Vaccine

Grace T. said:
I didn’t build that straw man. We on team reality didn’t come up with the messaging. The fact that team panic can’t even admit “yeah maybe the messaging was oversold” just shows how far the rabbit hole you guys are. If we can’t agree on that, when it just so obviously was the case, just shows we aren’t having a conversation about the science but just good old fashioned religion.

Here’s the other thing that’s got me going “hmmm”. For the longest time team panic was cowed here. Eotl was driven from the field. Gk mom no where to be seen. He of many aliases stopped doing aliases. It was basically just dad and the 2 trolls particularly around June when we thought, and dad even said, it would be over in a couple weeks. But now the aliases are back and we. Have a bunch of newbies sympathetic to team panic and even Mac Dre is lurking about. Go figure.
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"Team panic"? Strawman.

You're pathetic.
 
Roadrunner said:
With delta's ability to spread so readily, it can be difficult to get ahead of the infections.
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And that is the great myth that is unfortunately driving policy. You can't get ahead of the infections, you can't eliminate the virus, you can only hope to mitigate it. The cost in trying to eliminate the virus far outweighs any benefit (see lockdowns). Blanket policies that throw the healthy in with the sick, diminish the sicks's responsibility for the transmission. Studies have shown that asymptomatics only contribute to 17% to transmissions. Do you really want the sick that are spreading 83% of the cases thinking masks provide significant protection? 100% no, and the sick teacher spreading it to her students is Exhibit A. How much promotion of condoms would we see if they only filtered out 50% of guys' little swimmers? Let's be brutally honest about masks, and for F' sakes stop mandating them for children.
 
watfly said:
And that is the great myth that is unfortunately driving policy. You can't get ahead of the infections, you can't eliminate the virus, you can only hope to mitigate it. The cost in trying to eliminate the virus far outweighs any benefit (see lockdowns). Blanket policies that throw the healthy in with the sick, diminish the sicks's responsibility for the transmission. Studies have shown that asymptomatics only contribute to 17% to transmissions. Do you really want the sick that are spreading 83% of the cases thinking masks provide significant protection? 100% no, and the sick teacher spreading it to her students is Exhibit A. How much promotion of condoms would we see if they only filtered out 50% of guys' little swimmers? Let's be brutally honest about masks, and for F' sakes stop mandating them for children.
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New Zealand and australia are showing us that against the delta even hard lockdowns with troops in the streets and months of that isn’t working.
 
Roadrunner said:
SARS-cov1, SARS-cov2, and MERS are three different viruses. There are a lot of viruses out there, including a lot that are in the coronavirus family. These viruses do share some similarities, but are definitely different. Check out their sequences and encoded proteins, mechanism of entry, etc yourself if you are not convinced. The data is published and much is accessible to the general public. Not all retroviruses are HIV1, not all rhabdoviridae are rabies viruses, and not all picornavirus are the poliovirus.

But yes, it does seem that people can be easily manipulated.
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What am I not convinced about given your post?
 
Mosafie said:
It is indisputable at this point that vaccinated individuals are must less likely to be hospitalized have complications compared to unvaccinated individual.

As a healthcare worker I have seen plenty of patients get sicks then call me saying they should have been vaccinated. I have seen strokes, lung transplants, kidney failures, chronic fatigue. People that simoly dont function normally any more.

Everyone thinks their natural immune system is just fine until they get sick have a stroke, have kidney failure, or need a lung transplant.

All healthy people under the age of 60.

I am a lot more direct now. Stop being a stupid take the vaccine so you wont call me when its too late.

Sure you might survive but you might also have a stroke and have your kids changing your diapers for the rest of your life. Thats a faith worst than death.
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Yawn.
 
Grace T. said:
The argument isn’t only vaxxed v unvaxxed. The other argument is whether those previously infected with the Rona have sufficient protection and therefore don’t need the vax, need only a booster (and if so when). or need the whole course of treatment. The info that’s come out seems to indicate natural immunity is fairly robust. But of course if you haven’t had a symptomatic case, you should get vaxxed.
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Nearly 7 billion on planet earth and people question the immune system.
 
dad4 said:
They were trying to explain that reducing transmissibility lowers the threshold for herd immunity. If you misunderstand what that sentence means, you’re going to feel lied to.

They did start with talking about reducing transmission. They got millions of idiots who thought they were scientists posting and reposting youtube videos with chain link fences and cans of WD40. You were among them, and you all did real damage to public health.

You cant complain that the message was muddled if you were out there shouting over it.
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Like your case hyping.
 
Grace T. said:
New Zealand and australia are showing us that against the delta even hard lockdowns with troops in the streets and months of that isn’t working.
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Doesn't work and is punitive to the healthy and everything else non-Covid. If these two islands can't do it its a fools errand to think it will work anywhere else.
 
dad4 said:
Most of the mask messages I have seen have been in the “reduces but does not eliminate” category. (The others are straight up misinformation, like you see from Grace, Hound, or Dizzy.)

Not sure where you are seeing people say “mask = zero risk.”, but I completely agree that it is a dangerous oversimplification.
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dad4 said:
Masks reduce the probability of transmission. That’s all. They do not come close to eliminating transmission.
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Lol! This is why you get clowned.
 
Roadrunner said:
Very true. I would add that it would have really helped if the virus was only spread by symptomatic people, and it was clear that their symptoms were attributable to the virus. If we had great testing (easy, accessible,fast) and contract tracing in place, it would be another way people to know whether they were likely to spread the virus. With delta's ability to spread so readily, it can be difficult to get ahead of the infections.
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Paul Alexander, et al., warn against overreaction to the Delta variant. Here’s their conclusion:

We are hearing discussions now about renewed lockdowns and masking etc. due to the Delta variant which has emerged as one of the weakest in terms of lethality while being very transmissible. This greatly concerns us. We are horrified by this prospect and we have shown you the actual data as it relates to Delta, and not the contrived drivel and unscientific nonsense spouted by the mainstream media and the public health experts. There is absolutely no good reason to reenter lockdowns and school closures or masking in response to the Delta variant. We find no evidence that this variant warrants masks in children. We leave you with the words of Donald Henderson:

“Experience has shown that communities faced with epidemics or other adverse events respond best and with the least anxiety when the normal social functioning of the community is least disrupted. Strong political and public health leadership to provide reassurance and to ensure that needed medical care services are provided are critical elements. If either is seen to be less than optimal, a manageable epidemic could move toward catastrophe.”
 
watfly said:
And that is the great myth that is unfortunately driving policy. You can't get ahead of the infections, you can't eliminate the virus, you can only hope to mitigate it. The cost in trying to eliminate the virus far outweighs any benefit (see lockdowns). Blanket policies that throw the healthy in with the sick, diminish the sicks's responsibility for the transmission. Studies have shown that asymptomatics only contribute to 17% to transmissions. Do you really want the sick that are spreading 83% of the cases thinking masks provide significant protection? 100% no, and the sick teacher spreading it to her students is Exhibit A. How much promotion of condoms would we see if they only filtered out 50% of guys' little swimmers? Let's be brutally honest about masks, and for F' sakes stop mandating them for children.
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I take it you're done complaining about the lack of message clarity, and have returned to your main job of obfuscating the message.

The message is not simply "stay home if you are sick". The school districts already put out that message. They even give us checklists and have us mark the checklist every morning: "Time for school. Come on, kids. Get zapped."

Guess what? Some fraction of symptomatic people go to school anyway. They think it is a cold, or allergies. Or they never noticed the fever, because they forgot to take their temperature. And there they are in a room with 18 to 30 other people. Maybe they shouldn't be there, but they are.

And, if you have your way, they are also unvaccinated and unmasked.
 
dad4 said:
I take it you're done complaining about the lack of message clarity, and have returned to your main job of obfuscating the message.

The message is not simply "stay home if you are sick". The school districts already put out that message. They even give us checklists and have us mark the checklist every morning: "Time for school. Come on, kids. Get zapped."

Guess what? Some fraction of symptomatic people go to school anyway. They think it is a cold, or allergies. Or they never noticed the fever, because they forgot to take their temperature. And there they are in a room with 18 to 30 other people. Maybe they shouldn't be there, but they are.

And, if you have your way, they are also unvaccinated and unmasked.
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...and then what?
 
met61 said:
...and then what?
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Better question is "what will you do when we don't"?

I don't see much evidence that Delta can spread within a masked vaccinated population. The Martha's Vineyard experiment seems to say "no".

That is not, of course, the population we have.
 
dad4 said:
I take it you're done complaining about the lack of message clarity, and have returned to your main job of obfuscating the message.

The message is not simply "stay home if you are sick". The school districts already put out that message. They even give us checklists and have us mark the checklist every morning: "Time for school. Come on, kids. Get zapped."

Guess what? Some fraction of symptomatic people go to school anyway. They think it is a cold, or allergies. Or they never noticed the fever, because they forgot to take their temperature. And there they are in a room with 18 to 30 other people. Maybe they shouldn't be there, but they are.

And, if you have your way, they are also unvaccinated and unmasked.
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How'd did those masks work for the children in that teacher's class? I'm not anti-mask for children, I'm anti mask mandates for children, I'm pro-choice and pro-truth about masks (aka they provide limited protection against the virus). I'm very pro-vaccine and pro-natural immunity, as natural immunity provides significantly better immunity than vaccination.

There are many ways to tackle the pandemic besides masks and vaccines, but we have to be rational about the fact we can't stop the virus. Our goals have to be rational and reasonable, and have to go beyond myopic thinking by including cost/benefit/risk analysis. Btw there is nothing rational about making unvaccinated kids get tested twice a week to play outdoors sports. Which means every kid under 12. Insanity.
 
dad4 said:
Better question is "what will you do when we don't"?

I don't see much evidence that Delta can spread within a masked vaccinated population. The Martha's Vineyard experiment seems to say "no".

That is not, of course, the population we have.
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Israel Hawaii and Iceland beg to disagree. You’ll explain those away no doubt. But we have the great experiment underway: Canada with some provinces with very high vaccination and as of a week ago almost all have mask mandates back in place, while they are also no moving into season.
 
watfly said:
How'd did those masks work for the children in that teacher's class? I'm not anti-mask for children, I'm anti mask mandates for children, I'm pro-choice and pro-truth about masks (aka they provide limited protection against the virus). I'm very pro-vaccine and pro-natural immunity, as natural immunity provides significantly better immunity than vaccination.

There are many ways to tackle the pandemic besides masks and vaccines, but we have to be rational about the fact we can't stop the virus. Our goals have to be rational and reasonable, and have to go beyond myopic thinking by including cost/benefit/risk analysis. Btw there is nothing rational about making unvaccinated kids get tested twice a week to play outdoors sports. Which means every kid under 12. Insanity.
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The children in masks were less likely to spread the virus to other people. As advertised.

What did you think the masks were for? They are source control, not PPE.

If you look at the class map, it's a clear explanation for why moderate distance is not a substitute for masking. The nine kids closest to the teacher all got it. Neither 3 nor 6 feet was protective.
 
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