Vaccine

Desert Hound said:
What is interesting in the above is the IT WORKS FOR DELTA.

It wasn't that long ago you were terrified of DELTA. Now you basically admit it really doesn't affect the vast vast majority of people. So you are now on to Omicron as the next thing to fear.

To date none of the variants have presented a risk to the population at large...

Which is why people are moving on.

The fear peddled by politicians and the press are not coming true in real life.
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There aren't 800,000 people dead of covid un USA?
 
Grace T. said:
Yup, but while it was a tight question with the delta (remember while on the fence, I leaned in favor of state but not federal mandates early on), I think the omicron settles it very easily: not good enough to mandate (again, unless you don't believe people should have the right to decide where to work, to have children, to engage in risky activities like extreme sports or even soccer and to vote). Cost/benefits are messy.
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Yeah I’m not down with government mandates. “Let the market work it out”
 
Hüsker Dü said:
It’s not discrimination it’s protection for rest of the herd. If you ever worked a herd of cattle you’d know what I mean.
No lecture just curious. Government shouldn’t mandate except in extreme cases, but private businesses can screen all they want. Just because the unvaccinated are restricted from certain activities isn’t a mandate it’s protection for the others. Things like flying commercial are a privilege not a right.
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Honestly Husker I don't really think were that far apart. I think we both agree that the Government shouldn't mandate it in this case. I understand your point in regards to private companies requiring it, I just don't think that's a good idea and we will see what the Courts say about it. It's been mixed so far. The scales for Government mandate vs Individual choice tip heavily to individual choice for me. The scales for private business choice vs individual choice is closer in balance in my mind.
 
dad4 said:
1- Natural immunity has worked for about 299 out of every 300 people. The other one died. He was probably old and/or overweight. Let’s not forget about him.

2- If the case spike puts us in a crisis standard of care, early treatment is not an option. No one will have the time to prescribe or administer it.
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No one is forgetting about him. Old/overweight - should be vaxxed. Maybe he chose to not vax, maybe he chose to vax. If vaxxed, could stll die. With Omicron, likley not.

Crisis standard of care is a different ball game but is not a linear approach. Most patients can/should be treated by their primary care, not told to go home and wait and see. You make it the term seem so black and white. There is plenty of nuance involved in figuring out who gets what during crisis standard of care. If your buddies in the medical world are talking about crisis standard of care in relation to Omicron, find new people to get your medical advice from.
 
watfly said:
Honestly Husker I don't really think were that far apart. I think we both agree that the Government shouldn't mandate it in this case. I understand your point in regards to private companies requiring it, I just don't think that's a good idea and we will see what the Courts say about it. It's been mixed so far. The scales for Government mandate vs Individual choice tip heavily to individual choice for me. The scales for private business choice vs individual choice is closer in balance in my mind.
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Baking a cake and the possibility of putting patrons in possible mortal danger (yeah I know hyperbolic unless obese, aged, immune compromised, smoker or unhealthy in some way, 97.3 % of your fellow Americans) are quite different. No shoes, no shirt, no service.
 
Grace T. said:
BTW, the world has a huge problem building. The early data is showing one of the Chinese viruses (the one most heavily in use...I think is sinovax) is 0% effective at stopping disease or transmission and 20% effective at severe disease. A lot of Africa, Asia and South America used the Chinese vaccine but there's also a lot of natural immunity there....t cells are turning out to be great (some of us were saying that since March/April 2020)....but 1 billion people (some portion, we don't know what due to Chinese lying, has had it) immunonaive and NPIS against the omicron doing nothing. That leaves the Chinese with a few choices: 1) continue going all out on their suppression, which will be harder and much more painful if even the hard NPIs of China fail, 2) hope the omicron data continues to show that even among the immunonaive it is mild (the data doesn't seem to be showing that in Europe...less deaths but still hospitalizations....the open question is how much prior immunity does Asia really have from cross coronaviruses), and 3) swipe the pfizer.moderna vaccine and trade sanctions be damned (probably the least painful choice but the Chinese economy isn't doing well and is teetering badly....sanctions would be another brick to add on that). 1 billion Chinese and their zoonotic reserves is an awful lot of room for more variants.
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Huge problem?

Only in areas with enough old and overweight people that the hospitals can get overwhelmed. That describes US, Europe, and a few smaller places.

But much of the world is young, thin, and in summer. They’ll be more like South Africa than UK.

The other case is East Asia. I’m not up for discussing NPI effectiveness with you again. But I think China and Japan will be fine.
 
espola said:
It's consistent with this part --

"Quit listening to talking heads on tv and reading partisan material. Talking heads with direct ties to the money trail are biased.

Find a practioner that isn't scared "
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And? what is your issue with any of that. Clearly it's an opinion. If you don't agree, then don't. If you like listening and blindly follow what the TV tells you, then so be it. I'm not judgy. Skepticism is a good thing. Science and medicine has historically been led by skeptics. It's the nature of the disciplines. If you think that people with obvoius ties to big pharma aren't influenced by large checks, then so be it.
 
what-happened said:
And? what is your issue with any of that. Clearly it's an opinion. If you don't agree, then don't. If you like listening and blindly follow what the TV tells you, then so be it. I'm not judgy. Skepticism is a good thing. Science and medicine has historically been led by skeptics. It's the nature of the disciplines. If you think that people with obvoius ties to big pharma aren't influenced by large checks, then so be it.
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Soooo you listen to?
 
dad4 said:
Your “natural immunity works great” message does ignore the 800,000 dead people.

It seems that their particular immune systems came up short just this once.
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That's your takeway? Did you just have coffee with @espola?

And you are right, their immune system did come up short. If you think your immune system isn't up to the task, then go get vaccinated, lose some weight, etc.

Continue to blindly throw around 800K people dead without admitting things could have been done differently for a high percentage of those people. Viruses have a way of getting around numbers on a spreadsheet.
 
what-happened said:
And? what is your issue with any of that. Clearly it's an opinion. If you don't agree, then don't. If you like listening and blindly follow what the TV tells you, then so be it. I'm not judgy. Skepticism is a good thing. Science and medicine has historically been led by skeptics. It's the nature of the disciplines. If you think that people with obvoius ties to big pharma aren't influenced by large checks, then so be it.
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You're skeptical about situations you don't like, and accept the thesis that the media is bought off by big pharma.

Or is that just some part of the media? Does your skepticism only look in one direction?
 
Hüsker Dü said:
Baking a cake and the possibility of putting patrons in possible mortal danger (yeah I know hyperbolic unless obese, aged, immune compromised, smoker or unhealthy in some way, 97.3 % of your fellow Americans) are quite different. No shoes, no shirt, no service.
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Sorry but I can't see that phrase and not think of this:

No doubt that certain workplaces can make a more compelling argument for a vaccine mandate. I can't recall seeing a food worker that hasn't been masked. If its my business, I'm probably taking a different approach than mandating vaccines. I might even take a different approach that isn't substantially better than my preferred approach if it reduced my liability exposure. There's a lot more variables then just the effectiveness of the vaccine to consider.

We can split hairs, but in my mind we're generally on the same page, just different paragraphs. I think you're just a little more black and white than I am.
 
what-happened said:
That's your takeway? Did you just have coffee with @espola?

And you are right, their immune system did come up short. If you think your immune system isn't up to the task, then go get vaccinated, lose some weight, etc.

Continue to blindly throw around 800K people dead without admitting things could have been done differently for a high percentage of those people. Viruses have a way of getting around numbers on a spreadsheet.
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What makes you think that people know their risk in advance?

If you ask people, not many will say “I am 50 pounds overweight and I will die 15 years early as a result”. You are more likely to hear “I played lots of sports back when I was younger, but I have a couple extra pounds because my knees just won’t let run like I used to.“
 
dad4 said:
What makes you think that people know their risk in advance?

If you ask people, not many will say “I am 50 pounds overweight and I will die 15 years early as a result”. You are more likely to hear “I played lots of sports back when I was younger, but I have a couple extra pounds because my knees just won’t let run like I used to.“
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That's what doctors are for, not politicians or you.

What makes you think that politicians or health policy bureaucrats know my risks?
 
dad4 said:
What makes you think that people know their risk in advance?

If you ask people, not many will say “I am 50 pounds overweight and I will die 15 years early as a result”. You are more likely to hear “I played lots of sports back when I was younger, but I have a couple extra pounds because my knees just won’t let run like I used to.“
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Then swim, ride a bike, walk, yoga, Pilates . . .
My favorite is “I’m too busy”, for your health? Keeping up with the Jones’s should be redefined in health terms not wealth. Die early with a nice casket? WTF!
 
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