Vaccine

[dad4]

okay, I’ll walk you through it but you are pretty bright so I think you’re being lazy…Fauci himself said with vaccination the country would reach herd immunity when we get to 75-85%vaccination. Then our mighty leader, Biden, jumped in and told the country that this was an epidemic of the unvaccinated.

So the previous post, explained pretty clearly, that the original intent of the vaccination was to stop the spread and bring herd immunity. Now jump to June 2022, and as you can see by the graph below, that vaccinated and boosted actually are being infected more than just vaccinated and unvaccinated. So the logic would seem that since vaccinated and boosted are the ones that are getting Covid more than both the other groups they have a higher probability of transmitting. Is that hard to follow?Seems pretty logical, but that wasn’t even the original argument…the point was Fauci and the White House pushed the vaxx so the spread would stop…they were wrong, once again pretty simple. Funny how certain facts seem to slip the mind of those that defended those that were so wrong at the beginning of this whole thing.

how does it go…fool me once, shame on you…fool me twice, shame on me…fool me 5 times,
but you can keep acting like you don’t get it

Fauci Predicts U.S. Could See Signs Of Herd Immunity By Late March Or Early April

Dr. Fauci said once the vaccine becomes widely available, if by "April, May, June, July, we get as many people vaccinated as possible, we could really turn this thing around" by the end of 2021.

www.npr.org

View attachment 13947

Nice graph that ignores age. Boosters are far more common among the elderly.

How does this support the post you’re supposed to be defending? You know, the one which claimed that one 80 year old man catching covid is proof that vaccines to not reduce your ability to transmit covid?

Even if I grant the entire BS graoh you just posted, it still only makes a claim about vaccinated people’s ability to get infected. It says nothing about their ability to transmit,

 

[EvilGoalie 21]

I think the positive thing is that there does seem to be a general overall acceptance at this point that the western vaccines are effective at blunting severe symptomatic C19 infection and death. There's not much argument anymore.

The case incidence thing keeps going around. I've said a real critique is that the promise of rapid vaxx updates to keep pace with evolving variants has not been realized (not putting it in past tense so no jinx). The original virus had a R value of about 2. Omicron evolved to be around R 10-11, making it one of the fastest replicating and most infectious viruses that we know about. And the S protein-the vaxx target-has undergone considerable antigenic drift since the vaccines were rolled out in late 2020. That said, its actually remarkable that the vaxx, especially with booster to get circulating antibody titers up, held up as well as it did against the omicron tsunami.

One thing about the graph that was just posted I don't get. I don't think boosters were approved until late Aug of 2021. Of course it all kind of bIurs together at this point. But if that's right, I'm not sure how you can have a vaxx plus booster trend line going all the way back to the delta wave on that graph. The other thing I'd note is that some of the dust up about case rates by vaxx status, like the April data that was posted earlier, are from low case periods-the troughs between the waves. When case/100K are in the low 100s. Without CIs on those low end numbers its hard to know what they mean, if anything. Could just be scatter.

Here is what the CDC has for case/100K during omicron broken out by vaxx status. Its consistent with what was observed in close to real time by local health agencies in large population centers here in the states and with data from London, across the UK and Europe.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status

 

[soccersc]

Nice graph that ignores age. Boosters are far more common among the elderly.

How does this support the post you’re supposed to be defending? You know, the one which claimed that one 80 year old man catching covid is proof that vaccines to not reduce your ability to transmit covid?

Even if I grant the entire BS graoh you just posted, it still only makes a claim about vaccinated people’s ability to get infected. It says nothing about their ability to transmit,

what is your point of who is getting boosted, old or young doesn’t matter, point is boosted people have a higher rate of infection.

The graph makes no claim about ability to get infected? Haha what? I guess uninflected people are transmitting, that is logical, much more logical than the original claim that the vaxx was first pushed on people because it was suppose to stop the spread…that makes sense

ArcGIS Dashboards

ArcGIS Dashboards

ochca.maps.arcgis.com

 

[Kicker 2.0]

"Herd immunity" is the most abused and misunderstood term in this whole adventure.

No, that honor goes to the word “vaccine”.

 

[EvilGoalie 21]

what is your point of who is getting boosted, old or young doesn’t matter, point is boosted people have a higher rate of infection.

ArcGIS Dashboards

ArcGIS Dashboards

ochca.maps.arcgis.com

Thanks for posting the link to the graph. If you look point by point on the yellow boosted line for the Orange County data it's flat lined at 0 until early fall 2021, when boosted data would have become available. so their software must just plot it at 0 starting at whatever the y-axis intercept is. But why do you think that graph shows that boosted people have a higher rate of infection? Boosted is 136.5 per 100K peak omicron; unvaxx is 394.2 per 100K peak omicron.

 

[soccersc]

Thanks for posting the link to the graph. If you look point by point on the yellow boosted line for the Orange County data it's flat lined at 0 until early fall 2021, when boosted data would have become available. so their software must just plot it at 0 starting at whatever the y-axis intercept is. But why do you think that graph shows that boosted people have a higher rate of infection? Boosted is 136.5 per 100K peak omicron; unvaxx is 394.2 per 100K peak omicron.

I’m not sure where those numbers are from…I was referencing 7 day case rate by vaccination status and fully vaccinated and boosted have the highest case rate since April according to the OCDPH

 

[EvilGoalie 21]

I’m not sure where those numbers are from…I was referencing 7 day case rate by vaccination status and fully vaccinated and boosted have the highest case rate since April according to the OCDPH

Here's an annotated look at ~ the last year of the OCDPH data (same link as earlier, my annotation). My "boosters" arrows is when boosters became available just before omicon hit. The time frame for the April data is circled. It gets to what I was trying to say earlier. April was a period of relatively low CoV-2. May is bumping up a bit but if we keep these low oscillations it may mean omicron won the battle within the variant swarm and is becoming our new endemic C-virus. All things considered, that would be OK. So are differences in case rate depending on vaxx status during low covid intervals like April meaningful or are they just scatter? Without some kind of error measurement superimposed on the data its hard to know. When the lines converge like that I tend to think its likely to be about as predictive as the "which U9 team is going to take it all this year" forecasts. But when a Cov2 shit storm hits like with omicron the real differences become apparent. Do most of these public health agencies or the CDC provide confidence intervals on their public graphing platforms? No. If they took a cue from government climate data sites that have been playing this game longer they probably should, although if you download the actual tables from the MMWR reports that the CDC publishes those +/- values are there. But the more telling thing to me is the pattern you see in the Orange County data during the omicron wave +/- vaxx + booster was reproduced around the western world.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

"Herd immunity" is the most abused and misunderstood term in this whole adventure.

I'll say "risk" is the most misunderstood and "children" have been the most abused.

 

[EvilGoalie 21]

"Herd immunity" is the most abused and misunderstood term in this whole adventure.

Yeah, not a very useful term. People think it means beat the virus instead of strike a balance with the virus.

But my vote for the most counterproductive term goes to Zero Covid. It sounds like a diet softdrink. Now that Jolt is gone we need something to take its place. "Twice the caffeine, none of the virus."

 

[Happened again]

A vaccine makes your body react to the virus more quickly. This reduces the time period over which you are capable of infecting others.

and how has this worked out for the current batch of goodies from the pharma bros?

 

[dad4]

and how has this worked out for the current batch of goodies from the pharma bros?

I think the big money is from chronic disease. My guess is that the direct money from vaccines is small compared to the indirect profits from keeping their diabetes and heart disease patients alive for another few years.

12 extra months of dialysis is worth a whole lot more than 4 shots of an mRNA vaccine.

 

[soccersc]

A vaccine makes your body react to the virus more quickly. This reduces the time period over which you are capable of infecting others.

But if you don’t know you are infected and go out and spread it, it really doesn’t matter how fast the time period is…one day is all it takes and you could be infecting a whole lot of people, you just don’t know

 

[Grace T.]

But if you don’t know you are infected and go out and spread it, it really doesn’t matter how fast the time period is…one day is all it takes and you could be infecting a whole lot of people, you just don’t know

He's always been stuck in 3 dimensional thinking. The other thing is if everyone is eventually going to get it (multiple times) the total number of people over time that get it (barring a miraculous disappearance one day) remains the same. It's just evened out over time into smaller bumps instead of huge waves, which is in fact what we are seeing with the omicron bursts, as the virus goes through various evolutionary phases. Over a long enough time line, for example, everyone is going to catch the flu 18x in a lifetime. The flu shot may reduce that to 12x particularly if you build immunity by taking it every year. And that's with a flu shot you get yearly and is specifically targeted to predicted variants, which we may or may not ever get with COVID since it seems to evolve much more quickly and we don't know where the bottom (if ever) is. The COVID, shot, by contrast is against an older strain and the efficacy against contagion declines towards zero with time after every shot. Of like chicken pox before the vaccine...everyone eventually got it.

 

[Happened again]

I think the big money is from chronic disease. My guess is that the direct money from vaccines is small compared to the indirect profits from keeping their diabetes and heart disease patients alive for another few years.

12 extra months of dialysis is worth a whole lot more than 4 shots of an mRNA vaccine.

sure, chronic disease is the big money maker but pharma is all about multiple streams. 2021 saw about 34B in pre tax profit across the big 3 vaccine makers. not bad spending money. Boosters, expansion of age groups, mutation and hype will ensure mrna spending money for years to come.

And not to take anything away from the effectivness of the vaccine within specific demographics, but that's not how it was sold. Healthy or not, vaccines for all..everyone went right along, even after clear data was in that not everyone needed one. Drive the dollars home.

but yes, heart disease treatment drives the train with pharma, nothing will top bad cholesterol .

 

[dad4]

sure, chronic disease is the big money maker but pharma is all about multiple streams. 2021 saw about 34B in pre tax profit across the big 3 vaccine makers. not bad spending money. Boosters, expansion of age groups, mutation and hype will ensure mrna spending money for years to come.

And not to take anything away from the effectivness of the vaccine within specific demographics, but that's not how it was sold. Healthy or not, vaccines for all..everyone went right along, even after clear data was in that not everyone needed one. Drive the dollars home.

but yes, heart disease treatment drives the train with pharma, nothing will top bad cholesterol .

You make it sound like a giant conspiracy. The vaccines saved millions of lives worldwide. Part of what saved those lives was reduced transmission among people who were themselves at a low risk.

Moderna and Pfizer made some money in the process. So what?

There is a decent argument about the lack of updated boosters. Other than that, you’re just throwing stones at the fire department after the fire is mostly out.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

I imagine this is a vision of COVID mandate nirvana for @dad4 - just kidding dad. Pretty interesting read.

---

In fact, the residential compound where I was staying with my parents was about to be sealed off for the best part of two months as the virus worked its way through its 21 stories and 300 inhabitants.

Covid could seemingly pass between the floors and walls and the realization even the strongest measures couldn't stop it was terrifying and shocking. Each time a single person tested positive, the lockdown was extended another 14 days.

Many of us responded by becoming model Chinese citizens, volunteering to disinfect the estate and help distribute food and essential goods -- all of which had to be delivered -- directly to people's doors.

And the volunteers sanitized with a vengeance, lugging around 30-kilogram (66-pound) tubs of chemicals and donning full hazmat suits to douse in disinfectant every incoming package, every nook and cranny.

By the time they had finished, the building was so awash with chemicals that some of my neighbors' touchscreen electronic door locks had corroded and stopped working.

This might have helped ease people's nerves, but there's little evidence it did anything to stop the virus spreading.

---

Shanghai surprise: How I survived 70 days confinement in the world's strictest Covid lockdown | CNN

In Hong Kong, Omicron was running amok, but in Shanghai cases were still in the single digits and with China's iron-fisted approach to infections it seemed reasonable to think things would stay that way. That was my first mistake.

www.cnn.com

 

[dad4]

I imagine this is a vision of COVID mandate nirvana for @dad4 - just kidding dad. Pretty interesting read.

---

In fact, the residential compound where I was staying with my parents was about to be sealed off for the best part of two months as the virus worked its way through its 21 stories and 300 inhabitants.

Covid could seemingly pass between the floors and walls and the realization even the strongest measures couldn't stop it was terrifying and shocking. Each time a single person tested positive, the lockdown was extended another 14 days.

Many of us responded by becoming model Chinese citizens, volunteering to disinfect the estate and help distribute food and essential goods -- all of which had to be delivered -- directly to people's doors.

And the volunteers sanitized with a vengeance, lugging around 30-kilogram (66-pound) tubs of chemicals and donning full hazmat suits to douse in disinfectant every incoming package, every nook and cranny.

By the time they had finished, the building was so awash with chemicals that some of my neighbors' touchscreen electronic door locks had corroded and stopped working.

This might have helped ease people's nerves, but there's little evidence it did anything to stop the virus spreading.

---

Shanghai surprise: How I survived 70 days confinement in the world's strictest Covid lockdown | CNN

In Hong Kong, Omicron was running amok, but in Shanghai cases were still in the single digits and with China's iron-fisted approach to infections it seemed reasonable to think things would stay that way. That was my first mistake.

www.cnn.com

Not the first time CCP has gone overboard on something.

At least this time it’s less damaging than when Mao decided he was the world’s foremost agricultural expert.

 

[Desert Hound]

I imagine this is a vision of COVID mandate nirvana for @dad4 - just kidding dad. Pretty interesting read.

---

In fact, the residential compound where I was staying with my parents was about to be sealed off for the best part of two months as the virus worked its way through its 21 stories and 300 inhabitants.

Covid could seemingly pass between the floors and walls and the realization even the strongest measures couldn't stop it was terrifying and shocking. Each time a single person tested positive, the lockdown was extended another 14 days.

Many of us responded by becoming model Chinese citizens, volunteering to disinfect the estate and help distribute food and essential goods -- all of which had to be delivered -- directly to people's doors.

And the volunteers sanitized with a vengeance, lugging around 30-kilogram (66-pound) tubs of chemicals and donning full hazmat suits to douse in disinfectant every incoming package, every nook and cranny.

By the time they had finished, the building was so awash with chemicals that some of my neighbors' touchscreen electronic door locks had corroded and stopped working.

This might have helped ease people's nerves, but there's little evidence it did anything to stop the virus spreading.

---

Shanghai surprise: How I survived 70 days confinement in the world's strictest Covid lockdown | CNN

In Hong Kong, Omicron was running amok, but in Shanghai cases were still in the single digits and with China's iron-fisted approach to infections it seemed reasonable to think things would stay that way. That was my first mistake.

www.cnn.com

He per usual missed the point.

Despite being locked down, not allowed to go out, the virus ripped through that compound.

Lockdowns and masks dont work.

We are paying the price for it now.

We would be in a much better spot if we had not shut everything down, closed schools, etc.

 

[watfly]

I imagine this is a vision of COVID mandate nirvana for @dad4 - just kidding dad. Pretty interesting read.

---

In fact, the residential compound where I was staying with my parents was about to be sealed off for the best part of two months as the virus worked its way through its 21 stories and 300 inhabitants.

Covid could seemingly pass between the floors and walls and the realization even the strongest measures couldn't stop it was terrifying and shocking. Each time a single person tested positive, the lockdown was extended another 14 days.

Many of us responded by becoming model Chinese citizens, volunteering to disinfect the estate and help distribute food and essential goods -- all of which had to be delivered -- directly to people's doors.

And the volunteers sanitized with a vengeance, lugging around 30-kilogram (66-pound) tubs of chemicals and donning full hazmat suits to douse in disinfectant every incoming package, every nook and cranny.

By the time they had finished, the building was so awash with chemicals that some of my neighbors' touchscreen electronic door locks had corroded and stopped working.

This might have helped ease people's nerves, but there's little evidence it did anything to stop the virus spreading.

---

Shanghai surprise: How I survived 70 days confinement in the world's strictest Covid lockdown | CNN

In Hong Kong, Omicron was running amok, but in Shanghai cases were still in the single digits and with China's iron-fisted approach to infections it seemed reasonable to think things would stay that way. That was my first mistake.

www.cnn.com

We quarantined healthy people, how stupid do you have to be? They were effectively sitting ducks. We threw out years of medical knowledge in regards to quarantines, masks etc out of fear and in the name of "doing something". Stay at home orders should have been "get out and get fresh air" orders. Instead we banned people from beaches, parks and other public spaces. Remember Newsom's totally unscientific tier system that prevented kids from getting out and playing with their peers? Fortunately, their was the recall or the tier system would have lasted much longer. It would be one thing if this were in 20/20 hindsight, but many were calling it as it happened.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Not the first time CCP has gone overboard on something.

At least this time it’s less damaging than when Mao decided he was the world’s foremost agricultural expert.

I appreciate the humor but there is an important point in your first sentence. The trouble with having the power to impose things that are "overboard" is that, inevitably, the power is used to impose things that are overboard.