Vaccine

[Hüsker Dü]

Honestly Husker I don't really think were that far apart. I think we both agree that the Government shouldn't mandate it in this case. I understand your point in regards to private companies requiring it, I just don't think that's a good idea and we will see what the Courts say about it. It's been mixed so far. The scales for Government mandate vs Individual choice tip heavily to individual choice for me. The scales for private business choice vs individual choice is closer in balance in my mind.

Baking a cake and the possibility of putting patrons in possible mortal danger (yeah I know hyperbolic unless obese, aged, immune compromised, smoker or unhealthy in some way, 97.3 % of your fellow Americans) are quite different. No shoes, no shirt, no service.

 

[dad4]

BTW, the world has a huge problem building. The early data is showing one of the Chinese viruses (the one most heavily in use...I think is sinovax) is 0% effective at stopping disease or transmission and 20% effective at severe disease. A lot of Africa, Asia and South America used the Chinese vaccine but there's also a lot of natural immunity there....t cells are turning out to be great (some of us were saying that since March/April 2020)....but 1 billion people (some portion, we don't know what due to Chinese lying, has had it) immunonaive and NPIS against the omicron doing nothing. That leaves the Chinese with a few choices: 1) continue going all out on their suppression, which will be harder and much more painful if even the hard NPIs of China fail, 2) hope the omicron data continues to show that even among the immunonaive it is mild (the data doesn't seem to be showing that in Europe...less deaths but still hospitalizations....the open question is how much prior immunity does Asia really have from cross coronaviruses), and 3) swipe the pfizer.moderna vaccine and trade sanctions be damned (probably the least painful choice but the Chinese economy isn't doing well and is teetering badly....sanctions would be another brick to add on that). 1 billion Chinese and their zoonotic reserves is an awful lot of room for more variants.

Huge problem?

Only in areas with enough old and overweight people that the hospitals can get overwhelmed. That describes US, Europe, and a few smaller places.

But much of the world is young, thin, and in summer. They’ll be more like South Africa than UK.

The other case is East Asia. I’m not up for discussing NPI effectiveness with you again. But I think China and Japan will be fine.

 

[what-happened]

It's consistent with this part --

"Quit listening to talking heads on tv and reading partisan material. Talking heads with direct ties to the money trail are biased.

Find a practioner that isn't scared "

And? what is your issue with any of that. Clearly it's an opinion. If you don't agree, then don't. If you like listening and blindly follow what the TV tells you, then so be it. I'm not judgy. Skepticism is a good thing. Science and medicine has historically been led by skeptics. It's the nature of the disciplines. If you think that people with obvoius ties to big pharma aren't influenced by large checks, then so be it.

 

[dad4]

That's your take away?

Your “natural immunity works great” message does ignore the 800,000 dead people.

It seems that their particular immune systems came up short just this once.

 

[crush]

No shoes, no shirt, no service.

 

[Hüsker Dü]

And? what is your issue with any of that. Clearly it's an opinion. If you don't agree, then don't. If you like listening and blindly follow what the TV tells you, then so be it. I'm not judgy. Skepticism is a good thing. Science and medicine has historically been led by skeptics. It's the nature of the disciplines. If you think that people with obvoius ties to big pharma aren't influenced by large checks, then so be it.

Soooo you listen to?

 

[what-happened]

Your “natural immunity works great” message does ignore the 800,000 dead people.

It seems that their particular immune systems came up short just this once.

That's your takeway? Did you just have coffee with @espola?

And you are right, their immune system did come up short. If you think your immune system isn't up to the task, then go get vaccinated, lose some weight, etc.

Continue to blindly throw around 800K people dead without admitting things could have been done differently for a high percentage of those people. Viruses have a way of getting around numbers on a spreadsheet.

 

[espola]

And? what is your issue with any of that. Clearly it's an opinion. If you don't agree, then don't. If you like listening and blindly follow what the TV tells you, then so be it. I'm not judgy. Skepticism is a good thing. Science and medicine has historically been led by skeptics. It's the nature of the disciplines. If you think that people with obvoius ties to big pharma aren't influenced by large checks, then so be it.

You're skeptical about situations you don't like, and accept the thesis that the media is bought off by big pharma.

Or is that just some part of the media? Does your skepticism only look in one direction?

 

[watfly]

Baking a cake and the possibility of putting patrons in possible mortal danger (yeah I know hyperbolic unless obese, aged, immune compromised, smoker or unhealthy in some way, 97.3 % of your fellow Americans) are quite different. No shoes, no shirt, no service.

Sorry but I can't see that phrase and not think of this:

No doubt that certain workplaces can make a more compelling argument for a vaccine mandate. I can't recall seeing a food worker that hasn't been masked. If its my business, I'm probably taking a different approach than mandating vaccines. I might even take a different approach that isn't substantially better than my preferred approach if it reduced my liability exposure. There's a lot more variables then just the effectiveness of the vaccine to consider.

We can split hairs, but in my mind we're generally on the same page, just different paragraphs. I think you're just a little more black and white than I am.

 

[dad4]

That's your takeway? Did you just have coffee with @espola?

And you are right, their immune system did come up short. If you think your immune system isn't up to the task, then go get vaccinated, lose some weight, etc.

Continue to blindly throw around 800K people dead without admitting things could have been done differently for a high percentage of those people. Viruses have a way of getting around numbers on a spreadsheet.

What makes you think that people know their risk in advance?

If you ask people, not many will say “I am 50 pounds overweight and I will die 15 years early as a result”. You are more likely to hear “I played lots of sports back when I was younger, but I have a couple extra pounds because my knees just won’t let run like I used to.“

 

[watfly]

What makes you think that people know their risk in advance?

If you ask people, not many will say “I am 50 pounds overweight and I will die 15 years early as a result”. You are more likely to hear “I played lots of sports back when I was younger, but I have a couple extra pounds because my knees just won’t let run like I used to.“

That's what doctors are for, not politicians or you.

What makes you think that politicians or health policy bureaucrats know my risks?

 

[dad4]

That's what doctors are for, not politicians or you.

What makes you think that politicians or health policy bureaucrats know my risks?

Your risks? It’s not all about you.

Health policy bureaucrats are asked to worry about the health of the community as a whole.

 

[Hüsker Dü]

Your risks? It’s not all about you.

Health policy bureaucrats are asked to worry about the health of the community as a whole.

Some people will never be able to grasp that idea.

 

[Hüsker Dü]

What makes you think that people know their risk in advance?

If you ask people, not many will say “I am 50 pounds overweight and I will die 15 years early as a result”. You are more likely to hear “I played lots of sports back when I was younger, but I have a couple extra pounds because my knees just won’t let run like I used to.“

Then swim, ride a bike, walk, yoga, Pilates . . .
My favorite is “I’m too busy”, for your health? Keeping up with the Jones’s should be redefined in health terms not wealth. Die early with a nice casket? WTF!

 

[Desert Hound]

Your “natural immunity works great” message does ignore the 800,000 dead people.

Not really. That number was always baked in.

We are not a big or small island like Aus/NZ. We were never going to be that authoritarian, not allowing people in or out, etc.

Our numbers overall are rather similar to the Euro zone where everyone did different things to try to prevent and all roughly ended up at the same point.

You and others have this delusion that we were just going to lock up, not let anyone in or out, going rather authoritarian and then that would work and be the ideal solution.

It would not have mattered a bit if it were a D or R with the presidency at the start of this. We would still be around the same numbers.

 

[watfly]

Your risks? It’s not all about you.

Health policy bureaucrats are asked to worry about the health of the community as a whole.

I'll rely on my doctor, thanks. There are many ways to skin this cat, we shouldn't be forced by the government to take their imperfect treatment.

Look on one far side you have those that are afraid and/or government reliant that will do what the government instructs them to do pretty much no questions asked. On the other far end you have the anti-government types that regardless of how good it may be they aren't going to do it because the recommendation simply came from the government. Most people are in the middle and weigh the cost-benefits personally but in many cases community wise as well. They require a compelling reason like effectiveness and alternatives to follow the governments recommendation. If it was that great, you would only have the anti-government types avoiding the vaccine. A red flag gets raised when you have to coerce, bribe and mandate to force someone to get the vaccine.

 

[Desert Hound]

A red flag gets raised when you have to coerce, bribe and mandate to force someone to get the vaccine.

Mandates get under the skin of a lot of people.

Even more so when this is a new vaccine (different ones from the pharma companies) and there has been NO LONG TERM studies on it. To force people who have really no risk to take something that hasn't been studied over the long term is not good policy and is going to rightly get a lot of pushback.

 

[crush]

Warning Warning!!! "GG" is here....

 

[MicPaPa]

Let me get this straight, is it your opinion that if a vaccination isn’t 100% full proof, whether it provides any protection at all, it is useless?

Not opinion, "produce immunity" is literally in the definition of vaccination, this isn't it. Going through life stuck on stupid should not be a goal.

 

[Desert Hound]

Mandates get under the skin of a lot of people.

Even more so when this is a new vaccine (different ones from the pharma companies) and there has been NO LONG TERM studies on it. To force people who have really no risk to take something that hasn't been studied over the long term is not good policy and is going to rightly get a lot of pushback.

And as I finished up writing the above...I came across this news story regarding the CDC and a vaccine.

Vaccine advisers to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are meeting Thursday to weigh possible limits on the use of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine because of continued blood clot issues, mostly in young and middle-aged women, according to clinicians familiar with the agenda.

---

In other words they are finding issues and that certain groups are having issues.

And yet people here and in power want to MANDATE people to take a vaccine that has not had long term studies done at it. And failure to do so may lead some people to lose their jobs.

Bad policy. Terrible policy.

Dad has been on here before stating these vaxxes are safe. So have the other usual suspects.

The truth is we are still finding stuff out.

CDC advisers to weigh limits on Johnson & Johnson vaccine because of continued blood clot issues

Vaccine advisers to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention will weigh possible limits on the use of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine because of continued blood clot issues, mostly in young and middle-aged women.

www.seattletimes.com

 

[Grace T.]

Huge problem?

Only in areas with enough old and overweight people that the hospitals can get overwhelmed. That describes US, Europe, and a few smaller places.

But much of the world is young, thin, and in summer. They’ll be more like South Africa than UK.

The other case is East Asia. I’m not up for discussing NPI effectiveness with you again. But I think China and Japan will be fine.

A. You haven’t looked at the BMI index in China recently have you…as they gotten richer it’s gone bigger…same with age
B. The experiences in Latin America beg to differ
C. I thought your main concern was more variants. That’s a billion more chances for variants.
D. If Asia turns out all right it will be because of preexisting T cell immunity, genetics and/or the very harsh prc measures