Vaccine

watfly said:
Your points in regards to fuel costs are primarily short term related. There is very little doubt by energy professionals that in the long term, eliminating projects like the Keystone pipeline, which contributes to energy independence, will have a negative long term impact on supply and the resulting costs.

It defies logic that having more control over our energy and less reliance on the Middle East is a "meh" thing. Is it a panacea for all our ills, no, but its a very powerful element. Having national control over what is arguably the #1 world commodity (I'd actually say water is #1) is not a minor thing.

In terms of "dog whistle" goes, you strike me as a moderate guy that wouldn't use the gimmicks of the far left which uses the term to mischaracterize the words of the right, often to cast reasonable arguments in a pejorative light.
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Keystone would have made more sense if it had stopped at the Chicago refineries.

Going all the way to the Louisiana export terminals makes it clear that the goal had nothing to do with energy independence.
 
watfly said:
Your points in regards to fuel costs are primarily short term related. There is very little doubt by energy professionals that in the long term, eliminating projects like the Keystone pipeline, which contributes to energy independence, will have a negative long term impact on supply and the resulting costs.

It defies logic that having more control over our energy and less reliance on the Middle East is a "meh" thing. Is it a panacea for all our ills, no, but its a very powerful element. Having national control over what is arguably the #1 world commodity (I'd actually say water is #1) is not a minor thing.

In terms of "dog whistle" goes, you strike me as a moderate guy that wouldn't use the gimmicks of the far left which uses the term to mischaracterize the words of the right, often to cast reasonable arguments in a pejorative light.
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Keystone is moving crude from CA to TX for refinery. Oil refined in the gulf is used domestically and also exported, where its cheaper to export (to MX for example) than ship to the East coast. If CA built their own refineries, it would be moot, but its (currently) cheaper to sent it to TX.

On the ME thing, we get very little from there.
  • The top five sources of U.S. total petroleum (including crude oil) imports by share of total petroleum imports in 2020 were
  • Canada52%
  • Mexico11%
  • Russia7%
  • Saudi Arabia7%
  • Colombia4%
  • The top five sources of U.S. crude oil imports by share of total crude oil imports in 2020 were
  • Canada61%
  • Mexico11%
  • Saudi Arabia8%
  • Colombia4%
  • Iraq3%

Agree, water is #1.

Everyone uses gimmicks. All gimmicks are used to stir an emotional reaction and not a fact based reaction. The cries about importing from the ME and therefore needing to be energy independent is an example of dog whistling to me. The facts are that we are not reliant on ME oil anymore. We still import it, but its a small %.
 
Desert Hound said:
See that is where you are wrong.

They are using gimmicks like gov usually does. The taxes will be around for at least 10 yrs. Much of the spending items are for far fewer years.

So by saying the whole thing is over 10 yrs it makes it look better. What you have is front loaded spending but taxes going on far longer. It hides the cost so to speak. Most people fall for that shell game.


That kind of is the point. Without our own supply, we would be paying more. Fracking forces the other countries to lower their prices. That is a benefit to us.

And while the Saudis, etc can drop the price to lower than $50 to make fracking not terribly viable, they themselves cannot afford to do so for long because they have built in a cost structure to their countries that require X amount of revenue to pay for. In short their funding for their programs assumes a price above $50 (at which fracking is viable).

The other thing about fracking is that it is relatively new. Over time they will get more efficient at what they are doing, and their break even point will go down.


Canada is a country where we should import from. Better to get from them then to limit ourselves, and then turn around and increase our spending on countries in the ME.



To be fair much of what the dems call infrastructure in their plan is not infrastructure as we know it. They use the term in order to sell it.

And it works. Watch the people talk about it. They talk bridges, etc. And your average person thinks yeah we need that. And yet much of what is in there is not infrastructure. It is another shell game to put in place a wish list that progressives have been pushing for many years.

Here are some of the items in the "infrastructure bill"

- extended child care credit
- universal pre-k
- paid family leave
- expand obamacare
- expand medicare
- free community college
- let medicare negotiate drug prices
etc etc

And so on. That stuff should not be in an infrastructure bill because it doesn't have anything to do with infrastructure as we know it.

The above items should be in their own bill and called what they are.

Now things are in flux because there are pushback in certain areas. So you will see stuff, dropped, etc.

Then of course you have the tax side of it which has a plethora of issues.
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Sure, gimmicks, everyone uses gimmicks. Everyone sells based on what they think appeals to you and ignores the crap you'd be turned off on.

For the infrastructure bill, I already said there is good/bad in it, that's the nature of every bill TBH irrespective of who brings it. It went from $3.5T to $1.5T to whatever its at now. Its boring TBH. The Ds should start breaking it up to get some wins. They should do it in small pieces and pass it month after month to build a story of governing and investing and confidence in their ability. They won't and they will pay the price. My 0.02.
 
Random thoughts on the topics at hand:

QE kept rates artificially low. However, the level of inflation we're seeing now is not healthy. It's a effectively a tax on everyone, with the biggest burden on those that can least afford it. When my carne asada burrito is $10 I know inflation is out of control.

It's not that Dem's don't have some good ideas, it's just that there good ideas are often way down the priority list. And often those good ideas negatively impact the items of higher priority. The Dem's try to tell you that you should be concerned about y over x, but only the kool-aid drinkers fall for that. Wasn't it Carville that said "it's the economy stupid". We may have to add "and don't F with kids" to that quote.

Character matters. Trump is a thin-skinned asshole, but let's not pretend that Biden is a bastion of honesty and accountability. Now in his defense he may not know he is lying either due to his obvious cognitive decline, or the fact his puppet masters only give him so much information, or a combination of both.

My wife's uncle is in a nursing home and is now seriously ill with Covid. He is vaccinated as are the other nursing home residents, despite this, 15 other residents have Covid. Remind me again how effective the vaccination is against infection and why we should discriminate against those that are unvaccinated, but previously infected.
 
MicPaPa said:
I prefer: God gives you what you need, not necessarily what you want.

You are certainly free to interpret the Virginia bellwether election however you choose, but we obviously read it quite differently. I don’t put much stock in polls, especially those conducted by legacy media, but for the purpose of my point I selected a random Virginia CBS affiliate. This is what they listed as the top voter issues in Virginia’s gubernatorial election:

economy 34%
covid-19 17%
education 14%
healthcare 7%
climate change 7%
racism 5%
immigration 5%
abortion 5%
law enforcement 4%

Understanding their list ended there, I cannot disprove your insistence that personality/manners/vulgarity/meanness/hurtful tweets etc. etc. etc. matters, but I can say with confidence that it mattered somewhere between 10th-? to Virginia voters.

I could care less about Trump personally, in fact, you can put me down as “personality 0%”, but you can also put me down as 100% for how Trump handled the above list. It’s not who he is, it’s what he brings to the table at a time we need it. The left and their water boys in the media/big tech are on the march to destroy this country as it was founded. It is clear to many of us that the McCains, Romneys, Jeds!, and even the Youngkins are not going to get it done. Thus, you got what we needed, not what you wanted.
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Trump wasn't on the ballot in Virginia. He wisely stayed away. Youngkin didn't have any glaring personal issues. There are two separate issues:

1) should character count in selecting the nation's leader...I'm agnostic on this, though I do think given the President does some flag waiving it is of some (but not overarching) importance. It's a rational position to say it should count as 0%...but only if you give it a pass for both sides (otherwise you are just doing the partisan warrior thing)...that means Clinton and his lady friends shouldn't have been part of the conversation if you are consistent.

2) does character in fact count in selecting the nation's leader. You are one out of millions of voters....unfortunately for you the reality is that for many people it does matter. How much does it matter? The way to probably think about it is as power boost in a video game....a positive boost (such as winning a war a la Eisenhower or Collin Powell) might get you a bonus on top of the issues but can't save you from a very negative position....a negative penalty can sink you particularly if you have a good opponent (or in Biden's case one that chose to use COVID to hide in the basement and then just be a blank slate to everyone). The reality is Trump is toxic so he'd be going into 2024 with an overwhelming negative penalty. Could he still be Harris? Maybe...depends on facts on the ground....but he's starting with an anvil on him.

p.s. I'm no Romney or Jeb! fan....I've been saying since lawschool the problem with the Republican party is that they have a leadership more concerned with coddling elites than willing to fight. There was a moment in the debates where Romney could have turned it....he was asked about the Republican Party....he could have said "for far too long the Republican Party has been concerned with the rich and well off instead of working americans" but he's not that guy.
 
whatithink said:
Keystone is moving crude from CA to TX for refinery. Oil refined in the gulf is used domestically and also exported, where its cheaper to export (to MX for example) than ship to the East coast. If CA built their own refineries, it would be moot, but its (currently) cheaper to sent it to TX.

On the ME thing, we get very little from there.
  • The top five sources of U.S. total petroleum (including crude oil) imports by share of total petroleum imports in 2020 were
  • Canada52%
  • Mexico11%
  • Russia7%
  • Saudi Arabia7%
  • Colombia4%
  • The top five sources of U.S. crude oil imports by share of total crude oil imports in 2020 were
  • Canada61%
  • Mexico11%
  • Saudi Arabia8%
  • Colombia4%
  • Iraq3%

Agree, water is #1.

Everyone uses gimmicks. All gimmicks are used to stir an emotional reaction and not a fact based reaction. The cries about importing from the ME and therefore needing to be energy independent is an example of dog whistling to me. The facts are that we are not reliant on ME oil anymore. We still import it, but its a small %.
Click to expand...
Since you have a more detailed picture of petro than I do, can you explain the reasons for the difference in fuel costs between gas stations a few hours away from each other in California and Arizona. Recently I've seen unleaded in Phoenix at $2.95 and in San Diego for $5.09. Maybe those are both extremes but they were both in similar suburban areas. That's a $2.14, or 73% difference. From what I've read the gas tax in CA is $0.67 per gallon and AZ is $.019, which is a $0.48 difference. Where is the $1.66, or 56%, difference coming from?

Should we replace the "I Did That" Biden stickers on the gas pumps, with Newsom stickers instead?
 
watfly said:
My wife's uncle is in a nursing home and is now seriously ill with Covid. He is vaccinated as are the other nursing home residents, despite this, 15 other residents have Covid. Remind me again how effective the vaccination is against infection and why we should discriminate against those that are unvaccinated, but previously infected.
Click to expand...
This is not a scenario that "experts" want to discuss. A coherent discussion could be had but the vaccine mandate train has left the station, especially for adults. I think the 5-11 vaccine will be handled differently.
 
whatithink said:
The Ds should start breaking it up to get some wins.
Click to expand...
Like for instance if they broke it up into things actually related to infrastructure. If they did, it would pass.

Boring is why most people don't pay attention and we pass things that should not pass. Spend money we should not pass.

Most people pay no attention. Most of the rest that do, look at the headlines only. Very few bother to dig into various news of the day items.
 
whatithink said:
What does "this country as it was founded" mean and how are the left & their water boys on the march to destroy it?

Genuine Q.
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I draw a clear distinction between the left and liberals. By far the best explanation of that distinction I have seen and the best answer to your question comes from the below comparison by Dennis Prager. I could not say it better myself and fully endorse it:

_____________________________________________________________________________________


Left vs. Liberal

1. Race: This is probably the most obvious difference between liberal and left. The liberal position on race has always been a) the color of a person’s skin is insignificant and b) those who believe race is significant are racists. Meanwhile, the left believes the very opposite. To the left, it’s the liberal attitude toward race—it’s unimportant—that is racist. That’s why the University of California officially lists the statement, “There is only one race, the human race” as racist. And liberals have always been passionately committed to racial integration, while the left is increasingly committed to racial segregation—such as all-black dormitories and separate black graduations at universities.

2. Capitalism: Liberals have always been pro-capitalism, because liberals are committed to free enterprise and because they know capitalism is the only way to lift great numbers of people out of poverty. It is true that liberals want government to play a bigger role in the economy than conservatives do, but liberals never opposed capitalism, and they were never for socialism. Opposition to capitalism and advocacy of socialism are left-wing values.

3. Nationalism: Liberals believe in the nation-state, whether that nation is the United States, Brazil, or France. But because the left divides the world by class rather than by national identity, the left has always opposed nationalism. So, while liberals have always wanted to protect American sovereignty and borders, the left is for open borders. When the writers of Superman were liberals, Superman was a proud American whose very motto was “Truth, justice, and the American way.” But that all changed a few years ago, when left-wing writers took over the comic strip and had Superman renounce his American citizenship to be a citizen of the world. Free Courses for Free Minds .com The left has contempt for nationalism, seeing it as the road to fascism. Better that we should all be “citizens of the world” in a world without borders.

4. View of America: Liberals have always venerated America. Watch American films from the 1930s through the 1950s and you will be watching overtly patriotic, America-celebrating films—virtually all produced, directed and acted by liberals. Liberals were quite aware of America’s imperfections, but they agreed with Abraham Lincoln that America is “the last, best hope of earth.” The left, however, believes the left is the last, best hope of earth and regards America as racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, violent, and imperialistic.

5. Free speech: No one has been more committed than American liberals to the famous statement, “I wholly disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” But the left is leading the first widespread suppression of free speech in modern American history—from the universities to the tech companies that govern the internet to almost every other institution and place of work. Of course, the left claims to only oppose “hate speech.” But putting aside the fact that the left deems “hate speech” anything it differs with, protecting what you or I might consider hate speech is the entire point of free speech.

6. Western civilization: Liberals have always championed and sought to protect Western civilization. Liberals celebrate the West’s unique moral, philosophical, artistic, musical and literary achievements, and have taught them at virtually every university. The most revered liberal in American political history, President Franklin Roosevelt, often cited the need to protect Western civilization and even “Christian civilization.” Yet, when President Donald Trump spoke of the need to protect Western civilization in a speech in Warsaw, the left-wing media, also known as the mainstream media, denounced him. They argued that Western civilization is no better than any other and that “Western civilization” is just a euphemism for “white supremacy.” So, then, if liberalism and leftism are so different, why don’t liberals oppose the left? In a nutshell, because they have been taught all their lives to fear the right. But as one of the best[1]known liberals in America, Harvard Law School Professor Alan Dershowitz, said, “As a liberal, as an American, and as a Jew, I far more fear the left than the right.” Dear liberals: Conservatives are not your enemy. The left is.
 
Desert Hound said:
Like for instance if they broke it up into things actually related to infrastructure. If they did, it would pass.

Boring is why most people don't pay attention and we pass things that should not pass. Spend money we should not pass.

Most people pay no attention. Most of the rest that do, look at the headlines only. Very few bother to dig into various news of the day items.
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Its boring to me as they are arguing with themselves. Once they stop and come up with something, I'll pay attention to what they are proposing.
 
whatithink said:
Its boring to me as they are arguing with themselves. Once they stop and come up with something, I'll pay attention to what they are proposing.
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The problem with that is over the last decade or so, most major bills have passed without debate. By the time it gets to the floor it is too late. It is an up or down vote.

In the past you saw debates on the floor about the pros and cons.

You really don't see that anymore. So one has to pay attention during the sausage making process and put pressure on then.
 
watfly said:
Since you have a more detailed picture of petro than I do, can you explain the reasons for the difference in fuel costs between gas stations a few hours away from each other in California and Arizona. Recently I've seen unleaded in Phoenix at $2.95 and in San Diego for $5.09. Maybe those are both extremes but they were both in similar suburban areas. That's a $2.14, or 73% difference. From what I've read the gas tax in CA is $0.67 per gallon and AZ is $.019, which is a $0.48 difference. Where is the $1.66, or 56%, difference coming from?

Should we replace the "I Did That" Biden stickers on the gas pumps, with Newsom stickers instead?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't claim to have a more detailed picture. The price would be reflective of the costs to operate and how much you can get away with. If gas stations in AZ could get away with $5 per gallon, they would. I fill up at Costco. If going to CA, top up in Yuma (typically) and a one time top off in CA - and am shocked at the cost.
 
Desert Hound said:
The problem with that is over the last decade or so, most major bills have passed without debate. By the time it gets to the floor it is too late. It is an up or down vote.

In the past you saw debates on the floor about the pros and cons.

You really don't see that anymore. So one has to pay attention during the sausage making process and put pressure on then.
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Neither Rs or Ds are concerned with the plebs paying attention. As you said previously, they will sell the bits they think people like; and then squish in as much special interests (that the plebs would not like) as possible in side deals.
 
what-happened said:
This is not a scenario that "experts" want to discuss. A coherent discussion could be had but the vaccine mandate train has left the station, especially for adults. I think the 5-11 vaccine will be handled differently.
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Experts have been willing to discuss the scenario of breakthrough infections. This board just doesn’t like what they have to say:

There are breakthrough infections. These are more likely and more dangerous among people whose immune response is weak, even after vaccination. If you want to protect such people, improve protections at nursing homes and reduce cases in the surrounding community.

But, as soon as you talk about reducing cases in the surrounding community, people here attack whoever said it.
 
whatithink said:
Keystone is moving crude from CA to TX for refinery. Oil refined in the gulf is used domestically and also exported, where its cheaper to export (to MX for example) than ship to the East coast. If CA built their own refineries, it would be moot, but its (currently) cheaper to sent it to TX.

On the ME thing, we get very little from there.
  • The top five sources of U.S. total petroleum (including crude oil) imports by share of total petroleum imports in 2020 were
  • Canada52%
  • Mexico11%
  • Russia7%
  • Saudi Arabia7%
  • Colombia4%
  • The top five sources of U.S. crude oil imports by share of total crude oil imports in 2020 were
  • Canada61%
  • Mexico11%
  • Saudi Arabia8%
  • Colombia4%
  • Iraq3%

Agree, water is #1.

Everyone uses gimmicks. All gimmicks are used to stir an emotional reaction and not a fact based reaction. The cries about importing from the ME and therefore needing to be energy independent is an example of dog whistling to me. The facts are that we are not reliant on ME oil anymore. We still import it, but its a small %.
Click to expand...
The Bay Area already has too many refineries. And the gas prices are always high.

Chevron Richmond

Chevron Richmond Refinery is a vital part of the local community.
richmond.chevron.com richmond.chevron.com
www.phillips66.com

San Francisco Refinery

The Evolution of Rodeo Renewed The San Francisco Refinery consists of two facilities linked by our pipelines. The Santa Maria facility is located in Arroyo Grande, California, 200 miles south of San Francisco, California, while the Rodeo facility is located in the San Francisco Bay Area...
www.phillips66.com www.phillips66.com
 
whatithink said:
I wouldn't claim to have a more detailed picture. The price would be reflective of the costs to operate and how much you can get away with. If gas stations in AZ could get away with $5 per gallon, they would. I fill up at Costco. If going to CA, top up in Yuma (typically) and a one time top off in CA - and am shocked at the cost.
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I ran a gas station/A&W/Mini Mart as a court appointed receiver. I can tell you that there is some price fixing involved if you expect to get fuel from the jobber for your nationally branded gas station, but the markup on gas is very small (or at least used to be). Ignoring gas taxes, a 56% difference doesn't pass the smell test. Seems like something Newsom should look into, wouldn't you agree?
 
MacDre said:
The Bay Area already has too many refineries. And the gas prices are always high.

Chevron Richmond

Chevron Richmond Refinery is a vital part of the local community.
richmond.chevron.com richmond.chevron.com
www.phillips66.com

San Francisco Refinery

The Evolution of Rodeo Renewed The San Francisco Refinery consists of two facilities linked by our pipelines. The Santa Maria facility is located in Arroyo Grande, California, 200 miles south of San Francisco, California, while the Rodeo facility is located in the San Francisco Bay Area...
www.phillips66.com www.phillips66.com
Click to expand...
How much does it cost to build, buy, lease or rent a gas station the Bay Area? I would expect with property prices (& taxes probably) there being off the charts, that it is expensive and that prices are reflective of that.
 
MicPaPa said:
I could care less about Trump personally, in fact, you can put me down as “personality 0%”
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The only thing I'd add is that I differentiate between "personality" and "character". Two people with exactly the same perspectives may present those perspectives outwardly in very different ways. To me, this is "personality". Character is what is behind every action. My opinion of T's character was that it was worse than H - no small feat and not by a lot. Given how he handled the post-election process, I feel that opinion is further supported.
 
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