Vaccine

dad4 said:
The children in masks were less likely to spread the virus to other people. As advertised.

What did you think the masks were for? They are source control, not PPE.

If you look at the class map, it's a clear explanation for why moderate distance is not a substitute for masking. The nine kids closest to the teacher all got it. Neither 3 nor 6 feet was protective.
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"The nine kids closest to the teacher all got it."

... resulting in what?
 
dad4 said:
What did you think the masks were for? They are source control, not PPE.
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You know full well that they are promoted as both.

Let me ask you a question...is it misinformation to say that masks provide limited protection from the virus?
 
watfly said:
How'd did those masks work for the children in that teacher's class? I'm not anti-mask for children, I'm anti mask mandates for children, I'm pro-choice and pro-truth about masks (aka they provide limited protection against the virus). I'm very pro-vaccine and pro-natural immunity, as natural immunity provides significantly better immunity than vaccination.

There are many ways to tackle the pandemic besides masks and vaccines, but we have to be rational about the fact we can't stop the virus. Our goals have to be rational and reasonable, and have to go beyond myopic thinking by including cost/benefit/risk analysis. Btw there is nothing rational about making unvaccinated kids get tested twice a week to play outdoors sports. Which means every kid under 12. Insanity.
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Acquiring natural immunity means passing through the risks of severe symptoms, hospitalization, and death.

I'll take the less effective vaccine, thank you.
 
Grace T. said:
Israel Hawaii and Iceland beg to disagree. You’ll explain those away no doubt. But we have the great experiment underway: Canada with some provinces with very high vaccination and as of a week ago almost all have mask mandates back in place, while they are also no moving into season.
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You're using Hawaii as an example of a highly vaccinated population?

Check your data. Last time we talked HI, they were barely over the US average.

If you can name a place with an enforced, or at least well observed, mask mandate and over 90% adult vax rate, let's look at their numbers. I bet it would be low. We could also look at anywhere with a 70% adult vax rate and significant past cases.
 
watfly said:
You know full well that they are promoted as both.

Let me ask you a question...is it misinformation to say that masks provide limited protection from the virus?
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I would call that misinformation. The mask provides significant protection against spreading the virus.

Saying " limited protection from the virus" is similar to saying that seat belts don't prevent car crashes. You've choosen a wording which deliberately misses the point.
 
dad4 said:
You're using Hawaii as an example of a highly vaccinated population?

Check your data. Last time we talked HI, they were barely over the US average.

If you can name a place with an enforced, or at least well observed, mask mandate and over 90% adult vax rate, let's look at their numbers. I bet it would be low. We could also look at anywhere with a 70% adult vax rate and significant past cases.
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dad4 said:
You're using Hawaii as an example of a highly vaccinated population?

Check your data. Last time we talked HI, they were barely over the US average.

If you can name a place with an enforced, or at least well observed, mask mandate and over 90% adult vax rate, let's look at their numbers. I bet it would be low. We could also look at anywhere with a 70% adult vax rate and significant past cases.
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*PRESTO!* You rule the world:

1. What is your goal...no one gets it? or what % getting it is acceptable?

2. At what cost?
 
dad4 said:
And bringing it home to their families. The kids were an infection vector to other parts of the community. You forgot that part.
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In the same report were noted other infections in the same school in different classrooms. One case was a cluster of three who had spent a night together at a sleepover (presumably unmasked and at close distance). No other students in that masked classroom were affected. Since the researchers were testing all the students to track the course of the infection, they found 4 other students in separate classrooms who tested positive, but none of their classmates did. That is strong evidence (not an anecdote) that masking students in school situations reduces the risk of transmission.
 
dad4 said:
I would call that misinformation. The mask provides significant protection against spreading the virus.

Saying " limited protection from the virus" is similar to saying that seat belts don't prevent car crashes. You've choosen a wording which deliberately misses the point.
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That analogy isn't remotely comparable.

That teacher thought the same thing you did that it provided significant protection, which is patently false. You're only encouraging the infected to go out in public which is insanity.

Please note that the 79% effectiveness of masks you quote was only for those that wore masks prior to showing symptoms. Symptomatics are a much different equation.
 
espola said:
In the same report were noted other infections in the same school in different classrooms. One case was a cluster of three who had spent a night together at a sleepover (presumably unmasked and at close distance). No other students in that masked classroom were affected. Since the researchers were testing all the students to track the course of the infection, they found 4 other students in separate classrooms who tested positive, but none of their classmates did. That is strong evidence (not an anecdote) that masking students in school situations reduces the risk of transmission.
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Another point I forgot to include -- the teacher was unvaccinated. If the school district cannot enforce a vaccination requirement for teachers, can they at least provide informed consent to parents, warning them which teachers are not vaccinated?
 
watfly said:
That analogy isn't remotely comparable.

That teacher thought the same thing you did that it provided significant protection, which is patently false. You're only encouraging the infected to go out in public which is insanity.

Please note that the 79% effectiveness of masks you quote was only for those that wore masks prior to showing symptoms. Symptomatics are a much different equation.
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You don’t see the analogy because you keep confusing masks as PPE with masks as source control. They are very different ideas.

Once you can separate those two concepts, the teacher’s mistake will make more sense to you.
 
dad4 said:
You're using Hawaii as an example of a highly vaccinated population?

Check your data. Last time we talked HI, they were barely over the US average.

If you can name a place with an enforced, or at least well observed, mask mandate and over 90% adult vax rate, let's look at their numbers. I bet it would be low. We could also look at anywhere with a 70% adult vax rate and significant past cases.
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So now it has to be 90% vax rate (which is you count everyone, as you know is near impossible, since 12 and under can't get vaxxed).

As to the 70% adult vax rate...see below...Israel is on the verge of a lockdown despite masks, despite vaccines, and as I said, Canada will be the great experiment.
 
dad4 said:
You don’t see the analogy because you keep confusing masks as PPE with masks as source control. They are very different ideas.

Once you can separate those two concepts, the teacher’s mistake will make more sense to you.
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Youre confusing me with the media, some county health officials and some politicians that are promoting it as PPE which is oveselling masks which is exactly my point. They never differentiate the two because they dont understand the studies. I fully understand its limitations. I willingly wear a mask on airplanes but understand that its protecton is limited as im elbow to elbow with a stranger (who is not masked when eating or drinking) Quite frankly Im amazed that i havent gotten Delta given all the flights Ive taken. I believe HEPA filters are far more effective than masks, but still limited. I assume the risk.

If I get infected through some kid at school, thats on me. Im not going to play the victim card. Remember im the adult.
 
watfly said:
Youre confusing me with the media, some county health officials and some politicians that are promoting it as PPE which is oveselling masks which is exactly my point. They never differentiate the two because they dont understand the studies. I fully understand its limitations. I willingly wear a mask on airplanes but understand that its protecton is limited as im elbow to elbow with a stranger (who is not masked when eating or drinking) Quite frankly Im amazed that i havent gotten Delta given all the flights Ive taken. I believe HEPA filters are far more effective than masks, but still limited. I assume the risk.

If I get infected through some kid at school, thats on me. Im not going to play the victim card. Remember im the adult.
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The stupidest thing is still the restaurants and bars...wearing a mask to get in and out but everyone is sitting there without a mask on eating and drinking. It's security theater at its finest.

Got back from the Dakotas a couple weeks back. We crossed the Sturgis rally for a day in Deadwood. The red and blue states are really diverging greatly in their approaches. Except to enter a national park or an airport, no one is wearing masks there. And in the airports we passed along the way lots of people cheating on their mask usage too. That's not to say people aren't jumpy...I'm suffering from long RSV and had a coughing fit outside of a steakhouse one night...the couple going inside totally scurried around me and gave me a look. Same for this guy coughing in the corner of the same restaurant (gotta admit even I got nervous). Mount Rushmore was interesting...packed and you could totally tell whose a blue stater and red stater there. We took a kayaking adventure and our guide thought we were crazy for basic precautions we were taking: eating outdoors when possible, making sure he was vaxxed, avoiding really packed locations like Wall Drugs and the Mount Rushmore gift shop. Here's a glimpse of Iowa from my son's favorite youtubers.


Saddest thing is we were in Deadwood the day Kabul fell. Guy at the desk was a veteran who had lost an arm there. It's 11 am and I got to the front desk and the guy totally jumps down my throat saying I'm way too early to check in. I explained I just needed the chain lowered so we could park the car since parking was full with the rally. He apologized and broke down into tears saying it was a really hard day for him.
 
Grace T. said:
If this trend holds the Gottlieb/booster approach will be a bust....it means our only choice would be the UK approach

www.timesofisrael.com

TV: 14 Israelis who got 3rd shot later infected with COVID-19

Limited data not enough to draw conclusions on booster's effectiveness; ministers said to fight over potential lockdown, restriction exemption for shuls
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com
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Further to this Israel is announcing that vaccine passports will be good only for 6 months (regardless of whether you catch covid in interim) from the last shot. If you go down the vaccine passport route the 2 approaches (uK/Gottlieb) become irreconcilable…you have to pick one. The us will likely offer a third option which is a red hot mess of conflicting policies since, given the recent Supreme Court ruling on rental eviction, it’s unlikely the cdc has the power to enforce a perpetual passport system and Congress is too divided to act…newsom recall may clarify things is he loses otherwise accelerates this division.
 
Grace T. said:
So now it has to be 90% vax rate (which is you count everyone, as you know is near impossible, since 12 and under can't get vaxxed).

As to the 70% adult vax rate...see below...Israel is on the verge of a lockdown despite masks, despite vaccines, and as I said, Canada will be the great experiment.
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If you don't like the 90% vax for 12+, take it up with Delta.

Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else get a vote in this. The 90% vax rate is just an estimate for what is necessary to drive R below 1.

You might as well complain about gravity. It will do you as much good.
 
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