5 biological men roster wins Australian women's soccer league title & also undefeated this season

[Veritas]

It's more than just social. Environment too as seen in the behavior of certain species such as clownfish, hyenas, reptiles and certain cranes.

There also, however, seems to be a genetic component as the alpha is not the one engaging in the behavior, and it seems to be keyed to testosterone levels (which in turn is influenced by genetic, social and environmental factors)

Again it's the B which is tricky. The Gs (which do exist in the ape world as well) seem much more rigid and just constitute a much more generally lower %.

Grace, you’ve got a point that environment and biology can team up to influence behavior after all, clownfish change gender when the head honcho dies, and hyenas are just weirdly wired from the get go. But here’s the thing Grace... these changes aren’t because the fish or the hyenas woke up one day and decided to mix things up. It’s all about survival. The clownfish swaps roles to keep the family business running smoothly, and hyenas? Well, they’re just built different, but it’s still about who gets to pass on the genes.

Now, testosterone? Yeah, that guy definitely influences behavior. It’s like the "juice" that makes alpha males strut around as king of the hill. The alphas are all about mating and passing on those sweet genes, so they don’t mess around with other behaviors. But when you look at the lower-ranking dudes, who aren’t getting the same action, sometimes they experiment a bit. But is that genetics or just being stuck in a social pickle?

And about stress or environment causing genetic mutations. It’s true that stress can push behavior to shift for survival, but that doesn’t mean it’s rewriting the genetic code to create a permanent change in sexual behavior. Think about prisoners, when they’re locked up, sometimes they make do with what’s available. But once they’re out, most go back to their previous patterns. If it were a genetic mutation, that behavior wouldn’t switch back so easily. Genetic mutations tend to take much longer than just one generation by the way... hence Gen Z

So, while environment, testosterone, and social situations can stir the pot, we’re not talking about a full on genetic overhaul. More like temporary adaptations to deal with the circumstances. When the circumstances change, so does the behavior. No genetic rewiring necessary, just some good old situational problem solving. In essence it's just Nature at work

I did not know that about you. Fact or a weirdo's imagination. Are some Apes Homo Apes?

What I'm trying to say here that Grace is referring to genetic mutations as the cause but I say not so fast...

 

[Grace T.]

Grace, you’ve got a point that environment and biology can team up to influence behavior after all, clownfish change gender when the head honcho dies, and hyenas are just weirdly wired from the get go. But here’s the thing Grace... these changes aren’t because the fish or the hyenas woke up one day and decided to mix things up. It’s all about survival. The clownfish swaps roles to keep the family business running smoothly, and hyenas? Well, they’re just built different, but it’s still about who gets to pass on the genes.

Now, testosterone? Yeah, that guy definitely influences behavior. It’s like the "juice" that makes alpha males strut around as king of the hill. The alphas are all about mating and passing on those sweet genes, so they don’t mess around with other behaviors. But when you look at the lower-ranking dudes, who aren’t getting the same action, sometimes they experiment a bit. But is that genetics or just being stuck in a social pickle?

And about stress or environment causing genetic mutations. It’s true that stress can push behavior to shift for survival, but that doesn’t mean it’s rewriting the genetic code to create a permanent change in sexual behavior. Think about prisoners, when they’re locked up, sometimes they make do with what’s available. But once they’re out, most go back to their previous patterns. If it were a genetic mutation, that behavior wouldn’t switch back so easily. Genetic mutations tend to take much longer than just one generation by the way... hence Gen Z

So, while environment, testosterone, and social situations can stir the pot, we’re not talking about a full on genetic overhaul. More like temporary adaptations to deal with the circumstances. When the circumstances change, so does the behavior. No genetic rewiring necessary, just some good old situational problem solving. In essence it's just Nature at work

What I'm trying to say here that Grace is referring to genetic mutations as the cause but I say not so fast...

We actually aren’t that far apart. My main point is it’s not happening in the high t alphas because of genetics. They are alphas for a reason.

So I’m curious now (not a gotcha) what do you ascribe the rise of so many low t beta males and incels to? I don’t have a theory. I’m scratching my head.

 

[dad4]

Guess I owe you a bit of an apology there. I didn't know your underlying assumption was that MTF athletes would be welcomed on the boys team. I think that's fundamentally the difference in our positions. I'm not so naive to think so. There have been documented cases (in the study I posted) where nonbinaries and trans individuals have been harassed in their respective biological bathroom. My kid got into a fistfight when he was called "a sissy" by his roommates at an international for wanting to go to bed at a decent hour before his trial...if he were to be wearing a dress in the men's room I don't see those teammates being welcoming I see black and hispanic kids being called the n word at the fields. And then there are people like Slobi using slurs, threatening violence and threatening to target trans kids, so forgive me, but no I don't think that will go well. It won't work unless you are prepared to restrict free speech by silencing people like Slobi through punishments for what they say (and I'm not).

Not sure where you get the idea that people would be more welcoming if we just had more Lia Thomases.

If you want a welcoming environment, you start by respecting other people’s boundaries. Two of those boundaries are XX sports teams and XX bathrooms.

 

[Grace T.]

Not sure where you get the idea that people would be more welcoming if we just had more Lia Thomases.

If you want a welcoming environment, you start by respecting other people’s boundaries. Two of those boundaries are XX sports teams and XX bathrooms.

Again that's where we differ (though now I have a little better sense of why). The ptsd dog hater and the blind guy with the service dog are just in an irrevocable conflict. There's nothing the blind guy can do to make the ptsd dog hater feel better about it (in the case the dog was perfectly well behaved and was laying at his feet). Likewise, given the Slobi led off this discussion with a slur, I don't think anything changes his opinion. Like I said....my son got called a "sissie" and had a fist fight with his teammates over wanting to go to bed at midnight (plus the preceding arguments over who's fault a goal was)....there's no reasoning for some people, which means it's an idealistic utopia to assume the trans MTF youth is going to be safe in the boys bathroom. Given I care about ALL the youth, that means fixing the problem with private facilities options if you want to segregate them. A genetic test doesn't make sense for the bathroom BTW....you'll have post surgical trans MTF without a wang in the men's room and you'll have post surgical FTM with a wang the precious DD can see in the womens bathroom...best rule is penis/no penis with mandated separate facilities for those undergoing issues, where feasible (which includes all schools).

 

[Veritas]

We actually aren’t that far apart. My main point is it’s not happening in the high t alphas because of genetics. They are alphas for a reason.

So I’m curious now (not a gotcha) what do you ascribe the rise of so many low t beta males and incels to? I don’t have a theory. I’m scratching my head.

Ohh Grace, we’re totally syncing up here! You nailed it high T alphas are running the show for a reason. They’re built for dominance, leadership, and keeping things moving. They’re not out there debating whether to flex their genetic muscle they just do it, no questions asked.

But let’s get into this beta/incel mystery, because it’s like we’ve got a whole new species of low T guys wandering around wondering what happened. Here’s my theory: we’ve swapped spears and hunting grounds for screens and scrolls. Guys aren’t out there battling for resources they’re battling Wi-Fi dropouts. Toss in processed food, lack of movement, and too much time spent sitting in front of screens and you’ve got testosterone levels taking a nosedive 100%

Oh yeah, let’s not forget internet porn smh because that’s playing a huge role too. Instead of actually going out there and pursuing relationships, a lot of these guys are just sitting back, letting their screens do all the work. Why bother putting in effort when everything’s right at your fingertips, no stakes involved? It’s like nature’s biggest cheat code, but the cost is that it’s zapping their drive, confidence, and even their testosterone.

And then, society’s giving out mixed signals. Traditional male roles? Pretty much out the window. We’ve gone from “be the alpha” to “just vibe and see what happens” and some guys took that a little too literally... I bet. Now they’re in a feedback loop of low effort, low reward, and low self-esteem. Add in unrealistic Instagram comparisons and Reddit echo chambers, and you’ve got a perfect storm for beta males and incels to thrive & pop out like popcorn.

But here’s the thing...this isn’t some genetic shift we’re stuck with forever. It’s just modern life throwing a curveball. Testosterone can bounce back. Guys just need to step away from the screens, hit the gym, maybe lay off the fast food and porn for a bit, and start getting back in touch with their inner alpha right?. It’s a lifestyle slump, not a permanent mutation...

So yeah, the rise of low T betas and incels? Blame it on too much Netflix, porn, and not enough deadlifts. We’re adapting to a digital world, but not always in the best way. That's my best guess...

 

[Grace T.]

Again that's where we differ (though now I have a little better sense of why). The ptsd dog hater and the blind guy with the service dog are just in an irrevocable conflict. There's nothing the blind guy can do to make the ptsd dog hater feel better about it (in the case the dog was perfectly well behaved and was laying at his feet). Likewise, given the Slobi led off this discussion with a slur, I don't think anything changes his opinion. Like I said....my son got called a "sissie" and had a fist fight with his teammates over wanting to go to bed at midnight (plus the preceding arguments over who's fault a goal was)....there's no reasoning for some people, which means it's an idealistic utopia to assume the trans MTF youth is going to be safe in the boys bathroom. Given I care about ALL the youth, that means fixing the problem with private facilities options if you want to segregate them. A genetic test doesn't make sense for the bathroom BTW....you'll have post surgical trans MTF without a wang in the men's room and you'll have post surgical FTM with a wang the precious DD can see in the womens bathroom...best rule is penis/no penis with mandated separate facilities for those undergoing issues, where feasible (which includes all schools).

p.s. speaking as a woman, I personally would feel much safer (and if I have my nieces much safer) with a trans MTF individual with no wang than a FTM individual with a wang.

Ohh Grace, we’re totally syncing up here! You nailed it high T alphas are running the show for a reason. They’re built for dominance, leadership, and keeping things moving. They’re not out there debating whether to flex their genetic muscle they just do it, no questions asked.

But let’s get into this beta/incel mystery, because it’s like we’ve got a whole new species of low T guys wandering around wondering what happened. Here’s my theory: we’ve swapped spears and hunting grounds for screens and scrolls. Guys aren’t out there battling for resources they’re battling Wi-Fi dropouts. Toss in processed food, lack of movement, and too much time spent sitting in front of screens and you’ve got testosterone levels taking a nosedive 100%

Oh yeah, let’s not forget internet porn smh because that’s playing a huge role too. Instead of actually going out there and pursuing relationships, a lot of these guys are just sitting back, letting their screens do all the work. Why bother putting in effort when everything’s right at your fingertips, no stakes involved? It’s like nature’s biggest cheat code, but the cost is that it’s zapping their drive, confidence, and even their testosterone.

And then, society’s giving out mixed signals. Traditional male roles? Pretty much out the window. We’ve gone from “be the alpha” to “just vibe and see what happens” and some guys took that a little too literally... I bet. Now they’re in a feedback loop of low effort, low reward, and low self-esteem. Add in unrealistic Instagram comparisons and Reddit echo chambers, and you’ve got a perfect storm for beta males and incels to thrive & pop out like popcorn.

But here’s the thing...this isn’t some genetic shift we’re stuck with forever. It’s just modern life throwing a curveball. Testosterone can bounce back. Guys just need to step away from the screens, hit the gym, maybe lay off the fast food and porn for a bit, and start getting back in touch with their inner alpha right?. It’s a lifestyle slump, not a permanent mutation...

So yeah, the rise of low T betas and incels? Blame it on too much Netflix, porn, and not enough deadlifts. We’re adapting to a digital world, but not always in the best way. That's my best guess...

I hadn't thought of porn...you would think exposure would raise the t level....but it's an interesting theory and worth somebody to give a lookskie. Fascinating....if there's low reward I think you found your reason why the rise in people claiming LGBT status (likewise for women why not nonbinary if there is no reward on the other side)....not some change in philosophy...why bother with the annoyances of Mars/Venus if you are unlikely to be rewarded (see the crazy/hot scale). Interesting. I'll be on the lookout as this develops, see if you are right but you may be onto something.

 

[watfly]

1. There’s a sexual component to it. It would be like doing a “stripper time story hour” but the stripper is just doing g rated stuff. Why do you need the stripper…just


read the goddamn story
2. Yes I get drag is a thing which has been important in gay culture. Drag artists are not necessarily trans individuals. They tend to be gay men in drag (though some are trans and just pre decision).
3. I’ve never really been comfortable though with drag for drags sake. It’s kinda like blackface…a not so flattering caricature of women.
4. That said you wanna do drag go ahead. But I get the discomfort because of 1 with it around kids. Even more disturbing is the drag show (and strip shows like pole dancing) for kids since the dances overt have a sexual component

Drag queens aren't my first choice for story hour. However, saying it has a sexual component to it, is not much different than Sloboban saying a man in the dress in womans restroom is a sexual thing, or I don't want a gay man around my kids because their is a sexual component. A stripper and a drag queen are apples and oranges. Stripper is sex, drag is entertainment. Can drag be sexual? Absolutely. Is it inherently sexual? Only to the simple-minded that are uncomfortable with men wearing women's cloths.

Webster's definition of Drag Queen: a person and especially a man who performs as an entertainer in usually female drag

 

[Grace T.]

Drag queens aren't my first choice for story hour. However, saying it has a sexual component to it, is not much different than Sloboban saying a man in the dress in womans restroom is a sexual thing, or I don't want a gay man around my kids because their is a sexual component. A stripper and a drag queen are apples and oranges. Stripper is sex, drag is entertainment. Can drag be sexual? Absolutely. Is it inherently sexual? Only to the simple-minded that are uncomfortable with men wearing women's cloths.

Webster's definition of Drag Queen: a person and especially a man who performs as an entertainer in usually female drag

When was the last time you saw a drag performance? Honest question. It’s not the birdcage anymore. The great Starina would be considered passe these days, though you’ll recall Starinas main number was her conjuring up a muscle bounded shirtless men’s who becomes her fantasy and then she becomes her creations fantasy. Drag shows these days have tilted more towards the risqué than the burlesque because of audience taste trying to push boundaries.

 

[pewpew]

Do Apes have MTFs?

Do they use pronouns?

Here's a whole other topic I really can't wrap my head around.
It used to be you were either male or female and gay or straight. And that's about it.

There was none of this he/him/she/her/they/them etc etc
None of this pan-sexual among other fill-in-the-blank-sexual types.
"Cis" and a whole bunch of other crap that's been created in the last decade.
So much crap I can't keep up with it. Nor do I feel the need to. Not going to participate in that BS game.

A few years ago when one of my kids started HS they asked him what his pronouns are?

"Huh?"

"Your pronouns?"

"What's that?" (He honestly didn't know how to answer thankfully.)

"What do you like to be referred to as?"

"Well my name is ____ and I'm a boy, I'm not sure what you want me to say."

They walked away kinda huffing and puffing my wife said. Probably a good thing she took him to orientation and not me.

 

[pewpew]

When was the last time you saw a drag performance? Honest question. Drag shows these days have tilted more towards the risqué than the burlesque because of audience taste trying to push boundaries.

Never. No plans to either. It's just not my thing. But these people are choosing to attend these. 1st-graders don't get to choose who reads to them because these Groomers are also pushing boundaries.

 

[pewpew]

the operative word there is "welcome".

When was the last time you saw a biological boy not welcomed onto a boys team?!
Yes there's that initial ice to break between the new kid and the team. But beyond that?
Again..you are trying to force a square peg into a round hole to fit your agenda.

 

[pewpew]

I came into this discussion about biological men beating on biological women in soccer and instead got
science and history lessons.

 

[watfly]

When was the last time you saw a drag performance? Honest question. It’s not the birdcage anymore. The great Starina would be considered passe these days, though you’ll recall Starinas main number was her conjuring up a muscle bounded shirtless men’s who becomes her fantasy and then she becomes her creations fantasy. Drag shows these days have tilted more towards the risqué than the burlesque because of audience taste trying to push boundaries.

Did the change correspond to the gays taking over drag from Milton and Flip?

You think of drag in the pejorative. As long as its age appropriate, I wouldn't lose any sleep over drag queens doing story hour.

 

[Grace T.]

When was the last time you saw a biological boy not welcomed onto a boys team?!
Yes there's that initial ice to break between the new kid and the team. But beyond that?
Again..you are trying to force a square peg into a round hole to fit your agenda.

When was the last time you saw a biological boy not welcomed onto a boys team?!
Yes there's that initial ice to break between the new kid and the team. But beyond that?
Again..you are trying to force a square peg into a round hole to fit your agenda.

Errrr. My kid got hounded off a team a few years back. Emotionally tortured. So did an African American friend of his on a largely Latino team. Then there was this girl on the coed Latino league team. And I wrote about the international squad. Come on you know better than that having seen the complaints on the gk forum.

 

[watfly]

Do they use pronouns?

Here's a whole other topic I really can't wrap my head around.
It used to be you were either male or female and gay or straight. And that's about it.

There was none of this he/him/she/her/they/them etc etc
None of this pan-sexual among other fill-in-the-blank-sexual types.
"Cis" and a whole bunch of other crap that's been created in the last decade.
So much crap I can't keep up with it. Nor do I feel the need to. Not going to participate in that BS game.

A few years ago when one of my kids started HS they asked him what his pronouns are?

"Huh?"

"Your pronouns?"

"What's that?" (He honestly didn't know how to answer thankfully.)

"What do you like to be referred to as?"

"Well my name is ____ and I'm a boy, I'm not sure what you want me to say."

They walked away kinda huffing and puffing my wife said. Probably a good thing she took him to orientation and not me.

U-M Student Changes Personal Pronoun To 'His Majesty' In Wake Of New University Policy

Earlier this week, University of Michigan officials announced students can now designate a personal pronoun that will be reflected on class rosters.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Grace T.]

Did the change correspond to the gays taking over drag from Milton and Flip?

You think of drag in the pejorative. As long as its age appropriate, I wouldn't lose any sleep over drag queens doing story hour.

Ronald Reagan before that. Oh there was also the infamous Goodman Linda Tripp impression on snl

But that does get to the heart of my second objection. Like Linda Tripp it’s either to make fun of a woman overtly, or a caricature. In some respects it’s a little like the blackface minstrel shows. Also art. The jazz singer was revolutionary. But objected to since there was also an element of making fun of African Americans and stereotypes. I’m open to persuasion but I don’t really see why minstrel shows bad but drag performances (whether Linda Tripp impressions, the birdcage or the more risqué ones now) ok.

 

[Grace T.]

I came into this discussion about biological men beating on biological women in soccer and instead got
science and history lessons.

You forgot study accuracy protocols, drag shows, disability law, sheepdogs, the movie “airplane”, child abductions and (I’ll admit this one hurts you omitted) ethics and philosophy

“This is the bad place!”

 

[dad4]

Errrr. My kid got hounded off a team a few years back. Emotionally tortured. So did an African American friend of his on a largely Latino team. Then there was this girl on the coed Latino league team. And I wrote about the international squad. Come on you know better than that having seen the complaints on the gk forum.

You seem to run into a much meaner group of kids than I do.

We had a trans kid on a boys team I coached. They fit in just fine. Zero issues the whole season. Might be why I see boys teams as a reasonable solution, provided people are willing to help make things work.

Most of what you're describing has nothing to do with gender. If you tell teenagers to put away the video games and go to bed, you can expect some push back. Times ten if that if the person asking is also a kid. They'd get treated like a traitor.

But that's about video games and class loyalty, not gender politics.

 

[pewpew]

Errrr. My kid got hounded off a team a few years back. Emotionally tortured. So did an African American friend of his on a largely Latino team. Then there was this girl on the coed Latino league team. And I wrote about the international squad. Come on you know better than that having seen the complaints on the gk forum.

What did he get hounded for? You also wrote that he got into a fight over being called a "sissy" at a tournament. Your kid chose to throw down over being called that?! A bit more on all this would help. (C'mon..you love to talk/type)
I'll be honest in that I don't frequent the GK forum very often since my GK no longer plays.

 

[crush]

Never. No plans to either. It's just not my thing. But these people are choosing to attend these. 1st-graders don't get to choose who reads to them because these Groomers are also pushing boundaries.

They kicked Jesus out of the public schools and brought Coach Tim's Tampons to the boy's bathroom. Jesus would love to read to the kids again, but he has to be invited.

Story Time With Jesus

 

[crush]

What did he get hounded for? You also wrote that he got into a fight over being called a "sissy" at a tournament. Your kid chose to throw down over being called that?! A bit more on all this would help. (C'mon..you love to talk/type)
I'll be honest in that I don't frequent the GK forum very often since my GK no longer plays.

I played sports at Laguna Beach and let me just say we were called way worse than "sissy." We were called so many names. Today, if you call the wrong boy a "he" you will get corrected and shamed for being a homophobe. My only come back to the name callers was, "look at our view suckers and I'm going surfing after this." No one fought over being called names. Beta males are losing control big time.