The more apt comparison is that being white is cheating. White players have a ridiculous amount of "unfair advantages" over black children. They have generational wealth that black families do not. Their grandparents and great grandparents never had to worry about getting a shit education because they grew up on the wrong side of segregated schools. Their grandparents never had to worry about the days when it was legal to deny employment based on color. They never had to lose breadwinners to prison for minor drug convictions now that it turns out that the opioid crisis has turned a ton of white folk into addicts. And they still don't need to worry that the cops will beat them to death because of their skin color. There is zero debate that it is "unfair" to let white girls play elite soccer. There are hundreds upon hundreds of white mini-Karens who would be shoved right off the bench and out of the sport if fair number of black kids could even afford to play soccer and also pay for all the extra training to which white kids have access but they don't.
Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
- Start date
The more apt comparison is that being white is cheating. White players have a ridiculous amount of "unfair advantages" over black children. They have generational wealth that black families do not. Their grandparents and great grandparents never had to worry about getting a shit education because they grew up on the wrong side of segregated schools. Their grandparents never had to worry about the days when it was legal to deny employment based on color. They never had to lose breadwinners to prison for minor drug convictions now that it turns out that the opioid crisis has turned a ton of white folk into addicts. And they still don't need to worry that the cops will beat them to death because of their skin color. There is zero debate that it is "unfair" to let white girls play elite soccer. There are hundreds upon hundreds of white mini-Karens who would be shoved right off the bench and out of the sport if fair number of black kids could even afford to play soccer and also pay for all the extra training to which white kids have access but they don't.
So you're saying we should follow the cultural beliefs of the Middle East, China, Russia, India and Africa? So you're saying stoning trans people is back on the table? Is this also your excuse for how you feel about gay marriage? But ok, take your Christianity and shove it up your ass.
That's a hell of a stretch.
Almost none of your examples are generally viewed as cheating.
Over half of the country thinks it is cheating if you enter an XY athlete in an adult women's event.
Long term, that isn't tenable. Eventually, the rules will get fixed. Probably one sport at a time, after someone like Thomas embarrassed the standards body.
I can understand and appreciate this position; however, in the cases of true gender dysphoria you're likely to achieve a better outcome if the hormone treatments are started pre-puberty (not sure if that's the case for surgery though). I think both sides paint the transgender issue with too broad of a brush. I think each case is different and may not involve gender dysphoria, but may involve some other issue whether mental or physical. Hence why we see some transitions later regretted by individuals. No question that strict protocols should be in place including extensive counseling/support/training for both parent and child before a transition should occur. I believe that most professionals recommend a period of social transition prior to hormonal and surgical.
Tough call and I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of a parent with a transgender child. I know a parents of a FTM kid that felt their decision came down in part to having a "dead daughter, or an alive son".
Regardless, transitioning and competition are two totally different issues.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
I like this approach in theory, but it will be nearly impossible to implement with the existing structure of scholarships in college for athletics without creating MtF college sports (and, then why not FtM?). Allocated money is driving a significant part of the debate.
Answer above, sorry, I guess I should have mentioned large physical advantage.
Playing in accordance with the rules is also not generally viewed as cheating, because it isn't cheating.
LOL, and thanks to genetics, Black athletes also have an unfair advantage over whites. Gotta love Natural Nature! I’m not complaining though and 100% support it. Because it is natural.
You are a left wing extremist no better than your arch enemy Trump Supporter. Maybe change your name to Gaslighter.
a. The question is in the details. If you phrase it as you did I wouldn't be surprised. If you phrase it "do you support an athlete who is xy playing in the female division who underwent the change due to a psychological condition and not to seek an unfair advantage, and adequate steps have been taken to ensure there is no undo advantage". Again, the question of whether we can get to an undo advantage is a scientific one which has not be fully answered yet and may vary from sport to sport.
b. "none of your examples are generally viewed as cheating". Oh come on. When my kid was younger and a kid that was full adult entered into the field, everyone would yell out "hey that's not fair....that kid is probably playing on false papers....check his papers". Whenever my kid stepped onto the field and there was a team that recruited tall athletes that towered over them, same thing. Whenever there was a team that played physical and the ref didn't blow the whistle, same thing. I've seen the same as a ref. We've heard the same on these forums. There are even recorded fights from such play that belie your position. Your statement is just false.
c. So this is now a mob thing? Rule by the majority? Is it the majority in California or the majority in Texas or the majority in the US?
Because we are getting to the point where there will be a different answer in different places. Guess because the majority thought black kids shouldn't play with white kids in some states that was fine, because the majority decided.
d. Yes, the rules will get fixed but not necessarily in the way you like it. In the short term, there's a split between the red and blue states. The blue states will continue to refine protocols and pursue the science with no limitations on youth sports. The red states will outright ban. We'll have an issue where they'll be a competition in the red state and some red state will overstep its bounds and ban a blue state athlete. The feds will then have to step in. Where the feds end up depend in part on what the science says 10 years from now, but it could be separate leagues for some sports and close enough for others.
The current default is that scholarships are generally impossible/hard for trans athletes to secure because coaches aren't sure if the play eligible guidelines will be met. Separate leagues would change that, as well as address the overlooked from of FTM.
Who mentioned Gay marriage or how I feel about it? Again, you and your assuming ways showing what how well you parallel the racists. You are pretty much just a liberal skinhead.
thirteenknots
SILVER ELITE
It's CHEATING.
You can " Gaslight " all you want, but it will not
change the TRUTH.
It's CHEATING.
You're the one who said the U.S. and State of California should be following the cultural beliefs of the most repressive regions on earth. Or are you just limiting them to the repressive cultural beliefs that you agree with?
The thing about it is what is underlying dad4 and 13knotts and some others assumptions is a moral judgment, which is why they jump to "it's cheating". It's the same kind of treatment they dolled out to gays 10 or so years ago. The moral assumption here is "it's just wrong...they were born in their biological sex, they should stay that way".
The hard left's approach, that anyone can declare a gender, and that gender is some sort of false cultural construct, is just as wrong. If anything the biology of trans brains shows that it isn't a cultural construct, but there is something very different in the way men and women present. There may very well be people who present "neither" but the approach that gender is a construct undermines even some of the core feminist ideals we have fought so hard for.
The correct way to view this is as a disability. Since it is something akin to a disability, accommodations must be accorded, where feasible. On the youth level, it's easy because we don't really care about things like testosterone. On the college level, it's a balancing act taking various factors involved, and if that accommodation ultimately cannot be accorded, you must afford separate facilities as an accommodation.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
Absolutely. We are focused on a symptom of a much bigger issue. There's nothing wrong with attempting to solve this particular symptom, but in terms of the problems faced with transitioning and the choice to transition, it's not that significant.
Moral? It's scaring women right now. Lia is all we have to go by Grace T. Protect all the women and all kids first before you send grown men at 6'4" exposing themselves with their package to the girls. That is the real issue. I just got some crazy news that I can prove yet but Mars shared about one males playing with girls and making millions. It will come out.
All the following can be true at the same time:
a. The issue of locker rooms and sports participation are different for which different answers should be drawn.
b. The "eeek, a penis" reactions regarding Lia are overblown.
c. Lia should not be exposing to people who don't consent. If true, it's shitty behavior.
d. The story may not be exactly as presented because it is being presented by partisans with an ax to grind.
Maybe its convenient semantics to get you to your accommodations position, but I would take issue with you calling my son's friend disabled, or saying he has a disability (he is my friend as well). I suspect transgenders and their families would take issue as well. Let's not overthink this, the term transgender works fine (at least as we stand here today). Their abilities are just fine, so they don't need to be lumped into some other category that doesn't apply.
After I beat your ass in the pool, I'll see you in the locker room for shower and dress up time. This is freaking insane. I got EOTL calling me a horrible person to children brother. Dude doesn't even want kids to be born but when they do hatch, he only cares for the .02% of the human race. I'm sure were all following along with all the "cards" this avatar plays with.
It's really hard to do that conversation though since we don't seem to agree on the construct. The right partisans seem to think that this is a morality issue....that people are just deciding they are other genders and that is wrong. The left partisans seem to think this is a cultural construct issue....gender is fluid and there really isn't such a thing as a man or a woman. The right way to view this is through the lens of disabilities and what accommodations society extends. It's also a medical question therefore about what is the best course of treatment where there are no good ones. It requires a lot of expertise. Far more than any I have. It's also far more complicated than anything we debated on COVID, which was fairly easy in comparison. And as I've pointed out, a lot of the research in this stuff is really in its infancy...it's only been about 5 years since it's been confirmed that there is a physiological component to it, and the stuff on sports research is currently ongoing and we are right at the end of the beginning of it. Bear in mind as well, any movement on our understanding of this issue was completely derailed for 2 years due to COVID.