Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

dad4 said:
For ECNL?

Simple. A mtf athlete has an unfair advantage over a biological girl. Grace grants this. You seem to still be in denial over it.

Suppose I grant your claim that all past mtf soccer players were so-so when compared to biological girls.

This doesn't say anything about whether they received an unfair advantage. It just means that they were second rate before they got the advantage.

Given that we don't allow mediocre cis XY athletes to play down into the girl's league, we should not allow trans XY athletes to play down either.
Click to expand...

Objection. The word "unfair" assumes facts not in evidence. In fact, it is the very nature of the debate we are having is what exactly is fairness and when does something cross into unfairness. I have even gone so far as to argue that there is no such thing as a fairness concept....much of it is in the eye of the beholder and there are only winners and losers.

Further, just because the bell curves shift doesn't mean any one athlete has an advantage over another. The flaw, again, in your model is you are regarding the trans athlete as a sub set of a cis male whereas the proper way to look at it, even from a starting base line, is as its own data set with its own distribution.
 
Grace T. said:
Objection. The word "unfair" assumes facts not in evidence. In fact, it is the very nature of the debate we are having is what exactly is fairness and when does something cross into unfairness. I have even gone so far as to argue that there is no such thing as a fairness concept....much of it is in the eye of the beholder and there are only winners and losers.

Further, just because the bell curves shift doesn't mean any one athlete has an advantage over another. The flaw, again, in your model is you are regarding the trans athlete as a sub set of a cis male whereas the proper way to look at it, even from a starting base line, is as its own data set with its own distribution.
Click to expand...
Overruled.
 
Grace T. said:
Objection. The word "unfair" assumes facts not in evidence. In fact, it is the very nature of the debate we are having is what exactly is fairness and when does something cross into unfairness. I have even gone so far as to argue that there is no such thing as a fairness concept....much of it is in the eye of the beholder and there are only winners and losers.

Further, just because the bell curves shift doesn't mean any one athlete has an advantage over another. The flaw, again, in your model is you are regarding the trans athlete as a sub set of a cis male whereas the proper way to look at it, even from a starting base line, is as its own data set with its own distribution.
Click to expand...
In what meaningful way is an unmedicated trans XY athlete any different from an unmedicated cis XY athlete?

On the pitch, I don’t see any difference at all between the two people.

We have all sorts of evidence that being XY confers a very large advantage. Do you have any evidence that being trans confers a significant disadvantage? Or has any effect at all?
 
dad4 said:
For ECNL?

Simple. A mtf athlete has an unfair advantage over a biological girl. Grace grants this. You seem to still be in denial over it.

Suppose I grant your claim that all past mtf soccer players were so-so when compared to biological girls.

This doesn't say anything about whether they received an unfair advantage. It just means that they were second rate before they got the advantage.

Given that we don't allow mediocre cis XY athletes to play down into the girl's league, we should not allow trans XY athletes to play down either.
Click to expand...

Uh, I freely admit that a trans girl will almost certainly be more athletic than if she were born a biological girl. Maybe that gives her an "advantage" over your athletically-challenged daughter with the fragile ego, but certainly not an "unfair" one. It only means she is one of many kids who are proving that your kid has no business being on the pitch.
 
dad4 said:
In what meaningful way is an unmedicated trans XY athlete any different from an unmedicated cis XY athlete?

On the pitch, I don’t see any difference at all between the two people.

We have all sorts of evidence that being XY confers a very large advantage. Do you have any evidence that being trans confers a significant disadvantage? Or has any effect at all?
Click to expand...

Team sports participation, depression, and suicidal ideation in lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and questioning adolescents - LaRocca - Psychology in the Schools - Wiley Online Library

"For transgender students, participation in three or more team sports was associated with reduced likelihood of depression and participation in two or three or more team sports was associated with reduced likelihood of suicidal ideation. These findings indicate that team sports participation in LGBTQ youth is similarly associated with mental health benefits as heterosexual and cisgender youth. As LGBTQ youth experience disproportionate rates of depression and suicidality compared to heterosexual and cisgender youth, increased team sports participation may offer important mental health benefits. The data from this analysis thereby support the importance of inclusive team sports environments for LGBTQ youth.
...
Consistent with current evidence (Johnson et al., 2017; Mereish & Poteat, 2015), however, our findings also demonstrate that fewer LGBTQ youth participate in team sports than their heterosexual and cisgender counterparts. Recent evidence indicates that people identifying as LGBTQ+ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, questioning, and those who are sexuality and gender diverse) experience significant discrimination and exclusion in sport at all levels (Denison et al., 2020)."

This is where you admit that you don't care how many trans kids need to die for your athletically-challenged daughter to finally get that kiddie soccer trophy that you have wanted for so long. It is just that important.
 
dad4 said:
In what meaningful way is an unmedicated trans XY athlete any different from an unmedicated cis XY athlete?

On the pitch, I don’t see any difference at all between the two people.

We have all sorts of evidence that being XY confers a very large advantage. Do you have any evidence that being trans confers a significant disadvantage? Or has any effect at all?
Click to expand...

Here are a few more:

“I Get Treated Poorly in Regular School—Why Add To It?”: Transgender Girls' Experiences Choosing to Play or Not Play Sports | Transgender Health (liebertpub.com)
The moderating effect of physical activity on the relationship between bullying and mental health among sexual and gender minority youth - ScienceDirect
The Medical Implications of Banning Transgender Youth From Sport Participation | Adolescent Medicine | JAMA Pediatrics | JAMA Network

Is this where you agree that youth sports it highly important for the mental and physical health and welfare of our kids - so therefore we should kill as many trans kids as it takes to get your little athletically-challenged daughter a trophy?
 
dad4 said:
In what meaningful way is an unmedicated trans XY athlete any different from an unmedicated cis XY athlete?

On the pitch, I don’t see any difference at all between the two people.

We have all sorts of evidence that being XY confers a very large advantage. Do you have any evidence that being trans confers a significant disadvantage? Or has any effect at all?
Click to expand...

Just to be fair, I did a google search for "mental health impact of entitled Karen not winning a trophy", but all I came up with was a link to an article about how some slow but entitled girl in Connecticut got destroyed on the track and then in the courtroom.
 
SurFutbol said:
Team sports participation, depression, and suicidal ideation in lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and questioning adolescents - LaRocca - Psychology in the Schools - Wiley Online Library

"For transgender students, participation in three or more team sports was associated with reduced likelihood of depression and participation in two or three or more team sports was associated with reduced likelihood of suicidal ideation. These findings indicate that team sports participation in LGBTQ youth is similarly associated with mental health benefits as heterosexual and cisgender youth. As LGBTQ youth experience disproportionate rates of depression and suicidality compared to heterosexual and cisgender youth, increased team sports participation may offer important mental health benefits. The data from this analysis thereby support the importance of inclusive team sports environments for LGBTQ youth.
...
Consistent with current evidence (Johnson et al., 2017; Mereish & Poteat, 2015), however, our findings also demonstrate that fewer LGBTQ youth participate in team sports than their heterosexual and cisgender counterparts. Recent evidence indicates that people identifying as LGBTQ+ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, questioning, and those who are sexuality and gender diverse) experience significant discrimination and exclusion in sport at all levels (Denison et al., 2020)."

This is where you admit that you don't care how many trans kids need to die for your athletically-challenged daughter to finally get that kiddie soccer trophy that you have wanted for so long. It is just that important.
Click to expand...

Response coming: I didn't read any of that because someone called someone else a transphobe 5 posts above. I can't be bothered to consider the well being of others while my ego has been bruised by name calling.
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
Response coming: I didn't read any of that because someone called someone else a transphobe 5 posts above. I can't be bothered to consider the well being of others while my ego has been bruised by name calling.
Click to expand...

They must feel really good about themselves given that they only want to exclude trans kids from sports despite the fact that their god said it's totally cool to stone them to death.
 
dad4 said:
In what meaningful way is an unmedicated trans XY athlete any different from an unmedicated cis XY athlete?

On the pitch, I don’t see any difference at all between the two people.

We have all sorts of evidence that being XY confers a very large advantage. Do you have any evidence that being trans confers a significant disadvantage? Or has any effect at all?
Click to expand...
Wow I thought you were the big science guy?

Hypothesis: Given that the trans kid is likely afraid someone like you might deem the kid "obvious", that trans kid is likely not in the weight room bulking up with my cis son (who as an 8th grader somehow wormed his way into the high school weight room).

Whether or not it is in fact true is something that can be measured. I'm unaware of anyone ever having done it, but I have refereed two games with MTF trans athletes on. I can most assuredly tell you they were not your typical male. One was actually probably the worst player on the team. Is it possible you get some really high performer like a Caitlyn Jenner?yes. But it's also just as likely, particularly among those that are transitioning very early and came to the realization early, that they are somehow different. The Chicago piece I posted earlier, where they take a holistic approach to placement, seems to support this.

You've committed bad science by making assumptions about your data sets. But considering how the entire COVID thing went, and your math models in that context, I'm not really at all surprised.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
We don't need any science to figure out that two usernames on here need a private room - possibly a single.
Click to expand...

Wow, I am shocked that you and your transphobic friends have such serious sexual hang-ups. It's a miracle that none of you are freaking out about your daughters getting raped in the bathroom and seeing trans women's schlongs in the locker room.
 
SurFutbol said:
Team sports participation, depression, and suicidal ideation in lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and questioning adolescents - LaRocca - Psychology in the Schools - Wiley Online Library

"For transgender students, participation in three or more team sports was associated with reduced likelihood of depression and participation in two or three or more team sports was associated with reduced likelihood of suicidal ideation. These findings indicate that team sports participation in LGBTQ youth is similarly associated with mental health benefits as heterosexual and cisgender youth. As LGBTQ youth experience disproportionate rates of depression and suicidality compared to heterosexual and cisgender youth, increased team sports participation may offer important mental health benefits. The data from this analysis thereby support the importance of inclusive team sports environments for LGBTQ youth.
...
Consistent with current evidence (Johnson et al., 2017; Mereish & Poteat, 2015), however, our findings also demonstrate that fewer LGBTQ youth participate in team sports than their heterosexual and cisgender counterparts. Recent evidence indicates that people identifying as LGBTQ+ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, questioning, and those who are sexuality and gender diverse) experience significant discrimination and exclusion in sport at all levels (Denison et al., 2020)."

This is where you admit that you don't care how many trans kids need to die for your athletically-challenged daughter to finally get that kiddie soccer trophy that you have wanted for so long. It is just that important.
Click to expand...
Did you read the article? It found no statistically significant effect between sports participation and suicidal ideation among LGBTQ youth. Their conclusion is the opposite of what you claimed.

My bet is that sports are protective for all groups, but the study was underpowered to study small subgroups like LGBTQ.

Kind of moot for this discussion. The paper never looked at whether the sports effect is different depending on the gender of the team you join. Boys teams, girls teams, and co-ed teams were assumed to have the same effect.

If anything, the paper makes a solid argument that we should stop prioritizing varsity above intramural and rec teams. Sports are protective, so let's make sports accessible to more people.
 
SurFutbol said:
Wow, I am shocked that you and your transphobic friends have such serious sexual hang-ups. It's a miracle that none of you are freaking out about your daughters getting raped in the bathroom and seeing trans women's schlongs in the locker room.
Click to expand...
The thought of that turns you on, doesn't it? You are such a Pedo.
 
SurFutbol said:
They must feel really good about themselves given that they only want to exclude trans kids from sports despite the fact that their god said it's totally cool to stone them to death.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, been away for awhile. Is @SurFutbol the reincarnation of someone previously banned? (EOTL) Anyway, let me introduce myself.

So, humans in the US are not allowed to buy Alcohol or Cigarettes til the age of 21 becuase they lack the capacity to understand the consequences of those decisions. HOWEVER, they can choose to cut off their penis or boobs at the age of 14 and are encouraged to do so by Medicare and Politicians who in fact profit off of these procedures through lobbying and insurance.

Has anyone here ever looked at an insurance bill, for like an ankle brace or knee brace. Your Ortho will charge insurance $300 for a $50 brace. I could go on and on.

And let me be clear, nothing against the trans community after the age 18. At that point you are an adult but I consider parents who allow and encourage surgery before age 18 to be child abusers. If you don't know what you want to do in life, then you shouldn't be choosing what make believe gender you are.

Lastly, in my reading up, people like @SurFutbol are the ones who will yell, kick, scream and insult when they might be losing a point. See above. Taking a low blow at Christians AND Muslims which make up 55% of the world. Can't remember the last time I saw any Christian or Muslim in the US stoning a trans nor have I seen it condoned. I guess you prefer Sam Smith and Kim Petrus prancing around like the Devil and its worshippers and everything the Devil's morals stand for.

More later.
 
MARsSPEED said:
I don’t care what end. Create more Co-ed opportunities. The funny thing about that is that ot will just backfire. For anyone who has participated in co-ed sports, you know there is a certain regulation for how many females must play and be on a team. You know why? Because males teams made with only one female dominate the teams that have five or six females.

Stop trying to break things that aren’t broken for the sake of peoples feelings. Understand the consequences and to why there are consequences to actions.

“You want to transition? Ok, just know that you will not be able to play in girls sports BECAUSE YOU WERE BORN A MALE. Sorry but you can’t change that. You will have to continue playing with the boys. Why? Because it is the wrong choice based on everything we know about science, even if your as coordinated as a baby giraffe. Sorry, but these are the unfortunate facts. Your choice. You will have many many more choices like this in your future, many of those will likely hurt your feelings even more. So please get used to it now. As you know, you live in this world and THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOU AND YOUR DECISIONS. It would be selfish for you to believe that and I would be a horrible parent for letting you believe that.”

Deal with it.
Click to expand...

@SurFutbol
 
MARsSPEED said:
Hmmm, been away for awhile. Is @SurFutbol the reincarnation of someone previously banned? (EOTL) Anyway, let me introduce myself.

So, humans in the US are not allowed to buy Alcohol or Cigarettes til the age of 21 becuase they lack the capacity to understand the consequences of those decisions. HOWEVER, they can choose to cut off their penis or boobs at the age of 14 and are encouraged to do so by Medicare and Politicians who in fact profit off of these procedures through lobbying and insurance.

Has anyone here ever looked at an insurance bill, for like an ankle brace or knee brace. Your Ortho will charge insurance $300 for a $50 brace. I could go on and on.

And let me be clear, nothing against the trans community after the age 18. At that point you are an adult but I consider parents who allow and encourage surgery before age 18 to be child abusers. If you don't know what you want to do in life, then you shouldn't be choosing what make believe gender you are.

Lastly, in my reading up, people like @SurFutbol are the ones who will yell, kick, scream and insult when they might be losing a point. See above. Taking a low blow at Christians AND Muslims which make up 55% of the world. Can't remember the last time I saw any Christian or Muslim in the US stoning a trans nor have I seen it condoned. I guess you prefer Sam Smith and Kim Petrus prancing around like the Devil and its worshippers and everything the Devil's morals stand for.

More later.
Click to expand...
Welcome back Mars. Based on all your posts, your a fair minded papa and a true American. I look forward to hearing more points of view from the great @MARsSPEED. I feel bad for singers who just want to sing. What one has to do in order to be a pro singer is insane. You are forced to watch and support the worship of Satan. CBS news called "worship time" and the who worship service was sponsored by a drug company that makes the jabs. We have SF going low once again. This is insane to watch unfold by I did warn you a few years ago that this would happen. I just didn't know how and I still don't. Were in the Mother of all wars and Mother Nature is not happy.
 
MARsSPEED said:
Hmmm, been away for awhile. Is @SurFutbol the reincarnation of someone previously banned? (EOTL) Anyway, let me introduce myself.

So, humans in the US are not allowed to buy Alcohol or Cigarettes til the age of 21 becuase they lack the capacity to understand the consequences of those decisions. HOWEVER, they can choose to cut off their penis or boobs at the age of 14 and are encouraged to do so by Medicare and Politicians who in fact profit off of these procedures through lobbying and insurance.

Has anyone here ever looked at an insurance bill, for like an ankle brace or knee brace. Your Ortho will charge insurance $300 for a $50 brace. I could go on and on.

And let me be clear, nothing against the trans community after the age 18. At that point you are an adult but I consider parents who allow and encourage surgery before age 18 to be child abusers. If you don't know what you want to do in life, then you shouldn't be choosing what make believe gender you are.

Lastly, in my reading up, people like @SurFutbol are the ones who will yell, kick, scream and insult when they might be losing a point. See above. Taking a low blow at Christians AND Muslims which make up 55% of the world. Can't remember the last time I saw any Christian or Muslim in the US stoning a trans nor have I seen it condoned. I guess you prefer Sam Smith and Kim Petrus prancing around like the Devil and its worshippers and everything the Devil's morals stand for.

More later.
Click to expand...

None of this has anything to do with letting trans children play soccer. Despite all the transphobic bs about "cutting off penises", that is not required for children. Is your point with this that you just hate trans people?
 
dad4 said:
Did you read the article? It found no statistically significant effect between sports participation and suicidal ideation among LGBTQ youth. Their conclusion is the opposite of what you claimed.

My bet is that sports are protective for all groups, but the study was underpowered to study small subgroups like LGBTQ.

Kind of moot for this discussion. The paper never looked at whether the sports effect is different depending on the gender of the team you join. Boys teams, girls teams, and co-ed teams were assumed to have the same effect.

If anything, the paper makes a solid argument that we should stop prioritizing varsity above intramural and rec teams. Sports are protective, so let's make sports accessible to more people.
Click to expand...

I can't help those who can't read. I actually quoted the article for you. The articles I quoted were also pretty clear that transgender participation in youth sports is much lower due to the bullying and harassment they face participating with their own gender. You are clearly just a transphobic clown, and not amount of definitive proof or studies will ever result in you getting over your hatred of trans children. That is a common issue with religious folk.
 
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