Vaccine

watfly said:
It wouldn't have given me any heartburn to close cruise ships in April 2020. Like I said I give the first couple of months' policies a mulligan, including school closures. Maybe its more correct for me to say I opposed lockdowns that lasted more than the first couple of months.

However, you seem to make the assumption that without government intervention that their would have been no protocols followed by business. That couldn't have been farther from the truth as evidenced by essential businesses that took significant precautions even if they weren't mandated to do so. We were an essential business (although I'd argue far less essential than schools) we took precautions beyond what was required. Restaurants were more than willing to take the business outside if allowed among other precautions to remain open. Were there some businesses that might not have done so, sure those businesses that are not reputable and don't understand risk management. That happened whether they were forced by the government or not to close. Plenty of non-essential businesses open during the lockdowns, some who lived paycheck to paycheck had no choice, like many hairdressers.

I'm fairly confident that cruise ships would have delayed trips in the early months of the pandemic for risk management purposes, they didn't need the negative publicity of mass infections or deaths on their ships. A prudent business policy would have been a requirement for passengers to provide a negative Covid test.

To sum it up your apparent assumption is that businesses would have done nothing without government intervention to protect customers and employees is erroneous.

Your dependent on the government for your livelihood, so you sound more comfortable with government intervention into others lives as a result. Government and particularly bureaucrats are often a hindrance in my livelihood, so that's why we sound like were from different planets. Reality is that were just from different backgrounds.
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Tough living in a society with all the rules and laws and such. Price of doing business.
 
watfly said:
It wouldn't have given me any heartburn to close cruise ships in April 2020. Like I said I give the first couple of months' policies a mulligan, including school closures. Maybe its more correct for me to say I opposed lockdowns that lasted more than the first couple of months.

However, you seem to make the assumption that without government intervention that their would have been no protocols followed by business. That couldn't have been farther from the truth as evidenced by essential businesses that took significant precautions even if they weren't mandated to do so. We were an essential business (although I'd argue far less essential than schools) we took precautions beyond what was required. Restaurants were more than willing to take the business outside if allowed among other precautions to remain open. Were there some businesses that might not have done so, sure those businesses that are not reputable and don't understand risk management. That happened whether they were forced by the government or not to close. Plenty of non-essential businesses open during the lockdowns, some who lived paycheck to paycheck had no choice, like many hairdressers.

I'm fairly confident that cruise ships would have delayed trips in the early months of the pandemic for risk management purposes, they didn't need the negative publicity of mass infections or deaths on their ships. A prudent business policy would have been a requirement for passengers to provide a negative Covid test.

To sum it up your apparent assumption is that businesses would have done nothing without government intervention to protect customers and employees is erroneous.

Your dependent on the government for your livelihood, so you sound more comfortable with government intervention into others lives as a result. Government and particularly bureaucrats are often a hindrance in my livelihood, so that's why we sound like were from different planets. Reality is that were just from different backgrounds.
Click to expand...
I agree that the cruise lines would have closed as soon as the lawyers realized that the liability risk from transmission was higher than the liability risk from cancelling people's vacations.

But this is still a heavy handed government body forcing the issue. The court system is also a government bureaucracy. Courts are just a worse way to create rules.

At least with administrative bodies, they try to tell you the rules before you have to follow them. Legal liability cases are not so kind. The courts can clarify the rules long after you already made your decision.
 
Hüsker Dü said:
Tough living in a society with all the rules and laws and such. Price of doing business.
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Huge difference between rules and laws vs. the government picking winners and losers by closing businesses. Also a huge difference between good faith laws and arbitrary ones or ones based upon an unlikely occurrence.

There is a dramatic difference in perspective when you sign the front of payroll checks vs. the back of them.

dad4 said:
I agree that the cruise lines would have closed as soon as the lawyers realized that the liability risk from transmission was higher than the liability risk from cancelling people's vacations.

But this is still a heavy handed government body forcing the issue. The court system is also a government bureaucracy. Courts are just a worse way to create rules.

At least with administrative bodies, they try to tell you the rules before you have to follow them. Legal liability cases are not so kind. The courts can clarify the rules long after you already made your decision.
Click to expand...
The CDC rules for cruise ships (once they were allowed to reopen) were actually guidance and not technically mandatory, but you were wise to follow them.
 
watfly said:
Huge difference between rules and laws vs. the government picking winners and losers by closing businesses. Also a huge difference between good faith laws and arbitrary ones or ones based upon an unlikely occurrence.

There is a dramatic difference in perspective when you sign the front of payroll checks vs. the back of them.


The CDC rules for cruise ships (once they were allowed to reopen) were actually guidance and not technically mandatory, but you were wise to follow them.
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You know it's hard out here for a pimp . . .
 
watfly said:
Huge difference between rules and laws vs. the government picking winners and losers by closing businesses. Also a huge difference between good faith laws and arbitrary ones or ones based upon an unlikely occurrence.

There is a dramatic difference in perspective when you sign the front of payroll checks vs. the back of them.


The CDC rules for cruise ships (once they were allowed to reopen) were actually guidance and not technically mandatory, but you were wise to follow them.
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I don’t see much daylight between “mandatory” and “guidance, but liability will bankrupt you if you don’t.”

Either way, the government is deciding what needs to close.

For that matter, when there is no guidance, but the courts claim the right to assess multi-million dollar damages, the government is still deciding what to close. They’re just doing it after the fact.
 
If true, this moves it from the private actor sphere into the government sphere and is a clear violation of the first amendment.

freebeacon.com

How the CDC Coordinated With Big Tech To Censor Americans

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention coordinated with social media companies and Google to censor users who expressed skepticism or criticism of COVID-19 vaccines, according to internal communications obtained by America First Legal and shared exclusively with the Washington Free Beacon.
freebeacon.com freebeacon.com

And if true....seriously how much worse can the govt response (or at least the perception of it) get.....if we are going to be prepared for the next one, they'll have to burn it to the ground and start over but I don't think we'll get that from the current President (however long he may last in the job).
 
The US is about to declare a public health emergency for monkeypox. The declaration would authorize state depts of health to do the same, thereby given them the extraordinary powers to rule by decree we've seen with COVID.

Given the failure of public health to contain it, and given that it's eventually going to break into the mainstream even as a standard STD, prediction: people with kids in elementary and middle school right now will be required to smallpox vaccinated before attending college.
 
Also a political note: Yang and a few other former Ds and Rs (nevertrumpers) are getting ready to announce a new political party called "Forward". Who knows if it will go the way of other third parties such as Reform when Perot left, but their hope is to form a Macron like center. My opinion is it misreads the times: it appeals to the establishmentarians who are under seige from both sides and will hasten the transformation of the R party into America First. It will cut more heavily into the Ds since the shift from D to R (particularly among minority voters) has been among the working class (Asians perhaps excepted). They won't be able to run away from the Ds since many of these people were very pro COVID restrictions and are also pro climate change activism. Macron only worked because he was able to play France first and the far left against one another in a two cycle vote.

www.reuters.com

Former Republicans and Democrats form new third U.S. political party

Dozens of former Republican and Democratic officials announced on Wednesday a new national political third party to appeal to millions of voters they say are dismayed with what they see as America's dysfunctional two-party system.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
Grace T. said:
Also a political note: Yang and a few other former Ds and Rs (nevertrumpers) are getting ready to announce a new political party called "Forward". Who knows if it will go the way of other third parties such as Reform when Perot left, but their hope is to form a Macron like center. My opinion is it misreads the times: it appeals to the establishmentarians who are under seige from both sides and will hasten the transformation of the R party into America First. It will cut more heavily into the Ds since the shift from D to R (particularly among minority voters) has been among the working class (Asians perhaps excepted). They won't be able to run away from the Ds since many of these people were very pro COVID restrictions and are also pro climate change activism. Macron only worked because he was able to play France first and the far left against one another in a two cycle vote.

www.reuters.com

Former Republicans and Democrats form new third U.S. political party

Dozens of former Republican and Democratic officials announced on Wednesday a new national political third party to appeal to millions of voters they say are dismayed with what they see as America's dysfunctional two-party system.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
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Any thoughts on what direction Tulsi Gabbard will go?
 
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