5 biological men roster wins Australian women's soccer league title & also undefeated this season

[crush]

Yes.

I don't think Slobo is a Tranny but you never know. My old Elder's son does Drag Queen shows and gets paid per show. He is gay and loves being his true self. My Elder pal had to resign his position because the church they all went to, would not allow that behavior in the open and be a member. I was called all the names when I played basketball and baseball at Laguna in early 80s. They didn't call us the little San Francisco for nothing. Tranny or MTF was not even one of the letters back then. In fact, my gay friends didn't like the deception with the pull out of the Mamba after making out. That would scare the other person because they weren't prepared for the big surprise. I was called queer, homo, fag, gay but not tranny.

 

[dad4]

Yes I do. It's the same two objections as to watfly:

1. You still have the problem of the boxers. There are some individuals even with a chromosome test you would find objectionable and not all chromosomes are xx and xy....small problem but one you'll need to address which doesn't make it simple.
2. "Ban from competition" is ridiculous. If women were forced to play in the same league as men they would not be "banned from competition". What would be the effect? There wouldn't be many women playing competitively because all the slots would go to the men. So why do even have a women's league if women's sports are worse than men's sports (at least from a spectating perspective)? Participation.
3. The reality is the MTF, because estrogen and testosterone blockers are performance suppressants and they lose their natural testosterone after surgery, is they also cannot compete with the men. It's the same concern if you believe women are entitled to a league for participatory reason. So it's up to you to set up separate but equal situations where they can in fact participate (which is not the men's league) and to fund it from money taken from both the men and women.

I've provided a clear standard which answers your question. A cheek swab would tell us that both boxers have a Y chromosome, which means they would be eligible for the men's leagues.

You have not answered my question. Supposing someone manages to jump through all your hoops. Who is allowed to play in the women's league?

 

[Grace T.]

I've provided a clear standard which answers your question. A cheek swab would tell us that both boxers have a Y chromosome, which means they would be eligible for the men's leagues.

You have not answered my question. Supposing someone manages to jump through all your hoops. Who is allowed to play in the women's league?

There is no evidence that they in fact had a Y chromosome. It’s speculation. We do know they had some condition. There are other conditions that can produce male puberty or high testosterone including xx women with certain rare hormone conditions. Plus we’ve been through this once before: your rule isn’t as simple as you’d like either because the ftm could compete with the women which is a result you didn’t like either. Your answer has always been throw everyone else (ftm mtf intersex) into the m pool which is not acceptable due to the question Watfly can’t answer.

Yes I did several times. Again reading comprehension. My test for who can play in the women’s league is anyone who has not gone through male puberty plus those permitted by the questions.

 

[watfly]

I've provided a clear standard which answers your question. A cheek swab would tell us that both boxers have a Y chromosome, which means they would be eligible for the men's leagues.

You have not answered my question. Supposing someone manages to jump through all your hoops. Who is allowed to play in the women's league?

Apparently, she believes that there are other chromosome combinations than xx and xy which would be news to the scientific world. Or that's at least her implication since she doesn't believe xx and xy is a binary equation. Are there individuals that have some form of intersex/DSD conditions? Yes, they represent 0.016% of the population. There are individuals that have all sort of genetic shortcomings that prevents them from competing at a high level of athletics that represent a significantly higher percentage than those with intersex/DSD conditions.

In reality, an xx and xy standard is far more inclusive than any other standard. There are xx athletes like Caster Semenya that can't compete as a woman because they fail the testosterone test. What are the odds that Brittany Griner would have very elevated levels of testosterone? Reality, not philosophy, is the most reliable standard for athletic competition.

 

[Grace T.]

Apparently, she believes that there are other chromosome combinations than xx and xy which would be news to the scientific world. Are there individuals that have some form of intersex/DSD conditions? Yes, they represent 0.016% of the population. There are individuals that have all sort of genetic shortcomings that prevents them from competing at a high level of athletics that represent a significantly higher percentage than those with intersex/DSD conditions.

In reality, an xx and xy standard is far more inclusive than any other standard. There are xx athletes like Caster Semenya that can't compete as a woman because they fail the testosterone test. What are the odds that Brittany Griner would have very elevated levels of testosterone? Reality, not philosophy, is the most reliable standard for athletic competition.

There are. Look it up. There are as you say xx athletes that can’t compete because of testosterone or that are on testosterone suppressants. To my knowledge there hasn’t been a comprehensive study done among female claiming athletes but my guess is the incidence runs higher than the general pop. I agree however even among athletes it is a small problem. But you’ll still have to deal with it. You can’t just ignore it. That why after all we have a court system in society to deal with civil (not just criminal) matters…most of the time things chug along fine but every once in a while you have to deal with these problems…and it’s those little problems that make law. Now we’re not just into philosophy but the theory of jurisprudence: rules will always be pushed by and have to account for the hard cases. Indeed law school education is made up of only such hard Cases

 

[Grace T.]

There are. Look it up. There are as you say xx athletes that can’t compete because of testosterone or that are on testosterone suppressants. To my knowledge there hasn’t been a comprehensive study done among female claiming athletes but my guess is the incidence runs higher than the general pop. I agree however even among athletes it is a small problem. But you’ll still have to deal with it. You can’t just ignore it. That why after all we have a court system in society to deal with civil (not just criminal) matters…most of the time things chug along fine but every once in a while you have to deal with these problems…and it’s those little problems that make law. Now we’re not just into philosophy but the theory of jurisprudence: rules will always be pushed by and have to account for the hard cases. Indeed law school education is made up of only such hard Cases

Ps are you saying that an xx woman with a hormone condition that produces high t should be allowed to compete in the womens division without suppressants? If so why? What’s the rationale?

 

[Noticer]

this forum gets gheyer and gheyer by the day

 

[focomoso]

this forum gets gheyer and gheyer by the day

When your kids become soccer parents, or maybe their kids, if this site is still up, they'll look back at these conversations with horror. "How could otherwise nice people be so dismissive of the struggles of a margenalized group?" It's like my grandparents' racism or my my dad's "light homophobia".

Times change. On aggregate, society has been moving toward being more tolerant and accepting of the gray areas. This can only be good.

 

[Noticer]

When your kids become soccer parents, or maybe their kids, if this site is still up, they'll look back at these conversations with horror. "How could otherwise nice people be so dismissive of the struggles of a margenalized group?" It's like my grandparents' racism or my my dad's "light homophobia".

Times change. On aggregate, society has been moving toward being more tolerant and accepting of the gray areas. This can only be good.

Why would you assume my comment was negative? It's fantastic that, not only this forum, but society on aggregate is becoming gheyer and gheyer. Our children are going to look back on these conversations with horror. "How could @focomoso be so presumptuous, close minded and backwards?" You are not an ally. You are an enemy to everything our great nation and this forum stands for. Be better.

 

[watfly]

There are. Look it up. There are as you say xx athletes that can’t compete because of testosterone or that are on testosterone suppressants. To my knowledge there hasn’t been a comprehensive study done among female claiming athletes but my guess is the incidence runs higher than the general pop. I agree however even among athletes it is a small problem. But you’ll still have to deal with it. You can’t just ignore it. That why after all we have a court system in society to deal with civil (not just criminal) matters…most of the time things chug along fine but every once in a while you have to deal with these problems…and it’s those little problems that make law. Now we’re not just into philosophy but the theory of jurisprudence: rules will always be pushed by and have to account for the hard cases. Indeed law school education is made up of only such hard Cases

Your trying to obfuscate the fact that there are only two chromosome options. Additionally, you're using apples and oranges comparisons when you bring in law and philosophy to sport. I can appreciate your breadth of knowledge, but it also leads you to widely overcomplicate issues and ignore relativity.

Ps are you saying that an xx woman with a hormone condition that produces high t should be allowed to compete in the womens division without suppressants? If so why? What’s the rationale?

Yes, 100%. I thought I made that clear in my post. Why? Because T standards are arbitrary and subjective. Who's to say what the appropriate level of T is? And why should a female athlete be forced to artificially change their biology to compete? You said it yourself about T:

To my knowledge there hasn’t been a comprehensive study done among female claiming athletes but my guess is the incidence runs higher than the general pop.

So how much T is too much T if the women in athletics have higher T than the general population? How much of an advantage is too much of an advantage? It's simply not something that can be determined.

Here is a bit of philosophy for you, why should we discriminate against a genetically masculinized (sp?) women that through no fault or choice of her own? While they may have an advantage in sport, they likely have disadvantages is other aspects of life.

Again you just can't pick and choose which of the hundreds of natural biological traits to exclude. How tall is too tall, how fast is too fast? Caster Semenya wasn't banned solely because she had too much T. She was banned because she was too fast. Too much T and slow, she doesn't get banned. An xx and xy test is binary, unequivocal and unambiguous.

 

[dad4]

When your kids become soccer parents, or maybe their kids, if this site is still up, they'll look back at these conversations with horror. "How could otherwise nice people be so dismissive of the struggles of a margenalized group?" It's like my grandparents' racism or my my dad's "light homophobia".

Times change. On aggregate, society has been moving toward being more tolerant and accepting of the gray areas. This can only be good.

If the trans lobby would be respectful of XX women having their own spaces, you would see far fewer people being dismissive of trans identity.

There is a need for athletic opportunities for trans people. But those opportunities need to be additive, not redistributive. You can’t just take opportunities away from women, hand them over to trans people, and expect everyone to agree.

 

[Surfer_dad]

No, it isn't, and it won't stop until real females demand that it does. Let them form a tranny league.

Why just females. We should all be both outraged and sane, demanding that men are men and women are women. We can't change reality. Men should be outraged at the disrespect being shown to girls and women.

 

[Grace T.]

Your trying to obfuscate the fact that there are only two chromosome options. Additionally, you're using apples and oranges comparisons when you bring in law and philosophy to sport. I can appreciate your breadth of knowledge, but it also leads you to widely overcomplicate issues and ignore relativity.

Yes, 100%. I thought I made that clear in my post. Why? Because T standards are arbitrary and subjective. Who's to say what the appropriate level of T is? And why should a female athlete be forced to artificially change their biology to compete? You said it yourself about T:

So how much T is too much T if the women in athletics have higher T than the general population? How much of an advantage is too much of an advantage? It's simply not something that can be determined.

Here is a bit of philosophy for you, why should we discriminate against a genetically masculinized (sp?) women that through no fault or choice of her own? While they may have an advantage in sport, they likely have disadvantages is other aspects of life.

Again you just can't pick and choose which of the hundreds of natural biological traits to exclude. How tall is too tall, how fast is too fast? Caster Semenya wasn't banned solely because she had too much T. She was banned because she was too fast. Too much T and slow, she doesn't get banned. An xx and xy test is binary, unequivocal and unambiguous.

It’s a fair argument. You’d still have to account for the chromosomes other than xx and xy but it’s relatively simple to lean into it. I note you are double downing on the Rawls objection, however, and you are moving away from athletics as something made through merit and hard work to accident of birth. My objection is that sports then loses meaning if it’s not about something…some events like running or swim racing are then as interesting as a coin flip…the argument for not allowing peds or ftm to compete in the womens category is also undermined since again we are talking accidents of birth

My other question remains: why then not just dump everyone into the human category…everyone in the pool…may the best athlete win.

 

[Grace T.]

If the trans lobby would be respectful of XX women having their own spaces, you would see far fewer people being dismissive of trans identity.

There is a need for athletic opportunities for trans people. But those opportunities need to be additive, not redistributive. You can’t just take opportunities away from women, hand them over to trans people, and expect everyone to agree.

They will always be redistributive even if you add a new category because money is finite and resources are scarce. It has to come from some place.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

If the trans lobby would be respectful of XX women having their own spaces, you would see far fewer people being dismissive of trans identity.

If the ******* lobby would be respectful of ******** people having their own spaces (like **********), you would see far fewer people being dismissive of ******* identity.

Play madlibs with this with whichever sets of descriptors might fit, make sure one of them is "water fountains". Makes for a good thought experiment.

 

[watfly]

It’s a fair argument. You’d still have to account for the chromosomes other than xx and xy but it’s relatively simple to lean into it. I note you are double downing on the Rawls objection, however, and you are moving away from athletics as something made through merit and hard work to accident of birth. My objection is that sports then loses meaning if it’s not about something…some events like running or swim racing are then as interesting as a coin flip…the argument for not allowing peds or ftm to compete in the womens category is also undermined since again we are talking accidents of birth

My other question remains: why then not just dump everyone into the human category…everyone in the pool…may the best athlete win.

It takes both genetics and merit/hard work , they're not mutually exclusive. Some can compensate for their lack of genetics through hard work. Some will have an easier road to success because of their genetics. Genetics are akin to potential. Genetics may give you a higher ceiling for success, but without the effort you won't reach that ceiling.

Side note: Luck can play a large role in the above.

 

[dad4]

If the ******* lobby would be respectful of ******** people having their own spaces (like **********), you would see far fewer people being dismissive of ******* identity.

Play madlibs with this with whichever sets of descriptors might fit, make sure one of them is "water fountains". Makes for a good thought experiment.

This is more like a bunch of white guys insisting they get to give the sermon at the local AME church.

 

[Grace T.]

It takes both genetics and merit/hard work , they're not mutually exclusive. Some can compensate for their lack of genetics through hard work. Some will have an easier road to success because of their genetics. Genetics are akin to potential. Genetics may give you a higher ceiling for success, but without the effort you won't reach that ceiling.

Side note: Luck can play a large role in the above.

Like it

I note the Rawlsian second level objection is that even “hard work” has a genetic component. As a classical liberal myself, I’ve never been able to answer that objection to my own satisfaction

I further note however few are willing to admit the role luck plays so I give you kudos for being so forthright and a good faith player. It undermines the notion that there is virtue to sports. That athletics is about merit.

As illustration the pga case is commonly used in philosophy and jurisprudence courses. The question went to scotus over whether the pga should be forced to provide a golfer with walking disabilities a golf cart. The pga argued part of the game of golf is walking and carrying your clubs. The golfer argued no golf is about wacking the ball (which the pga took exception to because it weakened the case golf is even a sport). So scotus was forced to weigh in on what is the nature, or telos, of golf.

Here the difference is we have different ideas on what is sports. Most people are either hard core merit or hard core luck. Your position is much more nuanced which is fascinating.

 

[espola]

Pardon me, Fudd. I prefer "senora sans minora".

Is that in English, Spanish, French, or Latin?

 

[whatithink]

It takes both genetics and merit/hard work , they're not mutually exclusive. Some can compensate for their lack of genetics through hard work. Some will have an easier road to success because of their genetics. Genetics are akin to potential. Genetics may give you a higher ceiling for success, but without the effort you won't reach that ceiling.

Side note: Luck can play a large role in the above.

And money, lots & lots of it ... that can play a huge part in advancement and as a barrier to entry.