Vaccine

Funny how this works.

The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.

Science | AAAS

www.science.org www.science.org
 
NorCalDad said:
So you're equating kids with adults here in how they process things?

Obviously GG's posts aren't going to do anything here given the echo chamber that exists. But, I do think stories, like those on the subreddits, have likely convinced vax-hesitant folks to get vaccinated. When someone folks look up to falls to this virus, it has a very real impact on them.
Click to expand...

Yes, and that's the problem with leftism (conservatives have their own issues but I'm talking the issues with liberalism now). Many adults never grow up. You can't look at the divorce rate, the drugs and alcohol rate, the bankruptcy rate, the child abandonment rate and say hey people are the paradigms of virtue. Many people don't grow up and become capable, functioning adults. Liberalism often fails to acknowledge that and winds up making policy based on the assumption people are angels instead of real human beings with all the problems, biases and issues of real human beings.

There are two possible responses: paternalism (but then don't be surprised when the children rise up in rebellion against you when it gets heavy handed, as they will...Exhibit A: Donald Trump) or trust people to make their decision and to bear their own consequences.

At this point, posts like that aren't doing anything. They are just po'ing the last of the holdouts which are mostly doing it on principle or sheer stupidity or both. The post is just going to make the principled dig in their heels even more and isn't going to register with the stupid.
 
“The substantial number of infections, coupled with the increasing scientific evidence that natural immunity was durable, led some medical observers to ask why natural immunity didn’t seem to be factored into decisions about prioritising vaccination.”

www.bmj.com

Vaccinating people who have had covid-19: why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

The US CDC estimates that SARS-CoV-2 has infected more than 100 million Americans, and evidence is mounting that natural immunity is at least as protective as vaccination. Yet public health leadership says everyone needs the vaccine. Jennifer Block investigates When the vaccine rollout began in...
www.bmj.com www.bmj.com
 
Grace T. said:
Yes, and that's the problem with leftism (conservatives have their own issues but I'm talking the issues with liberalism now). Many adults never grow up. You can't look at the divorce rate, the drugs and alcohol rate, the bankruptcy rate, the child abandonment rate and say hey people are the paradigms of virtue. Many people don't grow up and become capable, functioning adults. Liberalism often fails to acknowledge that and winds up making policy based on the assumption people are angels instead of real human beings with all the problems, biases and issues of real human beings.

There are two possible responses: paternalism (but then don't be surprised when the children rise up in rebellion against you when it gets heavy handed, as they will...Exhibit A: Donald Trump) or trust people to make their decision and to bear their own consequences.

At this point, posts like that aren't doing anything. They are just po'ing the last of the holdouts which are mostly doing it on principle or sheer stupidity or both. The post is just going to make the principled dig in their heels even more and isn't going to register with the stupid.
Click to expand...

I think you just made an argument for mandates unless I'm mistaken.
 
NorCalDad said:
I think you just made an argument for mandates unless I'm mistaken.
Click to expand...

Like I told dad4, if you have the courage of conviction, do the mandate. I actually wouldn't be strongly opposed on principle to a state adult mandate I am opposed to it on the children because the science just doesn't support it benefiting that group and if we are going to do it, the adults should go first. I do oppose the federal/job mandate on the basis of legal principle.

But again, the choice is paternalism or let people make their own choices. If you choose paternalism, you have to deal with the consequences, which is the children will resist you and give you the finger. A facilities mandate will create an underclass particularly with minorities like it did in NY, a jobs mandate will exacerbate the labor problem and won't catch everyone (only those with large employers), or you can literally go in and drag people to get their shots. But as with everything, you'll pay the consequences (which we've seen in Australia).

If you are gonna do it, do it....otherwise all you are doing is talking....minds are pretty much made up at this point and the rhetoric has hardened positions. Stop bluffing. They are calling you on it.
 
GoldenGate said:
I am going to punt my response to the family and friends of all the Herman Cain Award recipient. Maybe listen to them. Virtually every Herman Cain Award winner's feeds ends like this, even when their dumbfuck anti-vax "I'm a lion" profile pics remain.View attachment 11824View attachment 11825View attachment 11826View attachment 11827View attachment 11828
Click to expand...
While the Herman Cain awards are intended to belittle dead people and not intended as a PSA, the two takeaways could be 1) its generally a good idea to get the vaccine and 2) if you don't get a vaccine don't brag about it on social media.
 
Grace T. said:
Like I told dad4, if you have the courage of conviction, do the mandate. I actually wouldn't be strongly opposed on principle to a state adult mandate I am opposed to it on the children because the science just doesn't support it benefiting that group and if we are going to do it, the adults should go first. I do oppose the federal/job mandate on the basis of legal principle.

But again, the choice is paternalism or let people make their own choices. If you choose paternalism, you have to deal with the consequences, which is the children will resist you and give you the finger. A facilities mandate will create an underclass particularly with minorities like it did in NY, a jobs mandate will exacerbate the labor problem and won't catch everyone (only those with large employers), or you can literally go in and drag people to get their shots. But as with everything, you'll pay the consequences (which we've seen in Australia).

If you are gonna do it, do it....otherwise all you are doing is talking....minds are pretty much made up at this point and the rhetoric has hardened positions. Stop bluffing. They are calling you on it.
Click to expand...

Two things we could do right now short of a mandate:

1. Recognize natural immunity.
2. Open up vaccination (particularly the J&J) to front line physicians offices and clinics.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1445204998422507520
 
Grace T. said:
Like I told dad4, if you have the courage of conviction, do the mandate. I actually wouldn't be strongly opposed on principle to a state adult mandate I am opposed to it on the children because the science just doesn't support it benefiting that group and if we are going to do it, the adults should go first. I do oppose the federal/job mandate on the basis of legal principle.

But again, the choice is paternalism or let people make their own choices. If you choose paternalism, you have to deal with the consequences, which is the children will resist you and give you the finger. A facilities mandate will create an underclass particularly with minorities like it did in NY, a jobs mandate will exacerbate the labor problem and won't catch everyone (only those with large employers), or you can literally go in and drag people to get their shots. But as with everything, you'll pay the consequences (which we've seen in Australia).

If you are gonna do it, do it....otherwise all you are doing is talking....minds are pretty much made up at this point and the rhetoric has hardened positions. Stop bluffing. They are calling you on it.
Click to expand...

That's fine.

You just said "Many people don't grow up and become capable, functioning adults". What does that mean in your mind? Are they capable of making sound decisions? If not, why not? How vast is this problem? 50%, 20%, 10%, etc? How would you rectify this problem for the long term?

I'm slowly figuring out the premise to many of your arguments. I think you hone in on parameters in a given moment versus what should or could be. So you might say "mandates don't work because of the division in the US" but you simultaneously think "yeah, everyone should just get vaccinated". I don't think we hear enough of the second train of thought which makes it easy to put you into a particular bucket. Of course, I could be completely wrong here.
 
Desert Hound said:
Actually they won't be statistically more effective.

Right now 450 or so deaths in the under 17 age group that has about 70 million members.

If vaxxes cut that to half...statistically in a group of 70 million it doesn't move the needle one bit.

There really is not need to rush and get them vaxxed before any long term studies can be done.
Click to expand...
I may not have artuculated that very well. I was being sarcastic. ages 5-12 are already do well with covid. To vaccinate them means you can now add them into your numbers of people vaccinated and helps with numbers that show vaccine effectiveness in mitigating hospitalization and death. Already happening by including 16 and up. Smoking mirrors. . Vaccinating them is insignificant in terms of disease management.
 
NorCalDad said:
That's fine.

You just said "Many people don't grow up and become capable, functioning adults". What does that mean in your mind? Are they capable of making sound decisions? If not, why not? How vast is this problem? 50%, 20%, 10%, etc? How would you rectify this problem for the long term?

I'm slowly figuring out the premise to many of your arguments. I think you hone in on parameters in a given moment versus what should or could be. So you might say "mandates don't work because of the division in the US" but you simultaneously think "yeah, everyone should just get vaccinated". I don't think we hear enough of the second train of thought which makes it easy to put you into a particular bucket. Of course, I could be completely wrong here.
Click to expand...

Because part of the problem is you want to put me "into a particular bucket". I'm an independent thinker that follows logic where it leads me (which early on led me to po the "COVID is flu" people, and then the "masks are better than vaccines" people). I'm neither a lib or a con and to the extent you can label me politically it's a Tulsi-loving, Sinema-supporting, Romney-hating libertarian.

The adult number isn't fixed and actually varies from issue to issue, but I think the non-adult % is pretty high. Again, that leaves you with a choice: paternalism or let people make their own decisions. I think in the Republic we have (assuming we are going to keep it), you have to let people make their own decisions....even if they make bad choices. Vaccines are a little bit different because there are externalities involved but in this case the externalities (if vaccinated people can still transmit) aren't overwhelming in one direction, which makes the issue of a mandate a bit of a toss up (assuming you exclude the naturally immune, children, don't underclass people).
 
Desert Hound said:
Actually they won't be statistically more effective.

Right now 450 or so deaths in the under 17 age group that has about 70 million members.

If vaxxes cut that to half...statistically in a group of 70 million it doesn't move the needle one bit.

There really is not need to rush and get them vaxxed before any long term studies can be done.
Click to expand...

The train has left the station. Parents are knocking down doors to get their kids vaccinated. The doors will fly open once the FDA approval comes through, which is likely going to happen very soon. Parents are not going to wait for any type of long term studies. FDA clearance technically has already cleared the path for off label Pfizer vaccination for those under 12. Most prescribers will likley not vaccinate for ethical reasons but they can if they want.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, under 12 vaccines are coming and many will gladly have their kids vaccinated. Mandates will make it very difficult for parents to have a choice, especially in public school districts.
 
Desert Hound said:
Funny how this works.

The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.

Science | AAAS

www.science.org www.science.org
Click to expand...

The natural immunity can only be acquired by first having the disease. That course of behavior has considerably more risk of severe consequences and death than taking the vaccine.

But I repeat myself.
 
espola said:
The natural immunity can only be acquired by first having the disease. That course of behavior has considerably more risk of severe consequences and death than taking the vaccine.

But I repeat myself.
Click to expand...
To take a line out of your book..."I'm missing something", who proposed that it was better to go out and get the virus then to get the vaccination? I'm fairly confident that no one on this forum has made that recommendation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top