 18-23 player roster with adequate talent? Perhaps if the big clubs pushed hard to create and support strong B teams, they could better retain the left-over talent from their Elite team. But it hasn't been the case so far and often times the Elite "left-over" talent gets wise to not pay big bucks to play on a poorly resourced B team and opt to play on a less expensive but quality local club.

People here are saying clubs with both DA and ECNL are the best options, but that's why I think it's just the opposite. If your child wants to go the ECNL track, you're probably better off finding an ECNL-only club. At least those clubs will be pouring their top resources (fields, coaches, equipment, fundraising, recruitment, and etc) into their ECNL program and it'll likely be worth your money. But the question is, how many ECNL-only clubs will there be in SoCal (are there any?)? This is where the restrictive membership of ECNL over the years is going to bite them in the @ass. If they had gotten a few more clubs involved, there would probably be some smaller ECNL clubs who couldn't afford to also offer a DA program and they would stay ECNL-only. I'm guessing over the next year ECNL will be in a mad dash to sign new clubs who they had repeatedly rejected over the years.

Biggest difference between the boys pool vs the girls pool. As boys hit HS age, you will see a higher attrition rate among the boys. They will leave soccer for football, baseball, etc, thus lower opportunities to field stronger B teams. This is exactly what happened to my sons team several years back when U14/15 hit.

IMO, girls soccer is the equivalent of boys football. If a female is athletic they usually end up or remain playing soccer during HS age.

Surf college cup in November is a perfect example.
http://events.gotsport.com/events/Default.aspx?eventid=46881