That's a fair critique. If you have more realistic numbers happy to use those. It's certainly not equivalent, however.
Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
- Start date
That's a fair critique. If you have more realistic numbers happy to use those. It's certainly not equivalent, however.
Cheer was excluded because, in 1972, the athletic directors would have expanded the cheer squads and completely ignored all other women’s sports.
I also thought men’s sports had more player interest. Turn out I was wrong. They do surveys, and overall youth participation rates are about equal.
Your son is just facing the fact that he is in a second tier men’s sport, and second tier sports get less attention. So, there are fewer scholarships, but he is facing less skilled athletes. If he preferred football, there would be more scholarships, but he would be facing better athletes.
As to your first point, cheer, yes but it's still an artificial line that was drawn: cheer is not a sport. We can argue whether it was the right or wrong decision, but it's still, in the end, line drawing.
As to your second point, o.k. good to know. Title IX sure seems successful that way then, in participation.
Men's gridiron football is also pretty arbitrary when it comes to determining who is a "better athlete" which is also dependent on the lines we draw. Quarterbacks certain have great running skills, great hand eye coordination and get as much training as elite soccer goalkeepers (if not more). Receivers too, less so than quarterbacks. It's hard to jump into quarterback if you haven't been doing it since childhood....less hard as a receiver jumping in freshman year, though still difficult. The line though sometimes is just selected based on physical size...yes there's some technical stuff they need to learn....yeah they also need to develop a certain mentality....but whether the linesman (who is getting the scholarship) is more of an athlete than the goalkeeper is an open question, let alone say a female figure skater. Again there's no objective "fairness" here...it is an illusion...the argument you just made is that it is capitalism (which has a lot of merits, but "fairness" isn't necessarily one of them depending on how you define the term).
Pollo Elastico
BRONZE
So the sports in college have to offer an equal amount of scholarships to men and women.
And now what many are advocating is to allow men who wear dresses to take a scholarship reserved for women?
It is crazy.
And now we have schools, gov agencies playing along producing documents, etc with silly stull like "people who menstrate" or "people who give birth". Who are those people? Women. Who cannot do those things? Men. And yet we increasingly have an Orwellian type situation being shoved down are throats in a variety of ways....
One of which is they we are to pretend that it is fine and ok for men to take spots in womens sports...and oh yeah by the way...call them women.
I dont care what people do personally. If some guy wants to wear a dress and pretend he is a woman that is fine by me. I do have an issue with him playing in womens sports.
I keep seeing phrases in here like "men's sports" and "women's sports."
Can someone identify the sports where people are smacking the ball with their unique genitalia?
Otherwise, we have sports in which all genders can play together equally, but we have different brackets or leagues based on a variety of things, some of which are correlated (but not perfectly) to level of play, some for safety, some for convenience, and some for fellowship/social reasons.
Can someone identify the sports where people are smacking the ball with their unique genitalia?
Otherwise, we have sports in which all genders can play together equally, but we have different brackets or leagues based on a variety of things, some of which are correlated (but not perfectly) to level of play, some for safety, some for convenience, and some for fellowship/social reasons.
Wait a minute, you are saying that some girl can get dress up in a uniform and kick a ball and take away a spot in a collegiate classroom from my son, who scored better than her in every test and academic grades? Some people take it as gospel that because it is status quo it must be right. But maybe the current lines weren't drawn by God and we can try different things.
As a staunch republican I may have protested Title 9, so I have nothing to be upset about now unless I just hate change of any kind.
a. again, you can have a separate standard for scholarships than who should play ECNL kiddie ball.
b. not all women can menstrate and not all women can give birth. It's not a good test.
c. the question you haven't answered is why do you have an issue playing in women's sports? What's the objection other than "I don't like them" or "I don't like it". Those are feelings, not rational lines being drawn.
d. do you have the same issue with women who become men if they choose to continue to play in women's sports? presumably then you are o.k. with the fully bearded, testosterone taking ftm continuing to play in the women's division
e. reading in the subtext, it's pretty apparent you do have an issue "if some guy wants to wear and dress and pretend he is a woman". The word "pretend" minimizes a situation which is otherwise horrible (you really think someone would voluntarily go through all that just because they want to "pretend")
Pollo Elastico
BRONZE
We not just have one ECNL team. And boys and girls can try out for that team?
The reason as we know is few if any girls would make the team. That is why we have girls and boys groups.
It is a good test. You may have some women that cannot menstrate or give birth. However you dont have any men that can give birth or menstrate. Rather straightforward. Biology determines that.
The issue is there is a reason we created the divisions in the first place. It allows girls to play. If they had to compete for a spot on a boys ecnl team, they are not making those teams. It is why womens national teams lose to younger boys ecnl teams. And that is not feeling based. That is entirely rational.
The issue I have is women cannot become men. Nor can men become women. Surgically removing a penis or breasts does not suddenly make the person the other sex. They can dress as they like and act as they like. But the fact remains, surgery or drugs does not transform a man to a woman or a woman to a man.
It is pretending.
It is about as crazy as me one day declaring I am Asian or African American and expecting to receive minority scholarships, loans designated for minority biz, etc. I could start speaking Japanese, dressing in traditional clothing, taking on cultural mannerisms, etc. And yet none of that would make me Japanese. Dressing up as a women, doing a surgery, etc will not make me a woman either.
Soccer Dad & Ref
SILVER ELITE
It's obvious Elastic Chicken has no respect for people that don't feel comfortable staying in the gender they were born with. Refusing to acknowledge Gender dysphoria or to have empathy for those experiencing it is cruel.
At NCAA Division 1, it's 9.9 to 14 for men/women soccer. Or were you referring to something else?
Pollo Elastico
BRONZE
Not cruel at all.
A man should not be allowed to play on a women's team....no matter how comfortable or uncomfortable he feels about his body.
What is farcical is to allow men or boys to take spots reserved for girls/women. That is not only farcical...it is cruel. We created these divisions so women/girls can compete either individually or on a team. In college they even receive scholarships. A man feeling uncomfortable does not mean they get to take a scholarship or a spot on a womens team that should go to an actual woman.
Nor should we hear the press LAUD the womens records a man in college now holds in swimming. How can a man told women's records.? In a sane world that wouldn't happen.
Happened again
SILVER ELITE
Oh come on. This is a test than NO MAN can pass, no matter how hard they try. I wish they could do both, would make me very happy and giggly.
GoldenGate
GOLD
The spots are not reserved for biological women. You just want them to be because you are transphobic. If your little princess isn't good enough to compete against a trans girl, her career is just about over regardless of the trans girl.
I do not believe there is a single trans woman in college who has received an athletic scholarship. Your irrational fear that a trans woman will take away a scholarship from a biological women is, well, irrational. Worse, it is a bullshit argument because trans people who manage to excel despite all the abuse they suffer growing up are typically far more deserving of financial aid than virtually every spoiled little soccer princess.
GoldenGate
GOLD
Uh, the issue is there is a reason "we" created the divisions that allow trans participation in the first place. Again, you seem to forget that the divisions you want to exist don't. Remember, you're the petulant child who is whining that you aren't getting things your way.
Would you feel better if "we" relabeled girls ECNL as "girls ECNL, which we would like to make clear for those transphobes out there who think a biology textbook is a soccer rulebook that we mean both birth and gender identity"?
Feel free to create your own transphobic church league if you can't take it.
Highlander
SILVER ELITE
My suggestion, don't try to talk sense to anyone who thinks trans women should be able to play in women's sports. I guess this is what they meant when they said the "future is female" - the future is female for trans females. LMAO
Again you are conflating. What happens with the swimming records is entirely different from what happens in ECNL kiddie ball. What happens with scholarships is different than ECNL kiddie ball. Sweeping them all in one is lazy reasoning. That's one red flag.
Other people have raised the performance, safety or genetics (purity concern). You've raised another one: participation. Firstly, that assumes the slots in youth soccer are limited...they aren't....there are plenty of teams that still struggle to make restore. Second, you are basically sentencing the ftm in this case to not be able to play because they simply can't compete (after a time) with the other boys....the hormones will make them weaker and even if they aren't on hormones it's not like they will be body building with the rest of the team since they'll want to keep a more feminine shape. Third, you totally ducked the question about then if it's o.k. for the ftm to play with the girls despite the testosterone or the full beard. That in and of itself is a second red flag for your motivations.
You also said you "don't care what people do personally." I note that's not enough to absolve you from bigotry. Saying "I support the right of blacks to eat at the diner counter but I certainly wouldn't be friends with one" is certainly better than "segregation now and forever" but it's also not bigotry free. Don't feel too bad....we have way to much cancel culture and everyone is, to quote a phrase, just a little bit racist. People should endeavor, however, to separate feelings from reasoning, and to separate preconceived notions and biases from logic. You haven't done that...you haven't answered the questions why does it all matter other than this issue of participation, which cuts both ways.
The side that says mtf should have unfettered access to women's sports regardless of the level and the circumstances is just as bad as the side that says never and under no circumstances. It's an appeal to emotion, full of preconceived ideas, and not thought out without any rational limiting principles. Neither of you is making any sense.
Highlander
SILVER ELITE
BS - Any logical female who is truly trying to compete would say female trans athletes should not compete against females. Go play co-ed leagues if you are trans...just don't take a females spot on a team or in a swim meet where it is about competition. How can any logical individual deny this? Even if its only one trans female athlete doing this, it's wrong.
GoldenGate
GOLD
The real problem with your analogy, however, is that there is no soccer league that is reserved for biological Asians or African Americans. In fact, if someone tried to do that in the U.S., it would be illegal. In other words, you are missing the point. The argument is not whether a trans girl is a biological girl, which no one is making anyway. The issue is whether a private company should be allowed to decide that both can play in the same league.
You're upset that USYS, ECNL, US Soccer, the NWSL, the NCAA, the Olympics, and others allow transgender participation provided certain conditions are met. You have come out on the anti-free market, anti-capitalist, anti-constitutional, anti-inclusivity side of the argument.
Because sports aren't solely about competition, at least on the youth level. If youth sports were purely about competition, we would, for example, dope/testosterone test and rigorously suss out the fake birth certificates. Sports are also about socialization and getting kids exercise. Depending on the level, we might take the competition more seriously. On the rec level, who care amongst a bunch of 8 year olds. At the ECNL level, who cares as well...it's in essence glorified rec that you pay for...no one is going to care in 20 years that you won the stupid tournament trophy.
At the D1 college level or the academy youth level, it begins to get more serious...careers, records, national team participation is at stake. The girls do not have an equivalent academy youth level and the play level for ECNL is very broad. Perhaps if they did, where USWNT and Olympic recruitment is at stake, it would be a different story. But that's not the reality we are dealing with. It's not the cards that are dealt.
Further, if performance is your dividing line, presumably: 1. you are o.k. with testosterone testing (including testing that might catch some girls with some unnaturally high testosterone levels) because if you are going to go after someone, you have to go out after the cheaters first, 2. you'd be o.k. with some mtf who prior to 12/13/14 takes puberty blockers before entering the full swing of puberty to participate with the girls, and 3. you'd be o.k. with the ftm to continue to compete with the women for as long as they so desire, provided they aren't on testosterone. If you aren't, then something other than performance may be motivating you.