Vaccine

[kickingandscreaming]

Sachs lays out his argument more completely here.

ttps://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2202769119

He is absolutely correct IMO in calling for openness in the funding history between American and Chinese coronavirus researchers. Completely reasonable. Although, if you've ever read through one of these funding applications, short of them saying "lets change the genome backbone we've been working with for 10 years to this new thing" I doubt it would produce anything definitive.

The problem with Sachs IMO is that, although he nuances it in academic speak, he basically accuses this guy, Daszak, along with his Chinese collaborators of engineering Cov2. It's really quite specific. Sachs initially appointed Daszak as head of his much heralded Lancet origins committee. Tensions within the committee have been well described. Some of Sachs' points-like the "what about the three deleted genome sequences" have turned out to be mostly duds (when you delete something from the internet it's never really gone). And the read he places on the FOIA material liberated by the Intercept-once you actually read it-doesn't really mesh well with what he takes it to mean. Sachs always comes back to is the furrin cleavage site as evidence of engineering, specifically Daszak/EcoAlliance engineering. Yet it is now clear that these cleavage sites (which potentiate activation of the spike protein for infection) are widespread in naturally occurring Cviruses. In the PNAS article I linked at the top in the sequence line up for his Figure 1 he only adds the SARS Cov2 FCS to make it appear that the FCS is completely unique. That's disingenuous and Sachs knows it, or should know it. So he loses some credibility for me.

Manmade construction of this virus is definitely possible. History is important so might as well keep looking for that evidence, since at this point nothing else will be dispositive. It will have to be a genome signature, document, or some IC evidence. Links are below. "h" cut off to kill annoying hyperlinks since most won't care but it's something i've been looking at for some time.

ttps://www.science.org/content/article/fights-over-confidentiality-pledge-and-conflicts-interest-tore-apart-covid-19-origin-probe
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Daszak
ttps://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/
ttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/deleted-coronavirus-genome-sequences-trigger-scientific-intrigue/
ttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1873506120304165

In the big picture of the path our country takes, the source of the virus is much, much less important than the public trust of all the scientists, reporters, agencies, and organizations involved in the process of determining what happened. One real conspiracy/coverup undermines trust immensely. One real event such as this spawns many more that are based on nothing and get their credibility simply due to the lack of trust in these experts and organizations.

 

[Kicker 2.0]

Mishandling classified info is a serious federal crime.

Unless your last name is Clinton.

 

[watfly]

Unless your last name is Clinton.

Or Comey

 

[dad4]

No, its like Biden telling us to go buy electric cars. Maybe a great idea, but not practical or feasible.

I take it you only own gas cars.

At our house, the electric car gets used more than the gas one. It's easier to park, more fun to drive, and the heat comes on quicker.

The usual pattern is the electric goes first, and whoever wakes up late gets the gas one.

 

[watfly]

Sachs lays out his argument more completely here.

ttps://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2202769119

He is absolutely correct IMO in calling for openness in the funding history between American and Chinese coronavirus researchers. Completely reasonable. Although, if you've ever read through one of these funding applications, short of them saying "lets change the genome backbone we've been working with for 10 years to this new thing" I doubt it would produce anything definitive.

The problem with Sachs IMO is that, although he nuances it in academic speak, he basically accuses this guy, Daszak, along with his Chinese collaborators of engineering Cov2. It's really quite specific. Sachs initially appointed Daszak as head of his much heralded Lancet origins committee. Tensions within the committee have been well described. Some of Sachs' points-like the "what about the three deleted genome sequences" have turned out to be mostly duds (when you delete something from the internet it's never really gone). And the read he places on the FOIA material liberated by the Intercept-once you actually read it-doesn't really mesh well with what he takes it to mean. Sachs always comes back to is the furrin cleavage site as evidence of engineering, specifically Daszak/EcoAlliance engineering. Yet it is now clear that these cleavage sites (which potentiate activation of the spike protein for infection) are widespread in naturally occurring Cviruses. In the PNAS article I linked at the top in the sequence line up for his Figure 1 he only adds the SARS Cov2 FCS to make it appear that the FCS is completely unique. That's disingenuous and Sachs knows it, or should know it. So he loses some credibility for me.

Manmade construction of this virus is definitely possible. History is important so might as well keep looking for that evidence, since at this point nothing else will be dispositive. It will have to be a genome signature, document, or some IC evidence. Links are below. "h" cut off to kill annoying hyperlinks since most won't care but it's something i've been looking at for some time.

ttps://www.science.org/content/article/fights-over-confidentiality-pledge-and-conflicts-interest-tore-apart-covid-19-origin-probe
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Daszak
ttps://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/
ttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/deleted-coronavirus-genome-sequences-trigger-scientific-intrigue/
ttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1873506120304165

It doesn't speak very highly of the scientific community if opinion can be shaped by the personal differences between scientists. It's very troubling in fact. Will Sachs be disciplined or censured for publicly stating certain falsehoods, or disingenuous opinion? It seems particularly critical in Sach's
case since he holds such a prominent position in the scientific community. Is there a Code of Ethics for scientists with ramifications for violating it? I'm a CPA (although I don't practice publicly anymore) and there are serious ramifications for violating the Code of Ethics which are enforced by the State association. Sometimes its just a public censure in the State Association newsletter, but it call also be a temporary or permanent suspension of your license. You're also required every 4 years to take an ethics course. Is there a continuing education requirement for scientists to take ethics training? The reason for this is 100% to instill public trust in the profession.

Like you said it goes to credibility and that's been a serious problem during the pandemic. This has lead to a mistrust by the general public of scientific opinion and studies. To me its a lot more dangerous for scientists to promote misinformation than it is for joe blow to do it on social media. Ironically its only Joe Blow who seems to get censured. Scientists have to be more careful with their opinions since they are imbued with an inherent credibility because were not supposed to question "science".

Regardless of Sach's credibility, there are enough red flags to warrant a thorough and unbiased investigation into the lab. Unfortunately, I don't think it "could" happen because China won't allow it and have already destroyed any evidence, I also don't think it "would" happen because the scientific community wouldn't want egg on its face.

I also think a investigation is warranted because of the lack of evidence for zoonotic origin for Covid. We have yet to identify a source animal or an intermediary animal for human spread. This is very unlike SARS where we identified dozens of Civets with the virus. So until we do the lab leak is a viable, arguably more viable, theory than zoonotic source of the virus.

 

[espola]

No, its like Biden telling us to go buy electric cars. Maybe a great idea, but not practical or feasible.

They are certainly feasible for the bulk of SoCal short-commute driving. If you are planning a trip to Mammoth, the closest bet would be a hybrid that can charge its own batteries.

The ideal of practicality would be an electric car charged at a house equipped with solar panels (with occasional top-offs at one of the free charging stations some stores and shopping centers offer to their customers.

 

[watfly]

I take it you only own gas cars.

At our house, the electric car gets used more than the gas one. It's easier to park, more fun to drive, and the heat comes on quicker.

The usual pattern is the electric goes first, and whoever wakes up late gets the gas one.

I don't, I think the technology is great although I don't know if at the end of the day it really leaves a smaller carbon footprint. I'd like to get an electric car when the time comes for a new car. The idea of not paying for gas is a strong incentive.

However, while buying an EV is a reality for me, its not for most American's at this time. It's not just cost but charging, you really need to be a homeowner to charge it in most cases.

 

[Grace T.]

They are certainly feasible for the bulk of SoCal short-commute driving. If you are planning a trip to Mammoth, the closest bet would be a hybrid that can charge its own batteries.

The ideal of practicality would be an electric car charged at a house equipped with solar panels (with occasional top-offs at one of the free charging stations some stores and shopping centers offer to their customers.

Why are we discussing electric cars in a vaccine forum?

Well, since this is a soccer board, anyone who goes to a tournament in Temecula and sees the line at the electric charge stations just off the freeway at the gas stations on Sunday when the tournament ends, and the weekend hotels are emptying, can see the issue. You sometimes can't even get into a charging port and have to wait 5-6 cars deep to get a slot. I've also seen arguments from tired commuters there complaining over where the line starts and who cut it. No thanks. Fix that issue first.

 

[watfly]

Why are we discussing electric cars in a vaccine forum?

Well, since this is a soccer board, anyone who goes to a tournament in Temecula and sees the line at the electric charge stations just off the freeway at the gas stations on Sunday when the tournament ends, and the weekend hotels are emptying, can see the issue. You sometimes can't even get into a charging port and have to wait 5-6 cars deep to get a slot. I've also seen arguments from tired commuters there complaining over where the line starts and who cut it. No thanks. Fix that issue first.

I brought it up as an analogy, so my bad.

We went with a teammate in their Tesla to a regular season MLS Next game in LA (completely sketchy part of town). I was surprised how slammed the charging stations were. At one we had to wait 20 minutes to charge plus charging time added a lot of time to our travel.

 

[Grace T.]

A great article on the failure of experts. Most things fail. The only difference is that now the internet has exposed the failures for everyone to see at the click of a mouse, but the politicians (backed by the expert priestly caste) continue to overpromise. The experts though still with all their hubris thought they could control COVID and then inflation, leading to a crisis in confidence for our institutions.

Will we escape our age of failure?

Inflation has crushed our incompetent elites

unherd.com

 

[espola]

I don't, I think the technology is great although I don't know if at the end of the day it really leaves a smaller carbon footprint. I'd like to get an electric car when the time comes for a new car. The idea of not paying for gas is a strong incentive.

However, while buying an EV is a reality for me, its not for most American's at this time. It's not just cost but charging, you really need to be a homeowner to charge it in most cases.

How Clean is Your Electric Vehicle?

On average, electric vehicles (EVs) produce less carbon pollution than comparable gasoline-fueled cars. Just how much less depends on where they’re charged.

evtool.ucsusa.org

 

[Grace T.]

How Clean is Your Electric Vehicle?

On average, electric vehicles (EVs) produce less carbon pollution than comparable gasoline-fueled cars. Just how much less depends on where they’re charged.

evtool.ucsusa.org

A couple of additional problems:

1. Doesn't take into account the construction and battery replacement.
2. Wind and solar isn't as clean as initially thought. There is environmental damage from their existence, environmental damage from their maintenance and the battery storage problem. To be truly clean, it would need to be connected to an atomic source.

 

[watfly]

How Clean is Your Electric Vehicle?

On average, electric vehicles (EVs) produce less carbon pollution than comparable gasoline-fueled cars. Just how much less depends on where they’re charged.

evtool.ucsusa.org

We can play this game all day long if you'd like. I'm undecided on the environmental benefits.

 

[watfly]

A couple of additional problems:

1. Doesn't take into account the construction and battery replacement.
2. Wind and solar isn't as clean as initially thought. There is environmental damage from their existence, environmental damage from their maintenance and the battery storage problem. To be truly clean, it would need to be connected to an atomic source.

We can't have a serious conversation about electric cars until we include nuclear in the conversation.

 

[espola]

A couple of additional problems:

1. Doesn't take into account the construction and battery replacement.
2. Wind and solar isn't as clean as initially thought. There is environmental damage from their existence, environmental damage from their maintenance and the battery storage problem. To be truly clean, it would need to be connected to an atomic source.

So you are listening to the experts now?

 

[Grace T.]

So you are listening to the experts now?

I always listen to the experts and weigh with my own reason the arguments they make from both sides.

People like you and dad4 listen to the experts that confirm your priors and then discount the views of those that disagree with you as snake oil salesmen and not true "experts". It helps too if the "experts" that you like are in the establishment and not outsiders.

I will concede my bias is for the plucky outsiders and don't passers. It's just serendipity that it serves me well in the current era.

 

[espola]

I always listen to the experts and weigh with my own reason the arguments they make from both sides.

People like you and dad4 listen to the experts that confirm your priors and then discount the views of those that disagree with you as snake oil salesmen and not true "experts". It helps too if the "experts" that you like are in the establishment and not outsiders.

I will concede my bias is for the plucky outsiders and don't passers. It's just serendipity that it serves me well in the current era.

I don't think you read very much of what I post.

 

[Grace T.]

I don't think you read very much of what I post.

I read every word. You are my favorite after all. You always bring a smile to my face.

I just sometimes have difficultly distinguishing on your part the deliberate intentional comedy from the pure happenstance.

 

[watfly]

I read every word. You are my favorite after all. You always bring a smile to my face.

I just sometimes have difficultly distinguishing on your part the deliberate intentional comedy from the pure happenstance.

You certainly get under his skin. It's oddly fascinating to see. I do wonder sometimes why you even bother responding since his posts speak for themselves.

 

[Desert Hound]

A couple of additional problems:

1. Doesn't take into account the construction and battery replacement.
2. Wind and solar isn't as clean as initially thought. There is environmental damage from their existence, environmental damage from their maintenance and the battery storage problem. To be truly clean, it would need to be connected to an atomic source.

Electric vehicles have what is known as a long tailpipe.

Most are unaware that they are far from zero emission vehicles.

Vid does a good job explaining that.

 

[Kicker 2.0]

They are certainly feasible for the bulk of SoCal short-commute driving. If you are planning a trip to Mammoth, the closest bet would be a hybrid that can charge its own batteries.

The ideal of practicality would be an electric car charged at a house equipped with solar panels (with occasional top-offs at one of the free charging stations some stores and shopping centers offer to their customers.

How about the ability to afford one in these inflationary times?